[Closed] French Alps MTB guiding row in the Telegraph

comments are tame compared to some from here....

Perhaps the better way would be to head down the EU court route rather than risk it all (after getting the local qualifications)

Simon Butler has been fighting the French for years over this. I thought he won in court in Annecy in about 2006 but the French must be smarting from that defeat and have come back again. When we skied in 2013 in Les Gets the situation had worsened and British chalet girls were being arrested; ours had to take us out skiing by stealth and keep swopping clothing because the pisteurs were actively looking for them.

It's all about protectionism - when I worked for Ramblers Holidays in 1980 I saw a bunch of French kids doing their qualification as Accompagnateurs de Moyenne Montagne (a scaled-down guide) and it consisted of charging around an obstacle course in the valley bottom. Comical.

@globati. Maybe the company you stayed with could have tried not putting their staff at risk by offering stealth guiding...

Sorry if I'm being a bit thick, but what's stopping the Brits from just getting the desired French qualifications?

Most pro-european and yet they hate one of the most fundamental principles!?!

JEngledow - Member

Sorry if I'm being a bit thick, but what's stopping the Brits from just getting the desired French qualifications?

My guess is EC law arguably means they shouldn't have to.

French are notoriously "protect our own" on this issue.

Don't see the problem here, if he followed the local rules he would be ok no?

Founding principle of EC - "freedom of movement of labour".

Does anyone know what the equivalent UK qualification is to the French requirement? It's easy to say protectionism based on the story as written but I genuinely don't know what differentiates the UK and French qualifications. If it's a level playing field then fine but I don't get the impression that it is. 😯

Does anyone know what the equivalent UK qualification is to the French requirement?

Based on these 2 pages, sounds like the french have had to accept that IML + and MTB qualification is sufficient (cos, what else could you add to that really ...)

[url= http://www.ridethealps.com/about/become-a-mountain-bike-guide/ ]http://www.ridethealps.com/about/become-a-mountain-bike-guide/[/url]
[url= http://www.whiteroomchalet.com/sumFAQ.htm#12 ]http://www.whiteroomchalet.com/sumFAQ.htm#12[/url]

French law is used for the good of the French. A friend of mine was prosecuted 20 years ago for ski instruction. He had all the UK qualifications, but the French instructor qualification required him to ski a slalom course with 10% of the time of the top instructor - of no relevance to instruction, and not easy for a 55 year old.

In one way I think 'good on you' to the French. They have absolutely no problem with being hypocritical if it helps their own citizens get and stay in jobs. They've been doing it for years of course, in different ways, sticking the proverbial two fingers up to everyone else. That massive country and where do they build their big immigration holding centre? Sangatte, about three miles from being the closest part of France to Britain. Not so much as a blush.

I don't know why we bother trying to negotiate better terms for ourselves, why don't we just go 'in' 100% then just carry on as we please anyway? The French have been doing it for years. You can have your cake and eat it, it seems.

The ski test is called the Euro test, and i beleive it is normally set by a racer, so it is tough, most ski holiday companies aren't doing their own guiding now, i.e. Showing you around the mountain. The last year has seen an on slaught by the ESF to stop any non French companies with instructors not up to the French level being thrown of the mountain by the Gendermane.

I believe i read somewhere that if the French wish to guide bikes in the mountains then they have to go to the equivalent of Uni for a year.

Pitty we let anyone in this country.

Wouldn't mind getting a council house in the French Alps, housing benefit for me the missus and kids. Oh and free medical attention when I fall of my bike.

So due to the eu anyone can come and work in the uk but not the other way around! Sounds about right!

What? Trail Addiction aren't certified? Silly.

Like it or not, French law is French law and Trail Addiction has surely known fine well they have been operating outwith the law. Brits are completely entitled to follow the French guiding or instructing scheme for many sports in order to operate legally in France, and many do.

[url= http://trailaddiction.com/les-arcs-mountain-bike-guides-and-guiding/legal-battle-right-work-france-uk-qualified-mountain-bike-guide/ ]Trail Addiction's take on the situation[/url]

I hope he's got a lot of time on his hands and quite a bit of money too.......

Like it or not, French law is French law

I don't really see wht the issue is; he's ignored the law of the land in which he lives and wants to work, and will face the apropriate legal action. The same as any foreign national breaking any British laws here. Non-story really, and i fail to see why he would expect any sympathy.

Pitty we let anyone in this country.

Wouldn't mind getting a council house in the French Alps, housing benefit for me the missus and kids. Oh and free medical attention when I fall of my bike.

Oh dea. 🙄

And EU law is EU law. The EU has it's upsides and downsides and one of the upsides is mutual recognition of qualifications. Or should be, if France played by the rules.

That's a big 'if', though isn't it?

Plus ca change as the French would say.

The short answer is that this needs to go to court in France to provide a test case. It is a brave and committed person that does this and I wish him all the best in this.

If it is a protection racket, whether it is legal or not, it needs challenging. It feels like they have had enough of this and want to settle it once and for all.

Best of luck.

Couple of questios:

1: Are you required under UK law to have a 'professional' qualification in mountain bike guiding, to work as a mtb guide in the UK?

2: If the guide is operating illegally, are any customers thereofre not covere by any insurance they may have? Is the guide also uninsured for liability?

The stupid thing is, it isn't really a protection racket at all... Trailaddiction aren't taking jobs from locals, they're bringing in more tourists which means more lift passes, more restaurant visits, etc. We (ie the punters) actively choose guiding companies of british origin, for various reasons. Are there even french-run equivalents to Trailaddiction, White Room etc?

Worth checking out this article from Singletrack:

Good input from other guiding companies

he's ignored the law of the land in which he lives and wants to work, and will face the apropriate legal action. The same as any foreign national breaking any British laws here. Non-story really, and i fail to see why he would expect any sympathy.

Nope. If the UK were to flout EU law, it would be taken to task as it has loads of times. Exactly what should happen to the french. We're in the EU and the same rules should apply to all; beneficial or detrimental. It's what we all signed up for so France are going to have to suck it up.

Founding principle of EC - "freedom of movement of labour".

he's ignored the law of the land in which he lives and wants to work, and will face the appropriate legal action.

Care to point out where he's broken the law & which one? As I think in this [url= http://trailaddiction.com/les-arcs-mountain-bike-guides-and-guiding/legal-battle-right-work-france-uk-qualified-mountain-bike-guide/ ]link[/url] its explained quite succinctly that no such thing has happened....

Nope. If the UK were to flout EU law, it would be taken to task as it has loads of times. Exactly what should happen to the french. We're in the EU and the same rules should apply to all; beneficial or detrimental. It's what we all signed up for so France are going to have to suck it up.

Like the EU have prevented "the knowledge" test for London black cab licensing, so that French cabbies have flooded into London stealing jobs from our proud gobbie cockney asshats.

stoffel - Member

Couple of questios:

1: Are you required under UK law to have a 'professional' qualification in mountain bike guiding, to work as a mtb guide in the UK?

2: If the guide is operating illegally, are any customers thereofre not covere by any insurance they may have? Is the guide also uninsured for liability?

1. No. None at all. Good practice is to prove competence through either qualifications or experience.

2. (a) Depends on the clients insurance (b) Depends on his insurance company, see (1.), in that most insurance companies do not require you to hold qualification.

A couple of things from reading the blog.
Trail addiction could train the guide fro free. Book the a Two year course at any sporting university (which are free in France) with a speciality in cycling.
Or they could enter the exam as free-entrant(apparently it should be dead easy for them).
Furthermore the guide will have to go through first aid class (funny how trail addiction fail to mention that) which are hardly useless.
However if the owner is as professional as he pretend to be, I am very sure he will get this sorted.

It's what we all signed up for so France are going to have to suck it up.

Yeah, but they won't! If any single nation has made a speciality out of signing up to rules, then breaking them, then obfuscating and wriggling out of being held to account, then it's the French. I have a sneaking admiration for this in some ways.

The French attitude to the EU has always been one of "let's get as much as we can out of this whilst giving back as little as possible". Like what Britain is trying to do. The only difference is that the French have the good sense to sign up to things for appearance sake, then flout them. Britain seems to think that being up front in these matters is a good idea. Unfortunately the rest of non-German Europe are laughing behind their hands and furiously tossing us off!

Just my opinion, like. 😉

Care to point out where he's broken the law & which one?

Well, I imagine it's the one which requres hm to hold the correct qualification in order to work as a guide, no?

If you wish to prctice law in the UK, to you need to hold a qualification which allows you todo so, and as fair as I am awae, being qualified in law in another country does not qualify you to practice in the Uk, you have to go through the whole qualificatio process first. Which will cost you an awful lot of money.

I'm not aware of the Uk being held to account for 'preventing' foreign qualified lawyers from practicing here. Which they are, unless they hold a UK qualification.

Does the person in question here hold a Frenchqualification allowing him to work as a guide, as apparently is required under French law?

This in an interestng case, but I think he has a weak argument if any at all. He's been aware of the legal requirement and has ignored it.

Oh dear Mikey V has shown up on The Telegraph thread....

That's my evening sorted out!

@ stoffel. I think your argument is a little flawed. British law is only specific to Britain but if someone who has studied international law then they have every right to practice it in the UK and many do. MTB guiding is not specific to France.

stoffel have you read this [url= http://trailaddiction.com/les-arcs-mountain-bike-guides-and-guiding/legal-battle-right-work-france-uk-qualified-mountain-bike-guide/ ]link[/url]? Pretty much explains the situation I think.

As I understand it, the French think he's broken French law but EU law supersedes it in this instance..

Its all very well the French qualification being said to be a year at Uni but it does feature a lot of stuff that is relevent to aBtech diploma in sports science/tourism/business studies etc that really aren't relevant to the main issue of being guided safely on a mountain riding a bicycle.
Strangely the Scottish qualification is apparently better regarded by the French.

(Typed in stealth mode from a French campsite - sssh!)

stoffel - Member

I'm not aware of the Uk being held to account for 'preventing' foreign qualified lawyers from practicing here. Which they are, unless they hold a UK qualification.

That's not a useful comparison- UK law is different to French law, so a qualified French lawyer won't neccesarily have a clue about UK law. And vice versa of course. It's not a transferrable qualification, regardless of equivalence.

@ stoffel. I think your argument is a little flawed. British law is only specific to Britain but if someone who has studied international law then they have every right to practice it in the UK

'International law' isn't generally actually binding within particular countries; more, it is merely a set of guidlines, a framework around a set of consensual legal agreements between different countires. Anyone can study 'international law'; only those qualified to practise law in the UK can legally do so. I think you need to understand this a bit better.

MTB guiding is not specific to France.

Bu currently, there is no legal requirment to hold any qualifications to become a mtb guide in the UK, but there is in France, hence the need for anyone wishing to do so in France, to hold the necessaty qualifications. So, regardless of whatever 'professional' qualifications a person has in the UK, they aren't qualified in France.

stoffel have you read this link? Pretty much explains the situation I think.

Well, there's selctive quoting to suit Trail Addiction's argument, but actualy, when looking at all the relevant text, I don't personaly think it supports that. The way I see it is; you ae required under French law to hold a parcitular qualification in order to work as a guide. There is no equivalent UK qualification, therefore TA cannot reasonably argue that they hold an equivalent qualification. Ergo, TA have a weak or non-existant argument. This is my own personal view, ad I've yet to be convinced otherwise, although I'd like to see if there genuinely is a solid legal argument for TA.

That's not a useful comparison- UK law is different to French law, so a qualified French lawyer won't neccesarily have a clue about UK law. And vice versa of course. It's not a transferrable qualification, regardless of equivalence.

Thanks. I think this helps explain things firther.

French mountains are different to UK mountains, so a qualified UK guide won't neccesarily have a clue about French mountains. And vice versa of course. It's not a transferrable qualification, regardless of equivalence.

I think is what the French are trying to say?

rene59 - Member

French mountains are different to UK mountains, so a qualified UK guide won't neccesarily have a clue about French mountains.

But it's not a "mountain qualification" per se- the challenges that face a summer mtb guide in France are equivalent to those in Scotland or the UK. From that point of view, how is an alp different to a cairngorm?

The UK recognises there are two ways of demonstrating competence - experience or qualifications. Ali appears to have both of these and yet the french refuse to accept this is enough. Protectionism is what I'm going with.

Well, there's selctive quoting to suit Trail Addiction's argument,

Show me where exactly.

French mountains are different to UK mountains, so a qualified UK guide won't neccesarily have a clue about French mountains

Try telling that to any professional DH racer. you can't possible know how to handle a bike on zis terrain because you're English and know nuffin aboot our montanes

But it's not a "mountain qualification" per se- the challenges that face a summer mtb guide in France are equivalent to those in Scotland or the UK. From that point of view, how is an alp different to a cairngorm?

Well with the lifts it is a heck of a lot easier to get yourself into trouble. The alps are massively different to anything in the uk for any number of reasons but that's not the point. The point is, does the process you have to go through to get the qualification make it more or less impossible for someone not French to obtain it. I think they do structure it like this and I've heard many times from other guides in Switzerland and France that the policy while legal is blatantly not about safety and all about protectionism.

Show me where exactly.

Here:

*Definitions taken from EU Directive 2005/36/EC Article 3 points (a) and (e):

(a) ‘regulated profession’: a professional activity or group of professional activities, access to which, the pursuit of which, or one of the modes of pursuit of which is subject, directly or indirectly, by virtue of legislative, regulatory or administrative provisions to the possession of specific professional qualifications; in particular, the use of a professional title limited by legislative, regulatory or administrative provisions to holders of a given professional qualification shall constitute a mode of pursuit. Where the first sentence of this definition does not apply, a profession referred to in paragraph 2 shall be treated as a regulated profession;

(e) ‘regulated education and training’: any training which is specifically geared to the pursuit of a given profession and which comprises a course or courses complemented, where appropriate, by professional training, or probationary or professional practice.

Which excludes this:

(11)
In the case of the professions covered by the general system for the recognition of qualifications, hereinafter referred to as ‘the general system’, Member States should retain the right to lay down the minimum level of qualification required to ensure the quality of the services provided on their territory. However, pursuant to Articles 10, 39 and 43 of the Treaty, they should not require a national of a Member State to obtain qualifications, which they generally lay down only in terms of the diplomas awarded under their national educational system, where the person concerned has already obtained all or part of those qualifications in another Member State. As a result, it should be laid down that any host Member State in which a profession is regulated must take account of the qualifications obtained in another Member State and assess whether they correspond to those which it requires. The general system for recognition, however, does not prevent a Member State from making any person pursuing a profession on its territory subject to specific requirements due to the application of professional rules justified by the general public interest. Rules of this kind relate, for example, to organisation of the profession, professional standards, including those concerning ethics, and supervision and liability. Lastly, this Directive is not intended to interfere with Member States' legitimate interest in preventing any of their citizens from evading enforcement of the national law relating to professions.