[Closed] Full Sus. Facts and Fiction?

Sorry I edited, but yes I agree.

mologrips is right if you are only riding lightly a hardtail is the horse for the course and you will jus have 2 find out cos i ve jus got a orange 5 and i wud never go back to hard tail becuse the riding i enjoy is always pushing you so hard tail is no gud.

molgrips -

I've no idea what you are talking about. I've never heard that said. Everyone I speak to seems to understand that it's horses for courses. Isn't that obvious?

You've never heard someone on the trail baulk at the idea of doing (insert random technical thing) because they were on a hardtail? Usually it's followed by " I must buy a full sus". I hear it at least once a week. Every 30 seconds on a group ride. (exaggerating slightly for effect)

In my humble opinion the best horse for a given course is the one with the best geometry, not the one with a seemingly arbitrary amount of rear wheel travel.

I also happen to believe that the best horse/bike for people looking to acquire new skills is a hardtail.Perhaps I should appologise for posting a thread which can inspire a degree of debate as opposed to another "What bike/component do I need" thread. What was I thinking anyway, it's just a bike, it should be ridden without any thought given to why or how. God forbid anyone would have a discussion about bikes or question any of the seemingly accepted logic, or what passes for logic amongst mtb'ers.

Why not just have one of each? Problem solved.

God forbid anyone would have a discussion about bikes or question any of the seemingly accepted logic, or what passes for logic amongst mtb'ers

There is very little logic in MTBing. (FS certainly isn't an 'accepted logic')
It's a truly stupid thing to do and 99% of us do it purely because we like it, or because it [u]is[/u] silly, or because it gives us a buzz in some way (Veiws, social scene, speed, jumping, whatever..) Some people like to talk BS about bikes and riding..? It's our nature. Some like shiny anodised things and/or the latest FS bikes. Some like black and fully rigid singlespeeds. There's nowt wrong with any of it.

Your experience is that HTs are better. That's fine. But why try to force that view on others just because you 'get more respect from other bikers?'

At this precise moment you're getting a total of ZILCH respect because you are trying to force your opinion on others!

🙂

PeterPoddy -

Your experience is that HTs are better. That's fine. But why try to force that view on others just because you 'get more respect from other bikers?'

At this precise moment you're getting a total of ZILCH respect because you are trying to force your opinion on others!

How am I trying to force my opinion? I posed a question did I not? I was trying to inspire discussion not enforce my opinion. Where have I blankly refused to acknowledge anyones arguement or rigidly tried to enforce my own?

And btw thank you for using the last, and indeed most incidental plus point I listed with regards to hard tails in an effort to make me appear shallow.

Not many Rallycars out there with no suspension or even only front suspension.

Some of us like argueing over the same things on a regular basis - makes the day go by a bit quicker - why does everyone get so worked up about it. It's just his opinion.

davidtaylforth - can't remember last time I serviced the bushes, bearings or shock on my full susser's either, over 2 years old, used 3 times per week in all weathers and the bearings and shock are fine, previous bike had 3 years of the same use, frame still in the garage with original shock, bearings and bushes, your point was????

Sorry everyone. Perhaps my original post was not clear. Or perhaps I seemed to be expressing/enforcing an unpopular opinion with it. Allow me to re-phrase it.

Is there a general perception within mountainbiking that full suspension is needed to progress ones riding. If so, why does this seem to be the case? I find it strange as I find a lack of rear suspension to be beneficial in many aspects of mountain bike riding. Is that bland/general/inoffesive enough?

How am I trying to force my opinion? I posed a question?

Like this -

Opinion -

also happen to believe that the best horse/bike for people looking to acquire new skills is a hardtail

Ridicule -

Usually it's followed by " I must buy a full sus". I hear it at least once a week. Every 30 seconds on a group ride

Wild assumptions –

Yet despite all this some people seem utterly convinced that the path to great skill and enjoyment can only be found on a susser.

.

.

And btw thank you for using the last, and indeed most incidental plus point I listed with regards to hard tails in an effort to make me appear shallow.

I never said that, but yes, that's how it comes across. Thanks for pointing it out.

8)

Picking up on the OP, I think there is a culture of 'more / better kit = better rider'. This is not a debate about FS vs rigid, its about if shiny new kit makes you a better rider.
.
As we all know, this is wrong. *I* am the limiting factor in my riding.
There are few people who could really get out of my bike what its capable of.
.
We spend £000's on the latest fork/brake/shock to make us better riders.
I think more people should spend money on some coaching - technical stuff, not fitness - and get fitter.
.
I *know* my technical ability on a bike is less than when I left Scotland a decade ago - but I was riding daily, with a group that pushed each other to do more/bigger/faster/higher, and were a group of SMBLA tutors and coaches. We were also riding rigid, steel and v-braked in general (ooh, the excitement the day I got some RST Mozo's)
.
Sure, my new bike gets me out of some real scrapes, and allows me the luxury of some more mistakes. Equally, it gets me into them in equal proportion.
.
I wonder how much better a rider I would be if I had spent the purchase price of my new bike on some coaching and trips to push myself...

Not convinced by the 'you must learn on a hardtail' thing either. Suspension bikes require some learning...

PeterPoddy - Member

Opinion -

God forbid anyone should have one.

Ridicule -

In retrospect I realise I was brutal.

Wild assumptions –

Wild???? Really?

I never said that, but yes, that's how it comes across. Thanks for pointing it out.

Don't mention it. I didnt realise it was shallow to point out the opinions of other bikers.

davidtaylforth - can't remember last time I serviced the bushes, bearings or shock on my full susser's either, over 2 years old, used 3 times per week in all weathers and the bearings and shock are fine, previous bike had 3 years of the same use, frame still in the garage with original shock, bearings and bushes, your point was????

Do you ride in a bubble?

I cant see how you've managed 3 years of riding without replacing anything, unless you've done the old trick of letting your bearings and bushings wear out so much that you get about an extra inch of travel, some of it lateral for those big sideways impacts.

Aren't hardtails really just a bit of a fence sitting compromise ? Wanting to be efficient whilst trying to soften some of the 'blows'.

If you had any sense of biking commitment you'd either ride full-suspension or fully-rigid (like me 8) ).

I cant see how you've managed 3 years of riding without replacing anything, unless you've done the old trick of letting your bearings and bushings wear out so much that you get about an extra inch of travel, some of it lateral for those big sideways impacts.

I've had my turner 6 years, replaced the pivot bushes once, and the shock bushes once. I ride in the peaks which isn't the most forgiving area.

hard tale is gurlz, fs=max sick.

PHeewwww . that was hard work !

How much do you earn ?

Buy whatever you want .... if you have the cash for a good full sus buy it . if you are short of cash get a hardie .

Get out on the trails , get stoked to ride , sacrifice something in your life to buy a better ride , ride more , love it.

Ride a halfords special twice a week , its more than 75% of the guys with $3000+ bikes (1500 quid) , enjoy and stop arguing with keyboard champions on here .

I'm doing an Alps crossing over 5 days in August.
I've got a hardtail which I think is great.
I've got a full sus which I think is great.
There is no dilemma about which one to take on the alps trip.

Is there a general perception within mountainbiking that full suspension is needed to progress ones riding

In a word? NO.

Is there a perception that people with hardtails assume people with full-suspension bikes aren't as good riders?

It does appear that way.

Personally I have both, including a road bike, and you learn things from each of them.

In the end: Ride whatever you want and enjoy whatever you ride.

You've never heard someone on the trail baulk at the idea of doing (insert random technical thing) because they were on a hardtail? Usually it's followed by " I must buy a full sus". I hear it at least once a week. Every 30 seconds on a group ride. (exaggerating slightly for effect)

No, I don't go on group rides (cos of annoying people like that) and I don't stand around and chinwag on trails 🙂 I do that at home or on here 🙂

You are of course right that geometry is most important. However, I should point out that typically, the longer travel the FS the slacker the angles are (On-one etc notwithstanding). So if it's something steep then a long travel FS is definitely better because of the angles not cos of the travel. There's things that I'd ride on the Patriot but never on my Heihei, despite the complete absence of rocks etc. The Patriot's got slacker angles, wide bars, big fat tyres, a short stem and brilliant brakes. On a 456 with a similar build I'd probably manage the same kind of stuff, but I've never ridden one 🙂

Plus, I'm beginning to realise that most people on here ride very differently. Some folk are just pootling about the woods, some are training for racing, some are DHers or hucksters, some just get out in the hills and some like to race their mates. If you pootle about, then a big FS is pointless. If you hammer as fast as you can and live somewhere rocky, then FS is great. There are trails that I wouldn't enjoy anything like as much on a HT because they're so rocky you can't really go that fast. The Gap for instance was an ordeal on my old fully rigid P7.

As mentioned before, horses for courses (and riders).

To be fair, I don't think GNARGNAR is looking to debate the pros and cons of full-suss v HTs, more to debate whether people think that full-suss will make them better riders.

I do think that a full-suss can improve your confidence and therefore make you ride a hardtail better. I experienced this recently when I took my hardtail out after nearly a year of riding my full-suss.

I'm the same rider on any bike.

molgrips - group rides can be great fun. You don't have to talk about bikes (much). I've never met an annoying person on a group ride (except the slow ones who get in the way maybe 😉 )

Got full-suss and full-rigid (plus dark side), I grab whichever takes my fancy or makes sense. Would love to add a Front sus HT too but I've been told new bikes must now replace old bikes.

I think my five is the best goddam bike ever made but it's more about the whole package, the designers concept and execution, the geometry etc - just happens to be full suss. I've not ridden a modern P7 or Crush but I'm under the impression that they're equally brilliant.

To the OP, perhaps your intentions were honest but unfortunately your early posts did smell a bit of troll...

Regarding progression:

Finally splashing the cash and getting my 1st FS last summer has resulted in me being more ambitious on several fronts: riding harder through rocks, smoother climbing, attempting jumps and drops, leaping off bumps at speed, up to 8h rides. All grin-tastic stuff.

The limitations of my HT are now apparent: it's too heavy to zoom, too front-heavy to pop, too brutal to ride more than 4h, too slack and steers like a bus. On the plus side, it's got a ****-off big fork, bars and stem and if you get behind the bars, the whole machine smashes and crashes it's way downhill unstoppably - which is tremendous fun!

I recently rode my mates new P7 with big Fox float fork - it cost more than my FS! Despite not being uber light, it literally bounds forward when you stamp on the pedals. It's probably the perfect bike for round here.

In summary: Suspension forgives mistakes and is more comfortable so you can ride harder for longer without needing hard-to-get magical bike skills. Realistically, at my age and with the limited time I have for riding, I'm never going to be Brian Lopes. I'm just looking for fitness and fun. So up-yours to all the bike-skill snobs!

LOL - being able to ride rock fast and hard on a HT means you will ride harder and faster rock on a FS.
having a HT to practice fast rock runs on means even more speed on the FS.
FACT.

Full suss are more fun. I own fully rigid retro bikes, hardtails and full sussers. I ride all of them sometimes, but spend 95% of my time on the full susser (5 spot).

I spent 5 years working as a mountain bike guide around the world, and I only had a hardtail. I was often guiding people on full suss and yet the Hardtail certainly was not holding me back. I was often working a bit harder to ride the same stuff smoothly or as fast though.

Full Suss is more fun. I love epic singletrack riding. 7 hours of technical beech forest single track is my favourite sort of day. After 7 hours of technical trails on the full suss I am in better shape than I would be after 7 hours of working the hardtail... and I had more fun!

You certainly dont need a full suss to enjoy riding or learn how to ride stuff, but it can make technical riding more fun and more forgiving.

People who think they need a different bike before they will be able to ride an obstacle need to HTFU!!

lecht: yeah probably right

Davidtaylforth, my Orange sub 5 is 5 years old. The rear shock has been serviced once in tis time, the forks never. The bearings are still good and original with no slop or play and never been repacked. Look after your kit and it will look after you. The bike goes away washed and lubed after every ride. My forks are by Fox and may need a service when I have some money.
Lecht I could ride rock fast on a HT but my back would make me pay for my temerity. FS keeps me on the bike longer/for more days a week.

I love hardtails and will always have one but also dabble with full suspension and the reason for that is more own limitations: these are that I feel more confident on some technical stuff on a FS and a FS allows me to ride for longer. Some could argue both these points but they are my reasons for having/wanting FS.

Some have said FS is faster but I fail to see the significance of this as speed is relative to the rider only (unless you're racing). I would not buy a FS to shave time off some downhill as thats not important to me. I go as faster as I'm comfortable whatever bike I'm riding (Its like driving a Porsche and a Fiat Panda: the same noisy and vibration at 60mph in the Panda would be at about 120mph in the Porsche!) and the time taken to get to the bottom is irrelevant as its the fun getting there thats important.

Working the hardtail is fun for shorter bursts. Wheelies and suchlike are better too.

The bike goes away washed and lubed after every ride

Thanks for backing me up, full sus does require more maintenance. Fact.

you seem to get more respect for riding them from other bikers.

lol - from other self-obsessed purists you mean?

I had a hardtail, now I have a full suss - its much more fun. This debate has been done to death, stop getting so defensive that most people think its a bit of a shit thread topic.

Noooooooooooooo!!!! Please dont insult me or my thread in such a brutal fashion.

Full sus = more interestingable, more capable, more enjoyable.

HT = Faster but, you take a battering for it.

Not many Rallycars out there getting pedalled up hills by the driver 🙄

This thread is all b*llocks.

Me? I ride an 80mm suspension Orbea Alma for 24 hour solos and never feel beaten up. Its uber quick for flat field racing (as most race circuits in this country are).

For 'proper' rock gardens such as the Peaks and Snowdon (not these poxy trail centres ;o) I ride a Lapierre Zesty. I used to have a Pace RC303 and thought it was the business until I rode a Lapierre Zesty at Cwm Carn and for me there is no going back for technical climbing and descending. It blows away the Pace and is more enjoyable on stuff I simply could not have conquered on the Pace. Whether thats a lack of skill on my part I don't know but when your hopping 3/4 foot step ups on a hardtail compared to a full suss the only one thats gonna win on traction is the full sus.

mushrooms – 'HT = Faster but, you take a battering for it.'

Faster on what?? Fireroads.

Certainly not on rocky, techy climbs IMO of course.

I always thought it was the ride not the bike etc.....

I threw away all my bikes as I realised each one had an advert for it somewhere.....
I hate to be on any bandwagon, so now just sit there feeling proud but glum every time i try to go riding.....

😉

DrP

The rougher your trail is the more comfort you will get from a full susser at speed.

Up until it starts getting pretty damn rough you can ride most things just as fast on a hard tail, but not with anywhere like as much comfort as on the full susser.

Full sussers make life more comfortable and that opens up riding to more people. (and manufacturers make more coin on them).

Its uber quick for flat field racing (as most race circuits in this country are).

Most races are flat fields? Rubbish. It's not 1990 any more you know. Most races I do are technical woodsy singletrack (ranging from thrutchy, awkward and slow to brilliant and fast) with some fire road included. Then there's Margam which is monster climbs.

On topic (ish) - there's a rocky climb near me that I could do on my Gary Fisher Cake (great climbing 5" FS) but not on my hardtail despite it being 6lbs lighter. Climbing is not always easier on an HT, but it is if traction is not an issue.

In any case, if people think that some piece of kit will help them do something, then they might be right. It was very scary doing anything steep on my Cake (70 degree head angle) so I refused a lot of stuff. The same things are way easier on my Patriot (66 degree head angle I think). So yeah, the bike really did make a difference. Does that make me a crap rider blaming his kit for his inadequacies?

So yeah, the bike really did make a difference. Does that make me a crap rider blaming his kit for his inadequacies?

Yeah should go home and beat yourself with a stick to punish yourself for the shame of having enjoyed riding a full suss bike. You would get more respect from other riders for riding a hardtail.

hopping 3/4 foot step ups

I know what you meant but I read this as 3 to 4 ft step ups LOL