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Oh well that's cleared things up. Glencoe and Whistler Blackcombe are virtually identical and directly comparable.
apart from the miserable bag that used to sell passes at the booth in the winter
"It's 20 quid for the day, take it or leave it no refunds"
Whistler Blackcombe were just the first that's all, surely even you lot can see the benefit if more slopes open up to us? Why so damned negative all the time?
Whitegoodman had a presentation by the team from Whistler Blackcombe in 2007 with costs, details and the number of Alpine resorts converting or due to convert, Whitegoodman worked in the outdoor (wintersports) business back then.
There is profit to made by ski resorts in summer, no doubt.
But to say....
most ski resorts make more profit in the summer from MTB's than in winter from the skiing
....is pure cobblers.
Talking about yourself in the third person won't change that I'm afraid 😉
Rob McSkimming at the Eastgate? Me too.
IIRC he said that Whistlers income was primarily snowsports, then golf, then MTB. I'd wager a crisp Canadian dollar that the jumps between these are substantial, eh?
Still, agree with the opening line of your third para up there a bit.
That's the one thegeneralist 😀
wgm, I would love to see it (a genuine uplifted summer season) succeed I can assure you.
Profit does not mean turnover, it means that without the costs of snow management, the increased summer cash volume, lower than it is, makes more money than the higher volume winter turnover. Now if you look at the snow history of Scotland, which trust me is sketchy to say the least, i would have thought they should plough every available resource into attracting MTB's to their slopes as well as anyone or anything else that would benefit by the cable lifts.
So, most let me qualify and say most big ski resorts that have opened up the slopes and fully catered for bikes are enjoying a more profitable summer season, thanks to the longer daylight hours, the lack of snow management, avalanche patrols, piste grooming etc etc.
Whistler Blackcombe at the time claimed 20 million dollars more summer business, now to tell the truth i wasn't paying a great deal of attention at the time, all I know, they were pretty excited by it, but then later that year Lehmans crashed.
Ah. So when you said "given that most ski resorts make more profit" you actually meant "given that most ski resorts make more %profit". Riiiiight...
Whistler MTB park in making more money than it's skiing counter park shocker!
I'd look at it this way.....Scotland is one of the few places in Britain that you can Ski.....it's the only place that has dedicated Ski resorts.
There is plenty of mtbing to be had in Britain, a good deal of it is as good if not better than anything that Glencoe would have to offer. I can get to Antur Stiniog for some excellent uplift DH riding in just over 2 hours from mine-I'm unlikely to drive 10 hours or whatever to Glencoe-even if it was better, I doubt whether it would be that much better to justify the trip. I would however make the trip up there to Ski, as it is much better for this purpose than anything nearby.
Tom B was sorely tempted to refer to himself in the third person but mostly resisted, mostly.
whitegoodman
So, ignoring capital repayments (based on these were spent for the ski season) you are just looking at the pure summer operating costs and its associated profit/loss vs the operating costs (and total loss) of not actually operating.
And since the lifts in Glencoe/Nevis have always operated in summer, it would be pretty correct to argue that ANY income from MTB's is pure profit and draw the conclusion that they should be encouraged.
Brycey - Memberwgm, I would love to see it (a genuine uplifted summer season) succeed I can assure you.
Well, as far as I see it, it's classic 'build it and they/we will come' as far as the OP is concerned it was also noted that there would be increased demand for coaching and guiding skills, it's one thing letting folk go mountain biking when they restrict themselves to cross country mincing, but the moment they start chucking themselves down real big mountains on Halfords specials they are going to start to die, if they are not coached as to how to ride and what to purchase.
I think you need to visit Whistler, ride it and then decide if it's worth paying the money, to my mind it is.
Ah so Field Of Dreams is your business plan-you are Jez from Peep Show and I claim my £5 of outdoor pursuit vouchers.
wgm, you're beginning to confuse me now. Who is it that's "letting" people go "mincing", and where is the capital coming from "build I and they will come", considering the OP has failed to secure £75/day to date?
Brycey - Member
Ah. So when you said "given that most ski resorts make more profit" you actually meant "given that most ski resorts make more %profit". Riiiiight...
Lots of ski resorts run at a loss, they get run by local authorities inefficiently, they suffer from high overheads geared to maximum snowfall and recently have suffered reducing snowfall, three clear years passed in Scotland one time with no snow for instance.
Other businesses, hotels, shops, airports, transfers etc all benefit by the added summer traffic, since at the moment they're costings are still geared to winter seasonality.
You don't need Snow to downhill bike, it really is a no brainer.
But it does depend of course on the quality of the trails and bike park, so the actions of the OP are to be encouraged, not ****ed off they way he so clearly has been.
Brycey - Member
wgm, you're beginning to confuse me now. Who is it that's "letting" people go "mincing", and where is the capital coming from "build I and they will come", considering the OP has failed to secure £75/day to date?
I'm sorry, are there not two parties here, that should be talking positively together so that we, instead of arguing the toss for the sake of sport, could look forward to another trail to ride this summer?
If I'm coming across as all dictatorial then i apologise, I spend a lot of time trying to convince financial types to get behind this sort of thing, er but I don't recommend mincing to them. 😉
wgm I'm bowing out. You're changing course like a crisp packet in the wind.
For many reasons listed on this thread I don't see anywhere in Scotland being the new Whistler any time soon. Luckily, instead, there is absolutely incredible non-lifted riding all over the place.
most big ski resorts that have opened up the slopes and fully catered for bikes are enjoying a [b]more profitable summer season [/b]
"More profitable" than what ?
If you are saying that the summer is more profitable than without Mountain Biking, then yes I would agree.
If you are saying its more profitable than the Winter Season, then I'm calling cobblers on that one (again)
nealglover - MemberIf you are saying its more profitable than the Winter Season, then I'm calling cobblers on that one (again)
And other than big hitting your qualification to make that call is what exactly?
[i]three clear years passed in Scotland one time with no snow for instance.[/i]
Evidence please.
I spend a lot of time trying to convince financial types to get behind this sort of thing,
Perhaps there are good reasons behind their reluctance?
>three clear years passed in Scotland one time with no snow for instance.<
Whoops - I've been skiing in Scotland for >30 years and I can't remember when that was.
So, go on, enlighten me.
Tom B - MemberI can get to Antur Stiniog for some excellent uplift DH riding in just over 2 hours from mine-I'm unlikely to drive 10 hours or whatever to Glencoe
Probably worth mentioning that when this project all started, there was no antur stiniog. I think it's been a genuine gamechanger, first vehicle uplift I can think of that can compete directly with the chairlifts (Nevis is still better mind) and a great start on teh trails. Superb work all round.
But Glencoe IMO shouldn't be seen as a standalone, it's close to Nevis (well, relatively 😉 ) and the 2 complement each other.
[quote=theblackmount ]>three clear years passed in Scotland one time with no snow for instance.<
Whoops - I've been skiing in Scotland for >30 years and I can't remember when that was.
I think it's that three clear years are [i]going to[/i] pass in Scotland with no snow. This is plainly some of the bad news foretold by wgms clairvoyant.
And other than big hitting your qualification to make that call is what exactly?
So you are just going to insult me rather than demonstrating some truth in all these claims you are making ?
Fair enough.
I'll just presume you can't back up what you are saying then.
nealglover - Member
And other than big hitting your qualification to make that call is what exactly?
So you are just going to insult me rather than demonstrating some truth in all these claims you are making ?Fair enough.
I'll just presume you can't back up what you are saying then.
It costs money to know what I know son and you can't afford it.. 😉
theblackmount - Member
>three clear years passed in Scotland one time with no snow for instance.<Whoops - I've been skiing in Scotland for >30 years and I can't remember when that was.
So, go on, enlighten me.
Go and ask Brian Stark from Boardwise, he'll remember.
[i]Go and ask Brian Stark from Boardwise, he'll remember. [/i]
He doesn't appear to be on here making a tit of himself, you'll have to do...
It costs money to know what I know son and you can't afford it.
You are Gareth Cheeseman and I claim my £5 pounds.
It costs money to know what I know son and you can't afford it..
Sorry Dad 🙄
I should know not to ask awkward questions when you are making stuff up to sound impressive.
So..... Seeing as you are refusing to back up your claims about summer being more profitable than winter for ski resorts, (not even posting dubious YouTube videos for evidence)
how about telling us, when were these 3 straight years when there was no snow in Scotland ?
Seriously though, having lived and worked in the Alps (Summer and Winter) for many years, I would be interested to hear some insight into why you think ski resorts make more money in summer than they do in winter.
Seriously, I really would.
OK, on the subject of snow and the lack of it, I'll cite this old report..
the pertinent paragraph..
3.6 Scottish skiing has tended to become unreliable, which has lead to the cancellation of events, some of which have been moved to the European Alps. Reductions in revenue from skiing activities have impacted directly on re-investment and staff have frequently had to be paid off. There has been some evidence of a declining commitment to snow-based activities, which has resulted in decreases in membership of some ski clubs and the consequent loss of club facilities. Because snow cover has become less reliable, skiers have become more opportunistic in their behaviour patterns and marketing has emphasised that last-minute decision making is possible.
That report was up until 2001 and from memory it was later than that 2004-7 maybe at the time business in snow products dropped off severely in Scotland.
[url= http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/156666/0042099.pdf ]Here read it and ask yourself if you were a ski resort wehter you should invest instead in downhill MTB's[/url]
Which at the end of the day is the subject we're debating here is it not?
Brian Stark Boardwise?
Jesus there's a name from the past. Used to own Mach in Lady Lawson Street IIRC.
Nice guy / younger than me.
You are talking p1sh btw.
I'm out every winter in the Scottish mountains and I'm struggling to remember when this was.when were these 3 straight years when there was no snow in Scotland ?
nealglover - Member
Seriously though, having lived and worked in the Alps (Summer and Winter) for many years, I would be interested to hear some insight into why you think ski resorts make more money in summer than they do in winter.Seriously, I really would.
I think that because i was told that by the Whistler Blackcombe team, for all the reasons I cited.
Now maybe they were slick sales folk selling their bike park building skills, which they had also convinced other Alpine resorts to take up.
Then I heard, again in France that several of the big resorts, Alpe Duez, Chamonix, Les Deux Alpes, Porte de Solais were also reporting similar enhanced profitability.
My Colleagues in Switzerland also reported increased summer profitable resort activity in Verbier I think it was, don't quote me, I don't get why you all doubt it?
Is this another "he's not an atheist we should burn him thing?"
Whitegoodman,
You have just posted an article that basically proves what you said to be utter balls.
If there was three straight years without snow in Scotland, ever, do you not think they might have mentioned it in that article ?
enhanced profitability.
As in
"More profit [b]in summer[/b] now, compared to summer when we didn't offer mountain biking"
[b]NOT[/b]
"More profitable in summer than we are in winter"
There is a MASSIVE difference.
... I don't get why you all doubt it?
Because its utter bobbins.
WGM
DH mtb is niche within a niche. In my view White Corries, aka Glencoe, would require substantial investment to make it remotely attractive to a wider audience (Mincers) IIRC there are a whole raft of restrictions on the use of and development of that particular hillside. That's before we start discussing the weather, geology, ageing infrastructure etc.
Without being negative, you have to be realistic about what is possible on that site. And certainly in the current economic climate...
And as others have pointed out Scotland should be playing to its other mtb strengths - not trying to compete with uplift models on an Alpine / NA American scale.
I have no doubt there is a living to be made by a BMS type outfit and that the operator could make a modest profit on that operation. It's also clear that both parties are at least committed to further development at Glencoe so I for one hope they can bury their differences and sort it out. Offline.
nealglover - Member
enhanced profitability.
As in"More profit in summer now, compared to summer when we didn't offer mountain biking"
NOT
"More profitable in summer than we are in winter"
If you turnover say 18 million in winter but it costs you 18.1 million and you lose 100 thou, then in the summer you turnover say 2 million but it only costs you 1 million. (because all the fixed costs of the leased machinery are amortised with the winter accounts book) you made 1 million which makes the summer more profitable than the winter.
There were three very bad seasons in Scotland, OK it may be very glib to say there was no snow, but working in that business it's the way it gets talked about, the same as last season (2011)there was no snow before Christmas, so nobody booked, so another bad season followed, the Snowboard business went into crisis as a result, another tale don't ask me to quantify please.
But the point of the assertion is to back the OP in his business plan, which is still a solid idea, unfortunately last summer didn't happen, everybody suffered, every outdoor business suffered even kayak chains went bust.
theblackmount - Member
WGMDH mtb is niche within a niche. In my view White Corries, aka Glencoe, would require substantial investment to make it remotely attractive to a wider audience (Mincers) IIRC there are a whole raft of restrictions on the use of and development of that particular hillside. That's before we start discussing the weather, geology, ageing infrastructure etc.
Without being negative, you have to be realistic about what is possible on that site. And certainly in the current economic climate...
And as others have pointed out Scotland should be playing to its other mtb strengths - not trying to compete with uplift models on an Alpine / NA American scale.
I have no doubt there is a living to be made by a BMS type outfit and that the operator could make a modest profit on that operation. It's also clear that both parties are at least committed to further development at Glencoe so I for one hope they can bury their differences and sort it out. Offline.
Totally agree.
But the one sells the other, (MTB skills coaching)
If you turnover say 18 million in winter but it costs you 18.1 million and you lose 100 thou, then in the summer you turnover say 2 million but it only costs you 1 million. (because all the fixed costs of the leased machinery are amortised with the winter accounts book) you made 1 million which makes the summer more profitable than the winter.
I understand how business accounting works. I've been running my own business for years.
The first word of your post is the one that's most important.
"IF"
And I'm saying that does not happen.
If it did, then there would be more profit in summer.
But it doesn't.
And there isn't.
Well I was told different and I choose to believe them and their sales pitch because it suits me, a bit like Clairvoyancy I guess. 😉
And they had a powerpoint presentation on a big screen and you don't.
I don't have a power point presentation for you to misunderstand no.
Just years of industry experience, and common sense.
Somebody isn't wrong on the internet again and keeping you up then? 😆
Insomnia keeps me up.
People talking balls about stuff just passes the time.