Forum menu
Things you need before you worry too much about geo/travel
1) A light frame (carbon it is then)
2) Light strong wheels (ally if you're carbophobic)
3) Long travel dropper post (so UP is right up, and down is right down)
4) Good quality suspension, with ideally some lock outs
And then the one that imo, really makes the biggest difference, and yet is always going to be a compromise - tyres! The question becomes: "how light /slick a tyre can i fit to make the uphill bits easier, before i fall off / puncture the whole time going down" Here, there is little that tech can do to help, although some tyres try to combine low central rolling resistance with aggressive side knobs for grip (which only work if you remember to lean the bike in the turns....)
For me, i HATE punctures, and HATE skidding down hill out-of-control with both wheels locked up, so i generally build the lightest bike i can afford, but then fit heavy, grippy tyres, and put up with the drag.
I certainly don't really think that 20mm of travel here or there actually makes much difference (given that your legs have feet of travel (sic) themselves. One thing i do try to have though is two sets of wheels, fitted with different tyres, to allow me to make a choice before any given ride as to the best flavour of tyre to run for that individual ride. So, i it's mainly an upwards, low gnarcore type XC tour, i'll grab the lightweight wheels with the more XC tyres fitted, but if it's a winch up, smash it down affair the heavy wheels with the SuperGravity tyres go on!
My mate bought a capra, 160/160mm bike. It was carbon and light ish, but he always seemed to get dragged slower on it. He's since changed it to a white 13/120mm bike and much prefers it.
I went for a 140/130 bike and it's been great up and down hill. It was super at whistler with the fork extended to 160mm.
My answer for the peaks, Scotland, lakes, trail centers and the odd holiday is a geometron 🙂
My answer for the peaks, Scotland, lakes, trail centers and the odd holiday is a geometron
I part agree with this and part diss agree.
I've got a G13 29er and a G16 27.5er
They're both more than capable in the steep tech but the G13 is so much better on Alpine climbs. While the G16 is great for smashing more hi speed DH runs
The thing you need to focus on is the shape of the bike rather than the travel.
Slack and long with short travel is what you will appreciate most for S Wales off piste trails.
Orange segment, managed 100 miles in 11 hours at this year's twenty-four 12.
Orange segment, managed 100 miles in 11 hours at this year's twenty-four 12.
A demon on descents.
And then the one that imo, really makes the biggest difference, and yet is always going to be a compromise – tyres!
I suspect this tbh. Sure the bike has its foibles climbing and the position makes me want to spin rather than hammer up, but that wouldn't really account for slowness once I get used to it.
But they aren't mega beefy downhill tyres, just Hans Danmpf tubeless.
Which are draggy AF for XC
So what should I look at for large tyres with reasonable grip for soft loamy type trails that will be less draggy than HD? In 26?
“So what should I look at for large tyres with reasonable grip for soft loamy type trails that will be less draggy than HD? In 26?”
I like the DHR2 2.3 Exo Dual compound on the back for everything. It’ll be slowest and least grippy in 26” (if that size exists), fastest and grippiest in 29”. Foam inserts help in the rocks. The same tyre in a 2.4 is much more gnarly and slow rolling.
Sorry to say a change of tyres aren't going to make you fastest down the trails at Pontypool and also over a 100K loop over the Beacons.*
*or even a change of bike...
shit bike with shit tyres and shit rider isn't ever going to be particularly quick or skillful anywhere.
Stop worrying about it.
it's tedious AF
BOOM! Geex is in the house...
Having ridden some of the more well-known steep-off piste trails in those parts, you don’t really need a lot of travel, more the right angles and low standover/as long a dropper as you can fit for the steep.
I’ve done some 1000m descent days, with some localish riders on Whyte s-150 or t-130’s in the Wylie and Tirpentwys areas while I was on my Bird AM9, and they weren’t slowed down or holding back! Some of the newer slack XC bikes like the SC Tallboy, or the Yeti SB-100 would probably be ok if they have low standover and you’re not planning to ride that stuff for the whole ride?
Sorry to say a change of tyres aren’t going to make you fastest down the trails at Pontypool and also over a 100K loop over the Beacons.*
Where did you get that from?
I want to go quicker because I'm time limited, it turns a 3hr ride into a 4hr ride at which point it starts to get too long to fit into my day.
Patriot is air sprung. It’s the last model year of the old ones, in XC build.
Patriot 66? wasn't that a ~160mm travel bike? XC build/air shock or not, that is always going to wallow a bit.
I suppose the question you're really asking is can you use your current bike for mile munching and Gnarr?
And the answer is probably yes life might be better with some adaptations fo course, consider a newer shock with some vol reducers and perhaps a low speed compression switch to flip for climbs there should be one about in your required size, and look at some more sensible tyre (weight and Drag wise)...
of course you're going to want to put the heftier kit and (assuming its plusher) the old shock back on for uplift days or whatever, which essentially means swapping stuff about, which will get old and you're mind will eventually turn to wanting a new bike and for what you describe yourself as wanting My shortlist include a Whyte T129, Bird AM9, a stumpy Evo and as you already have an orange a stage 5, all 29ers
I want to go quicker because I’m time limited, it turns a 3hr ride into a 4hr ride at which point it starts to get too long to fit into my day.
You are talking to Geex and have just recited one of the main justifications for an E-bike... Do you want an E-bike? Because that's what He's going to recommend next...
Patriot 66? wasn’t that a ~160mm travel bike? XC build/air shock or not, that is always going to wallow a bit.
Patriot 7+ with 170mm travel, and 66 SL ATA on the front. It does wallow around on tech climbs but I can ignore this. It's the spinning up fire roads that takes forever. Thinking about it, it's likely a combination of riding position (seat angle is about 72), tyres and the fact I'm just not used to flats.
I'm considering getting rid, so the question is what replaces it? On the face of it, any Enduro bike, but I've no idea what they are like to ride in XC mode which is necessary to get to the trails that it'd be bought for.
And I'm not averse to E bikes except on cost grounds.
Hightower?
I had no problem riding my Trek Slash from Cardiff to Dreathen Woods yesterday if that's of any help. Good few laps an all.
TBH anything's going to go faster than a Patriot. And I speak from experience.
Any of the modern crop of trail/enduro bikes (140-160mm travel) should be fine - lock out the shock and fork and pump up the tyres for the road/XC stuff, then unlock and let a bit of air out for the fun stuff. Lock them out again for the ride home. Job's a good 'un.
Canyon strive with the shapeshifter tech? 130mm rear on the road/XC then a 160mm enduro rig on the downs.
130mm-150mm light full sus ought to fit the bill. I personally don't want that much travel for my local trails and don't do much trail centre/gnarly stuff these days, so my choice of bike is a Cotic Flare.
130mm travel Fox 34mm forks, X fusion shock, 150mm dropper, not a particularly light build, but it doesn't weigh a ton and does everything I ask of it incredibly well. 650b just works for me as an all round wheel size for a bit of everything, and I do like 29ers. I keep thinking I want/need a 29er XC bike as it'd be faster on some of my local terrain/rides. But I've been there twice before and the Flare really is the sweet spot for me, it pedals well, zips along the flat, is good on the ups and flatters me on the downs. Added bonus is that I don't feel beaten to shit after rides on the open hill where it's bumpy AF and a hardtail gives you some serious stick. And, no it's not all technique, you have to sit and pedal on a lot of that bumpy crap.
Watch this:
...then go an buy a Genius.
It's always going to be a bit slower, but if you swap out the rear for something in a faster compound that should speed you up a bit. I was running MM front and rear (trailstar/Addix soft) and switching the rear to a NN in Addix speedgrip made a fair difference, without making any significant difference to how you can ride it down descents.
(It's on a Speicialized Stumpy Evo 29er, so 135/140mm of relative heft. I've done 10UTB solo on it with faster tyres on as I knew the HT would beat me up too much. So I certainly don't beat your Patriot, but I'd happily ride that if it was what I had and it fitted me.)
I've got a 2017 Five and 2016 P7 - pretty much interchangeable in terms of what they can handle, which is pretty much everything (apart from jumps, which I don't do anyway). I use both for 20-35 milers, on moorland single track, Lakes epics, steep technical cheeky trails in Calderdale and the Lakes. I'd happily ride either in the Alps too, though the P7 would beat me up too much nowadays if I rode it all day, day after day. I always used to ride Patriots until around 5 or 6 years ago when I bought my first Five. My current Five is the most fun and versatile bike I've owned, set up with 150mm 36s and decent Maxxis tyres. Weighs around 30-31lb all in.
How do NNs compare to HDs?
Patriot 7+!!!??!
Awesome, but that is most definately a "Mini DH" bike.
You are lugging about too much metal with a DH bias, it's certainly not an "XC" bike...
So if it's a new bike is budget a factor, would you be looking used, and will sir be keeping the old Patriot for Uplift and Alpine smashing duties to save the new dandyhorse?
I would say don't focus on the travel too much, anything in the 120-150mm ballpark can be made to suit the mileage and trails fun application.
Despite getting on well with my stumpy I do struggle to ignore the AM9 as a VFM Gnarr capable trail bike not a million miles away from what I am already riding but with just a bit more Grrrrr to it... YMMV of course.
If you're looking 2nd hand there are probably a lot of decent options about depending on wheel size preferences, which brands and suspension layouts you'll consider...
fuel ex? 2017-19. some cheap ones about. the blurb says it'd work on your stuff anyway
yes i have just bought one, or a frame anyway
marin rift zone?
it’s certainly not an “XC” bike
No I know, I already have one of those that I use weekly. This is for the occasional ride seeking out the hard stuff.
So if it’s a new bike is budget a factor, would you be looking used, and will sir be keeping the old Patriot for Uplift and Alpine smashing duties to save the new dandyhorse?
No, I'd be replacing it with something that's similar capabilities (or even better, based on improvements to geometry) but is better at riding along and up. TBH given the rocky trails I sometimes have to climb just bigger wheels would help a lot.
You're probably right about the travel. What I like about it is the whole package - big grippy tyres, flats (I do my XC riding in SPDs), mega brakes (Hope V2s) slack angles and so on. It has adjustable geo and I run it in the slack setting too which lowers the CoG. It does ride along and up much better in the steeper setting but it's nowhere near as much fun on the descents.
As for too much metal - it's 'only' about 31lbs.
I would have to replace it with a s/h bike, I might be looking around the £1k mark. The bike is so old it's just not upgradeable in any meaningful sense.
I think you and Weeksy should throw all your spare parts in a bin, have a few beers together and will eventually both build yourselves the bikes you can't name out of each others hopes & dreams.
I mean that kindly coming from a former Indecisive. 😉
I might take out out on my local loop to time myself. Usually takes 1h10 if I take it easy and my PB is 1h01 (annoyingly) but from memory it's about 1h25 on the Patriot.
I mean that kindly coming from a former Indecisive.
Heh. I'm not actually indecisive when it comes to this stuff - just window shopping, it won't be for ages yet.
I replaced a 2013 Five with a long, slack 130/120mm 29er (FlareMax). It's faster along and up while being even more capable and confidence inspiring on the way back down. The only thing it's not as good at is super tight turns, but since I ride mainly natural Scottish tracks I don't see any downsides.
Personally, in your situation, I'd be looking for:
29er - I know some prefer smaller wheels but if you are looking for speed along and up then it's hard to deny that they roll over stuff more easily.
Slack - More confidence/capability on the way down at the expense of not being quite as good in super tight situations.
Shortish travel - I know longer travel bikes climb a lot better than they used to but shorter should still be faster along and up.
I use a 28.5lbs Mondraker Foxy XR Carbon for both Enduro and XC. That's with 2.6R and 2.8F NN. It's neither optimised for one or the other but it's really good at both and makes my 1 bike cycling life simpler.
I use a Bird Aeris 145. Does everything for me, even did the South Downs Way in a day back in July.
I just run 2 wheelsets and swap linkages, so 145mm travel and Hunt trail wide wheels for "xc" and 160mm and DT Swiss E1700 (the most bombproof wheels I've ever used) for uplifts etc.
There are a lot of tight turns on these trails. Often on a significant slope too, we're talking lines through trees rather than built trails.
I might consider 27.5 just because I already have two 29ers.
Sorry I am not lucky in my attempts to help lol. I assumed the SLX chainset had the granny bolt holes like the XT, but clearly not the case...
I suppose I got away with 28t because I have switched to Sram 10-42...
Five for 27.5 or new, slacker Stage 5 if you decide to go 29. There was a very nice used Five in large on Bike Active the other day - great price, though the yellow is an acquired taste. Guy Kestevan has a 2020 Five review coming up soon.
Hmmm,
£1k for a used bike with ~120-150mm travel and more modern geometry?
I've grown to like 29ers (I took a while to try one TBH), but given budget is a constraint I'd be "Wheel size agnostic" (and probably axle standards too) and look more at geometry and layout...
From the fact that you can get along with the Patriot better for distance work in the higher BB (more upright seat angle) position that suggests you need to consider the frames layout for pedalling more i.e. ~73+* degree seat angle? and more reach...
Given you'll be looking at used bikes a handful of years old so maybe not quite as bang up to the minute in Geometry terms I'd not get too hung up on Head angle, if it's under 67ish that'll probably compare OK with the Patriot and there's always tweaking options like anglesets and offset bushes if you do want to adjust things. Perhaps look for an inch or so more reach than the patriot though, it's really more of a 00's DH layout so the front will be relatively compact... I reckon bikes made in about the last ~5 years will probably address some of the things you are looking for.
Having said that it seems you can pick up a new trail type bike for ~£1k easily enough:
And then there's the Bossnut!
Pop on any nice bits from your patriot (like the hope brakes?), perhaps save up for posher forks and a dropper at a later date, but you could get rolling on a more up to date, budget friendly 27.5 trail bike tomorrow...
In terms of position then reach really is the issue. It handles better with a 35mm stem, and the bars aren't too close, but the pedals are just too far forward when standing up. I have gone to a 50mm stem now to offset this, the steering's a bit worse but still ok. If I go to 60mm then it's just unpleasant, too flip-floppy.
It would actually be much better if I'd bought a large tbh. I'm in between M and L usually, and back then, we wanted short 'flickable' bikes so I went with M.
Definitely aware of the Bossnut also. Looks good.
I'm with Shortbread on this, my Solaris is spot on for what you do.
12 mile each way commutue, on tarmac, sometimes back the fun way, Yair Forest, Innerleithen occasionally, all day stuff on the moors, trail centres and EWS courses at Glentress, Golfie etc, it's not perfect for any of it but is good for all. I suspect that the Patriot would be somewhat faster on the DH runs than the Solaris but it will do them. A Bfe might be more suited to the OP.
How tall are you I have a Trek remedy 29er that might fit what you're after and budget. 140mm front and rear do everything. Chris
I'm 5'11. Not buying right now tho, will have to save up. And sell the Patriot obvs.
EDIT isn't Remedy a little short at 460mm reach for a large?
Solaris is also 460mm reach and has a 68 degree HA, which doesn't seem slack at all. Patriot has I think 65.5 when I measured it in slack mode.
If the Remedy and Solaris are considered 'trail' bikes maybe 'enduro' really is more what I'm after?
I sold a Banshee Spitfire frame and shock some months back for not a whole lot of money. That would descend just as well as the Patriot (it's 140mm of very good rear suspension), takes a 160mm fork and 26" or 27.5" wheels. And pedals as well as my big forked hardtails. Most of the parts would swap across.