[Closed] Front rotor size. 200 or 180? Struggling with steep n slow..

Whats actually going wrong?
Locking the front?
Not slowing the front?
Weight distribution?
Size of bike & Rider?

bit more info needed otherwise it's just guess work

Locking the front. I'm comfortable in most situations apart from steep stuff on the brakes. The problem is more than likely in my head but I'm clutching at straws and hoping that big rotors and Shimano's sharp brakes can be my scapegoat 🙁

Steep, slippy, loose stuff? Last thing you want to do is use the brakes.

What you need are wider, grippier tyres. 4" or thereabouts.

So are you locking the front?

Doing your braking before the steep/loose is always better, keeping weight on the front wheel and avoiding front braking (or at least heavy stuff) is a help. Perhaps

The problem is more than likely in my head but I'm clutching at straws and hoping that big rotors and Shimano's sharp brakes can be my scapegoat

5 posts in, boom!! You should get a bike fit as well.

More than likely nothing to do with rotor size just technique unfortunately 🙂 Have you fallen off?

Yep. If you need to, roll into the steep slippy and brake at the bottom, but braking on the way down is going to be interesting and possibly painful.

I have a skree slope that caused me problems for ages until I 'got' this.

There is some truth maybe in the rotors, they'll increase your leverage and decrease your modulation, but really this is about braking in the wrong place.

Pretty sure that I employ the exact opposite of ABS in these situations. As for skills courses, I have attended one or two..
I think Daz has half the answer, get off the brakes and steer & Mike has the other half, more weight on the front, I was just wondering if less fierce stoppers might help?

Nah Si, same old same old. Once I've mastered a section I'm fine but till I have 🙁

Going fast (relatively speaking) is easy, going slow and steep is much harder.

SLX M666 have great modulation if set up right. If they're too grabby it's your finger not the brake.

In that case it's just a balls thing. The less comfy I feel, the harder I squeeze (brakes not balls..!).

I've built some steep sketchy lines over winter, practice, practice, practice...

Just reread all that. Steep & straight I'm ok with,what about steep, wet & bendy?

Answers in the morning will be ok, I'm off to bed to dream of dusty trails 🙂

That's the problem then, you've built the line and looked at it and already decided it's going to be tricky.
If you'd never seen it before and just followed someone into the section you'd ride it no bother. Probably.

Just reread all that. Steep & straight I'm ok with,what about steep, wet & bendy?

I'm finding pulsing the front really helps because before you would have reacted to it locking and sliding it's unlocked, rolling and gripping again.

Steep Wet and Bendy? I don't know! but I know a man who does 🙂

Rockplough - Member

SLX M666 have great modulation if set up right. If they're too grabby it's your finger not the brake.

Do what?
Shimano brakes are well grabby! 🙂

SLX M666 have great modulation if set up right. If they're too grabby it's your finger not the brake.

Yet to find that modulation on my XT's (there must be a switch I'm missing)

Watching Joe Barnes is no help, he is going 100 times faster than me and doesn't appear to use brakes

My real problem is my need to ride a line slowly the first few times. This doesn't help on lines like these or gaps

How long are these steep lines? How slow can you enter them? There is stuff that I will enter at sub walking pace, almost track standing.

Sorry.but it's nothing to do with your brakes! And I don't buy the tale that shimano are on or off...I have no problem applying tiny amounts of power with mine.

You need practice on steep stuff. Look further ahead, ride the lines a little faster, don't position your body quite so far back.

My real problem is my need to ride a line slowly the first few times. This doesn't help on lines like these or gaps

Instead of those first few slow runs through it, could you instead walk down it and have a close look from the top and bottom to the point where you're happy about the line, then go for it at normal speed without braking? Or even walk your bike down it and see exactly how it's going to roll down, then just go for it? If you agree that it should be slow in then ridden without brakes, then it's only really the entry point and line you need to know I'd have thought.

try and keep your weight on your feet and head up, use your body to turn the bike more than trying to steer it. But every corner/rider is different, keep practicing a section till you find a good way down it.

tyres may help? and speed will pick up with practice 🙂

also be ready to jump off and grab a tree!

glasgowdan - Member

And I don't buy the tale that shimano are on or off

What are you comparing them to?

Yep, you've all confirmed what I already thought. Pad up and practice..

Apparently Shimano modulation is supposed to be improved in recent models?

My 785 XT's, my mates' and also his Zees modulate well so long has you don't grab a handful. The lever feel is different to my old Avids though and they need a softer touch the way I have mine set. They do lock more easily if provoked.

If you're over fond of your brakes then reducing rotor is simply going to make them get hotter. I'm still working on getting fear braking out of my ride. I still find myself pulling the lever when I didn't mean to sometimes. If tyres are fine and weight placement sorted etc, then wet and slippy shouldn't be the end.

In skiing, this sort of thing is handled by loading and unloading the outer edges with your heels in an alternating fashion, thereby controlling speed while pointing straight Downhill so you have the control to turn out at the end. I think it would take epic riding skills to translate this to a bike though without it becoming a pump motion and actually accelerating you...

'kinell mugboo

if you cant ride it then what hope have we got?

sbob - Member
glasgowdan - Member
And I don't buy the tale that shimano are on or off
What are you comparing them to?

I've just gone from (working) Avids to Shimano, keeping the same rotors. Different characteristics, but still loads of modulation, including on teh steep gnar that was shredded at the weekend.

Sadly Tom, just because I've built it doesn't mean I can ride it, if I can ride it first time it's too easy..

I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with brakes. More likely is that you have your weight too far back which is making your front wheel too light and unbalancing the bike.

Once you start getting the fear, the brakes lock up and you end up trying to get away from the danger by hanging off the back of the bike, which is the opposite of what you want.

Try getting lower rather than having all your weight over the rear try not to lock up the brakes!

I reckon that's right. Persuading my brain your right is the problem.

In fact I know it's right cos Jedi told me

Still running hope mono m4s on my lakes bike*, got a mix of new and old shimano on others. Bags and bags of modulation and ultimately not as much power as the shimano brakes. Maybe not the best for really slamming on the anchors at high speed but for mincing down steeeep thrutchy stuff at uber slow speed (which is kinda my thing) they are just the ticket.

5 posts in, boom!!

*does get ridden other places but mainly the lake district

OP has been on a skillz course or two and I'm a better rider for it but this stuff remains my nemesis. I'm fine with slow and thrutchy in the dry, poor once it gets proper slippy.

from logic and experience - if there is no grip then you cant slow down

its then just down to chucking your weight around to get some semblance of grip or slip - so tyres are more important than brakes

imoh anyway...not that I'm one to talk

Go for a smaller rotor, it helped me as I was the same with my 200mm. Easier to lock the front wheel so you push your weight further back rather than having the confidence some may assume a 200mm rotor would bring. A 180mm rotor and I still have plenty of power but less likely to lock it up and therefore find myself more confident over the front. It is still fundamentally a skill issue, a point of which I am only too aware, but I don't think a massive rotor helps matters.

Mugboo - Member

OP has been on a skillz course or two and I'm a better rider for it but this stuff remains my nemesis. I'm fine with slow and thrutchy in the dry, poor once it gets proper slippy.

Find a section of trail that embodies this "nemesis" of yours. Three or four corners with whatever slippery steep features you dislike. Ride it repeatedly. Aim to be slow but smooth, then build up the pace. You'll get there.

Also, whilst it most likely not the bike, it might be worth playing with your set up to make sure that your bar angle, brake position and stack height are correct. Also make sure that you're not running your fork too soft - this can lead to diving on the steep stuff, pitching you over the bars, steepening the ha and forcing you to panic brake. All of which leads to a feeling of fear and/or going out the front door.

Thank you Gotama, I can now skim over the rest of the advice and buy a new rotor

no - you need new tyres, a longer top-tube, wider bars and danny hart's saddle to cope with the bigger knackers you'll develop

Sounds like an issue with your self preservation instinct not the braking.

You need to carry more speed, or at least allow it to gather. Stay cool and brake gently if at all. Consider getting a stickier front tyre.

There's a line near me I first tried with the slow technique, ended up tree hugging, have now done it quite a few times and it's not difficult just a bit scary. (this is quite a straight section though - with tight corners in it might just be too much in the wet.)

Tom, this is sounding expensive

Phil, that sums it up perfectly!

Slow steep and muddy ends up with you slid on your arse down a hill when it goes tits, rarely is it that bad.

I reckon you just need to get out there and fall on your arse a bit, you'll soon get used to it and confidence will improve your riding.

Thank you one and all. I will wash down a huge piece MTFU pie with a vat of Monster and throw myself down the hill. Who wants my T4 if I'm badly maimed?

I spent some time a couple of weeks ago up at one of our steepest most switchbacky local spots, with Van Halen of this parish, trying to sort out my steep/loose/tight turn problems. VH isn't a skills coach, he's just a mate who's much better at steeps than me - we're similarly quick/slow* (*depending on your perspective) on less steep trails.

What he spotted was that I wasn't getting my weight far enough back, so I was causing the front tyre to push outwards (understeer), and I needed to shift my hips back and then pump the turns so that the back would lighten up, drift around to manage the tight line and then grip to exit. He described it as being like how you do parallel turns on skis, which made a lot of sense. And don't use the front brake in the corner but use the back brake to help the tyre drift and then grip.

After a bit of practice I was riding them much better, feeling unusually flowy for me on steep trails (these ones average about 25% gradient). So my top tip is to find a friend who can ride your problem sections and, between the two of you, work out what you're doing wrong, fix it and practise it.

I'm going to see Jedi later this year, so I'm looking forwards to working on the alpine switchbacks at Herts with him (and some bigger gaps!)

Thank you one and all. I will wash down a huge piece MTFU pie with a vat of Monster and throw myself down the hill. Who wants my T4 if I'm badly maimed?

No, don't do MTFU!

But I'll have the T4.

Btw - think I've got a spare 180mm rotor if you want to try it out...

the size of your rotor has nothing to do with it.. if you are locking up a 180/200 you could lock up a 160 rotor even more easily.

that joe barnes vid aint steep.

[url= http://videos.mtb-news.de/6267 ]THIS however is....[/url]

Been out this morning and rode some steepish lines with direction changes and off camber sections. Concentrated on being gentle on the anchors and staying low, centred, relaxed & looking further ahead. Hardly a slide and felt great. Cheers chaps, more practice 🙂

i found deores much more grabby than my M4 evos

I definitely have to think a bit farther ahead with the shimanos

Looks like i'm the only one who 'drops anchor' then?!

By that i mean lock the rear wheel, almost lock the front and use a gentle slipping of each to 'mountain goat' my way down steep, slippy tech stuff....

....waits for the riding gods on here to slam my technique!

Meh, it works for me....what trail erosion?!

Last Nov we did a long, shaley, steep, switchbacky section in the Lakes. Out of 12 riders, the only one that made it look easy looked like he was skiing.

Update.

As I suspected & you all agreed, it was nowt to do with my rotors.

While I am still no Joe Barnes, I have begun to master the steeper turns. Good body position, relaxed & letting go of the front anchor at the right point. The back wheel is allover the place and it feels great

And the trails have dried out....