[Closed] Glencoe... an inconvenient truth.

Even when there IS snow, the Lecht is often shut because no-one can get near the place (as an aside). I drovepast Glencoe today and wondered what had become of the pproposed trails, so have read this thread with interest.

Can't really add anything new but will agree strongly with those saying you cannot have a decent mtb trail which is also suitable for diggers / atvs. You just can't. It would need to be a motorway along the lines of Glentress' swooopiest bits but twice as wide. It would need an access route following the trail.

That said, why is is needed at all?

Well I need my sleep and I'm pretty much done anyway, note those three years came after that report by the way..

A couple of points from above about places becoming the Scottish Whistler or the Welsh Morzine etc. It's a problem Oz seems to suffer with too.

Stop trying to compare to something very different. Be yourself, market yourself then
a) People wont be disappointed if they have actually traveled
b) Remember you for what you are not what you are not

The wilds of Scotland should be that, make ways to access the wilderness etc.

If you turnover say 18 million in winter but it costs you 18.1 million and you lose 100 thou, then in the summer you turnover say 2 million but it only costs you 1 million. (because [s]all the fixed costs of the leased machinery are amortised with the winter accounts book[/s] of creative accounting) you made 1 million which makes the summer more profitable than the winter.

FTFY

lol etc...

Well for whats its worth - here are the actual figures:

Season Skier Days 5 Year rolling average

2001/02 81,400
2002/03 44,800
2003/04 58,500
2004/05 55,586
2005/06 55,000 59,057
2006/07 38,553 50,488
2007/08 62,000 53,928
2008/09 65,000 55,228
2009/10 144,000 72,911
2010/11 121,420 86,195
2011/12 66,000 91,684
2012/13 75,000 94,284 (to 4th March 2013)

So, whilst it maybe correct to assert that Scottish skiing endured a very lean period 2002 - 2006 it didn't exactly shut down (as you claimed.)

Someone above mentioned the Lecht - there's some parallels. This too is privately owned, it actually has (or had) year round uplift and has, or had, a couple of lift served DH tracks. It hasn't had massive grants / subsidies like Cairngorm for example. And like Glencoe there is no local community. How does the Lechts mtb operation perform? Pretty poorly is my hunch.

I think the biggest problem for a trail centre in Scotland is that they are redundant unless they offer something highly specialised.

We have got open access to our trails - free.

Countries which have restricted access need trail centres so there's somewhere to ride, but we have everywhere. Thus the USA methodology may be flawed for application in Scotland - there's no captive audience here.

In other words, there's still people in Scotland who will use a trail centre, but there's a smaller pool than in countries with restricted trails.

epicyclo - Member
I think the biggest problem for a trail centre in Scotland is that they are redundant unless they offer something highly specialised.

I can't see anything quite as bold being undertaken by the Scottish resorts and especially in the case of this incident where they clearly don't value the efforts being made by those already engaged.

But just the same there is an opportunity to create something more reliable than hoping that the snowfall will continue to provide the income necessary to cover the infrastructure, it's overheads and the ground management that the years to come will bring.

Pity they can't resolve their differences and find the man in the Saab.

>I think the biggest problem for a trail centre in Scotland is that they are redundant unless they offer something highly specialised.<

Well in this instance you are talking about something highly specialised i.e chairlift assisted gravity trails. Whether you can build and run a bike park (as a commercial venture) and draw visitors in, in sufficient numbers to see a return on that investment is a different matter. entirely.

Personally I've never seen the attraction in jumping in the car every week to go and ride the same trails but I realise there are many folk who do. I remember being comprehensively flamed on this very forum for bigging up Cathkin Braes - wrong place, full of ne'er do wells and Junkies, why go there when you can go to Glentress yada yada. Well it aint looking so daft an idea now I believe. Build a bike park near Glasgow - that's where most of the people live 😉

WGM

Do you actually know anything about the Scottish ski scene? There are virtually no parallels with Europe / NA.

>I can't see anything quite as bold being undertaken by the Scottish resorts and especially in the case of this incident where they clearly don't value the efforts being made by those already engaged.<

And what do you know of the history of Glencoe or more specifically the current owner? AFAIK the guy sunk his own personal £ into rescuing the place so I'm quite happy to give him the benefit of the doubt until I see EVIDENCE to the contrary. At present this "incident" is just a couple of dudes slagging each other by keyboard.

epicyclo - Member

I think the biggest problem for a trail centre in Scotland is that they are redundant unless they offer something highly specialised.

writing as an englander: what they offer is a weather proof trail, that's just about the right length, just about the right level of fun/difficulty, in a beautiful country.

(it's a bit subtle, but there's the 'highly specialized something')

when i visit Scotland i have a choice; guaranteed good trails, or guaranteed map-faffing with a [i]possibility[/i] of good trails (with a high likelyhood of carrying my bike, my girlfriend, and her bike, through a bog).

theblackmount - Member

Personally I've never seen the attraction in jumping in the car every week to go and ride the same trails but I realise there are many folk who do.

my total guess is that most people at any given centre don't go there every week, it'll be a 'once every few years' visit.

I haven't been back to Kirroughtree for a couple of years, it'll be next year at the earliest that i can go again. Any 'Natural' trails nearby would have to be extremely awesome (and easy to find) to draw me away from the fantastic man-made stuff.

epicyclo - Member

I think the biggest problem for a trail centre in Scotland is that they are redundant unless they offer something highly specialised.

That must be why Glentress etc are all abandoned and unridden 😉

WGM

Do you actually know anything about the Scottish ski scene? There are virtually no parallels with Europe / NA.

No, should I?

I once rode Cairngorm(Snowboard speak), nasty experience, on the one day we had every form of weather known to man almost simultaneously and at one point were forced to stop dead despite goggles, face masks simply from the pain the hail inflicted on the tip of our noses.

I have got a certificate somewhere to prove it or that I survived a meal in that cafe.

As to the subject we're debating, I still can't quite get to the bottom of your angst with my albeit glib posts on the matter, surely we are broadly both in agreement that they sort their differences and have another go?

It's still that Clairvoyant thing isn't it, you think I should have been flamed even more so not to return?

>when i visit Scotland i have a choice; guaranteed good trails, or guaranteed map-faffing<

Sorry, but that's just a ridiculous comment - the internet is awash with highly detailed trail information nowadays. What you and many others want is certaintity and that's fair enough.

Back to the point. Glencoe is not a Trail Centre or a Bike Park. Should or could it become one is the issue.

>my total guess is that most people at any given centre don't go there every week, it'll be a 'once every few years' visit.<

My total guess is that you'd be very wrong - I reckon GT is rammed with week on week users. And to be brutally frank(and good though I'm sure it is) Kirroughtree and many of the others have very low visitor numbers.

WGM

>As to the subject we're debating, I still can't quite get to the bottom of your angst with my albeit glib posts on the matter,<

When you come on the forum and utter complete tosh as if it were fact you leave yourself open to ridicule. I've corrected your misinformation with some hard facts so I'll say no more.

>surely we are broadly both in agreement that they sort their differences and have another go?<

Yes we are.

Goodbye.

2 years or so ago the Seven Stanes project was listed in Scotlands top 20 list of tourist attractions (The list was based on revenue streams) - It's perhaps a little unfair to call the Seven Stanes a single attraction since it's so geographically spread but it still demonstrates the economic impact that mountain biking has had and is continuing to have. That's comparing it with castles and lochs and monsters and things. That's really quite amazing! Mountain biking in Scotland (everywhere really) is on the climb in terms of revenue streams brought into the local economies where it takes place - even if sales of actual mountain bikes aren't keeping pace with those or road bikes at the moment.

I've also sat down with the regional marketing director of Verbier and asked him directly the financial impact of mountain biking as a growing resource on their yearly revenue streams. This was 7 years ago mind. he said it was 80% snow 20% summer, but that he expects that the growth in development of mountain biking in the resort would continue to shift that ratio in favour of the summer. he said the biggest hurdle was the lift companies who still operated an historic business model that revolved around summer shutdowns. He also said many of the managers of lift companies were keen surfers and the last thing they really wanted was a summer season that kept them away from the coast 🙂

The last decade has seen dramatic development in summer seasons in many traditional winter resorts to try and either offset winter declines and/or exploit the potential MTB summers.

My opinion? Any ski resort that puts up resistance to development on this front is fighting a wave of development that others are riding. From a long term business pov I'd be developing MTB trails on my mountain with some eagerness. But then I'm totally biased aren't I 🙂

Mark

Glencoe is not a ski resort. It's a very exposed hill with some ageing ski lifts and, as far as I'm aware, some very real issues in terms of what it can actually build.

The guy who owns it is not putting up resistance for gods sake he's trying to make it viable. And he's fallen out with BMS. Sh1t happens, they will either resolve their differences and move forward or an alternative solution will be found.

But as for developing Glencoe as a Trail Centre, Bike Park etc well may be on some level but comparisons with Verbier et al are fanciful.

ahwiles - Member

my total guess is that most people at any given centre don't go there every week, it'll be a 'once every few years' visit.

Oops, missed this- I don't have numbers but I ride at Glentress and Innerleithen often and anecdotally, most people that you talk to there are pretty regular- not every week but several times a year. Down at the D&G Stanes that's probably less true though.

Trail centres in Scotland don't have to be super specialized to beat universal access, they just have to be good. And most of them are. But that's a whole other thread 😉

Sounds like a pretty rough few years; hope everything picks up for you in future.

Apologies, that opening remark was rather dismissive of Glencoe as a resort - I meant in comparative / accepted terms.

I learned to ski @ White Corries many years ago, I have a profound affection for it and my family have a long connection with it. I also have the utmost respect for the guy that took it on and I sincerely hope it continues to flourish. But some folk are getting carried away with the fairies here...

Glencoe is not a ski resort. It's a very exposed hill with some ageing ski lifts

Summed up perfectly.

Raced the MacAvalanche and also spent one day snowboarding there. Now I just drive straight past and up to Fort Bill.

No, should I?
I once rode Cairngorm(Snowboard speak), nasty experience, on the one day we had every form of weather known to man almost simultaneously and at one point were forced to stop dead despite goggles, face masks simply from the pain the hail inflicted on the tip of our noses.

I (and many others) have had that sort of experience at Glencoe in the summer. There is zero shelter on the way up or down, this does not make for family fun.

theblackmount - Member
WGM

>As to the subject we're debating, I still can't quite get to the bottom of your angst with my albeit glib posts on the matter,<

When you come on the forum and utter complete tosh as if it were fact you leave yourself open to ridicule. I've corrected your misinformation with some hard facts so I'll say no more.

>surely we are broadly both in agreement that they sort their differences and have another go?<

Yes we are.

Goodbye.

It's not utter tosh though is it, if it were, you wouldn't be reacting so, what can I say, er angrily?

Is this a Scots not liking English advice thing I wonder?

Mark makes my point in perhaps a little less vague way, Ski resorts do need to take up the opportunity that the new generation of Mountain Bikes offer, and Scottish resorts the more so, due precisely to the unreliable nature of their snow cover.
You may think a few inches of grabby wet mush is Snow, where I live it's quicker to drive to the Alps (that can also be unreliable these days)than huck it all the way up to the land of the angry dour and miserly.
Have you ever taken a downhill bike vacation? It carries all the thrill and fun of ski-ing and a well managed resort caters for all levels, it's not just about balls out downhill, there is a very pretty trail in Whistler I could take my mother down bless her if she were still alive, they are our sports future so we should be united in encouraging the enterprise displayed here, not offering reasons not to.

I wondered if you were trolling.

Now I know.

The guy who owns it is not putting up resistance for gods sake he's trying to make it viable.

Really? It seems to me that they're unwilling to invest, instead trying to make a half arsed trail/access road hybrid. The need to do it properly (which will require some investment) or forget about it. If they're not willing to pay someone £75/day to build a trail which could attract summer visitors, then they need to stick with what they know and leave MTBing to others.

The guy who owns it is not putting up resistance for gods sake he's trying to make it viable. And he's fallen out with BMS. Sh1t happens, they will either resolve their differences and move forward or an alternative solution will be found.

He might be trying to make it viable and be keen to do so but the apparent reason he's fallen out with the OP is not because of his resistance but rather the attitude/resistance of his staff (as per the OP's long winded post and the owner's rebuttal). So, the issue is not about re-educating the owner, but the owner re-educating his employees. Specifically that, if they want to see their jobs' future secured, they should buy in to the idea of diversification.

It's all well and good the OP and owner sitting down and shaking hands/making up but until the owner can get his people to change their attitudes then the whole thing is not going anywhere.

I once rode Cairngorm(Snowboard speak), nasty experience, on the one day we had every form of weather known to man almost simultaneously and at one point were forced to stop dead despite goggles, face masks simply from the pain the hail inflicted on the tip of our noses.

Awww poopykins, did the wickle snowfwakes hurt your nosey wosey? 😛

bigjim - Member

Awww poopykins, did the wickle snowfwakes hurt your nosey wosey?

Yes it did, it made them bleed, but then we were riding fast, not something any of the locals would countenance. 😀

>the apparent reason<

Yeah quite. This is all just talk...

I agree the hybrid track seems ridiculous but as I've explained ad nauseum there may be very real reasons why this is so. We're not dealing with some cookie cutter Sitka forest here.

Who says the owner has the Landowners permission to, or wants to or needs to build a Mtb Trail Centre as such? It's their gig.

Right, I'm out of here. Been nice chatting.

'poopykins' 😆

It's not utter tosh though is it, if it were, you wouldn't be reacting so, what can I say, er angrily?

Well at least two of things you have claimed have been shown to be complete rubbish yes.

"Most ski resorts make more profit in summer than they do in winter"
"Scotland had three straight years with no snow"

Is this a Scots not liking English advice thing I wonder?

I'm English. So no.

Mark makes my point in perhaps a little less vague way

Mark said the Marketing Director told him that one of the things you claimed (above) was rubbish 😉

You may take that as "making your point"

Most people would see it as a kick in the nadgers (ooof!)

Ski resorts do need to take up the opportunity that the new generation of Mountain Bikes offer, and Scottish resorts the more so, due precisely to the unreliable nature of their snow cover.

Agreed.

But making up statistics and historic weather conditions doesn't help you make that point.

From a long term business pov I'd be developing MTB trails on my mountain with some eagerness.

I presume you're sitting on piles of cash from all the STW advertising revenue - go buy yourself a mountain, Mark 😉

It's all well and good the OP and owner sitting down and shaking hands/making up but until the owner can get his people to change their attitudes then the whole thing is not going anywhere.

Which is still down to the owner wanting to do this enough. If he does then I can't see why it should be a problem re-educating his staff - he does after all pay their wages.

I think we all agree that airing dirty linen on here doesn't help that process - hopefully the fact the two people involved haven't posted for a while means they've taken that on board. Though hopefully they're also still reading this (at least the good bits) and realise they do still both have the support of the community. Not that my opinions are really all that relevant - I'm probably just about as likely to walk on the moon as ride a downhill resort.

Good debate seems to have descended into bickering - now that is unusual!

Anyway

2 years or so ago the Seven Stanes project was listed in Scotlands top 20 list of tourist attractions (The list was based on revenue streams)

I'm sure I've read that Glentress is the single biggest visitor attraction in the Borders. So there is plenty of potential for making money out of MTBing in Scotland.

I think Glencoe is in the wrong location - Fort William is too, but it has the added draw of the World Cup and has had years of grants and promotion to brand it as "The UK's Outdoor Capital" It already has XC trails and two lift served routes but I can't see it being developed further

One guy however well intentioned is going to really struggle to turn Glencoe into an MTB destination but fair play for giving it a go, I hope he proves me wrong.

Cairngorm would be the place to try and develop an uplift mtb destination. Its more centrally located and already has lots of non uplift trails nearby that could be developed further to turn Cairngorm in to a proper "destination" mtb centre. There does seem to be some resistance to developing it as a mountain biking centre though, due to the sensitivity of some of the local habitats. Mind you this didn't stop them sticking the white elephant furnicular in.

STW nerds arguing over snow/MTB profit/loss has ruined this thread for me, I hope you're all happy!
Now, can we get back to shady business practises and tattooed geezers in car parks before I give up and do some real work?

Northwind - Member
...That must be why Glentress etc are all abandoned and unridden

That's an exception. It was placed there for the benefit of city folk who can't read maps. Anyhow, it's so far south, it's practically in England. 🙂

On a more serious note, it shows that for success as a trail centre in a country with open access, you need to be close to major population centres. It's got Edinburgh, Glasgow and close to the north of England. That's well placed.

Wow, well I'm really encouraged to go to scotchland for my biking holiday, sounds like a great welcoming place....

Oh no, hang on, I'm going to the Alps, phew.

[i]From a long term business pov I'd be developing MTB trails on my mountain with some eagerness.[/i]

Entering into SingleGuessWorld here, but ownership of land and ownership of the ski centre on top of it are two different things.

At Nevis Range it's Rio Tinto Alcan up top and FC below isn't it? Seem to remember the lease arrangements here control the mtb trails can open.

I'm sure I've read that Glentress is the single biggest visitor attraction in the Borders. So there is plenty of potential for making money out of MTBing in Scotland.

Or **** all else to do in the Borders 😉

Glentress is a multi-activity site so it's not just about mountain biking and, like it or not, there is a much, much larger market of "mincers" to cater to as opposed to rad DHers. Glencoe has nothing to offer in that regard and also suffers from lack of local accommodation or any other facilities.

The most likely candidates for uplifted riding in Scotland are Cairngorm and Innerleithen. The former suffers from development restraints related to the environment and the latter from lack of infrastructure. I really do wish them well on getting that resolved but it is still chasing a very small demographic. Coire na Ciste at Cairngorm has the potential to be the absolute #1 goto mountain biking destination in the UK.

epicyclo - Member

On a more serious note, it shows that for success as a trail centre in a country with open access, you need to be close to major population centres.

No it doesn't- it's an example of a success that's close to a major population centre, that hardly proves that all successes need to be. Perfect example is Laggan, to get there you drive to the middle of nowhere then turn left, and the closest thing they have to a population centre is 2 men taking turns *****ing a sheep. But it's not just a success- it achieved almost a full return on the initial investment in 1 year.

All the stanes are considered succesful in terms of visitor numbers and benefits to the local areas, but only GT and Innerleithen are really convenient to the cities. Golspie feels forgotten now but "broke even" as it were years ago. And then there's Nevis Range- which sure, has the unique gondola access but is also well ridden as an XC venue despite really not being that standout.

Coire na Ciste at Cairngorm has the potential to be the absolute #1 goto mountain biking destination in the UK.

Absolutely, they have already ruined the hill with the ski area (I say that as someone who uses it fairly frequently) so I don't see why the addition of a few well designed blue through red and black dh runs would make that much difference. With some decent downhill runs in place I can't see anyone pedalling off up and across the environmentally sensitive plateau.

"Wow, well I'm really encouraged to go to scotchland for my biking holiday, sounds like a great welcoming place....
Oh no, hang on, I'm going to the Alps, phew."

nickc, I wouldn't base the destination of your holiday on this thread (not that you would I know). Scotland has some incredible mountain biking, however Whistler Bike Park or Les Gets it is not, which is fine.

Not that I'm inclined to the North of this fair land, but has anyone produced a definitive guide to the trails up there, reading this so far y'all may as well be speaking gaelic. I know about Ft William because everybody does I guess, but Innerleithen? Glentress? And that seven strand thing whatever it is, where do you go to see the lot mapped out? Mrs Goodman despite my protestations and warnings about Midge attacks has expressed a desire to cross the border, before they wall it off, so there could be a deal to be struck here if I get to ride stuff, I might even get to try the Glencoe place first hand you never know, are there Hotels with running water electricity and stuff?

Whitegoodman has to be trolling!

It looks like he's trying to cover up his previous "Factual Posts" with a healthy dose of "Obvious Troll"

Kind of like a Subtle variation of the Edinburgh Defence.