This topic has come up on the past, but I couldn't find a precise answer using search, so advice please, if you have any.
I was out riding at the weekend, and needed to use a public footpath that cuts across some private land. Mindful of the fact that the landowner has a reputation for being somewhat difficult, Mrs NickF and I pushed out bikes along the path. All was going well until the landowner came rushing out, telling us that it was against the law to take bicycles along a footpath, and that we were trespassing. he then blocked the path, and called the police, alleging that I was about assault him.
So aside from his silly reaction, and his lies to the police, do his claims have any basis in [b]fact[/b]? Is it illegal to push a bicycle along a footpath, or is he mistaken? Furthermore, if he is mistaken, and he's blocking a path I'm legally allowed to use, does this mean that he's the one committing the offence?
You're right, he's wrong. Perfectly legal to push your bike along a footpath.
Of course, if you had ridden instead of pushing, he may not have had the time to get in front of you.
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/row-question-is-pushing-or-carrying-your-bike-on-a-footpath-legal ]Hive mind..[/url]
STW has some of the answers.. some of the time
It sounds like the landowner was right. In the eyes of the law you were trespassing as a bike is not seen as a natural accompaniment and he has the right to ask you to leave.
the criminal offense of assault will always be taken more seriously than the civil offense of trespass..
Sounds like a path to be missed out as its just to much hassle..
Did the police bother to turn up ?
So what happened? I had a bloke try every tactic in the book to basically get me to lamp him. Edging me close to falling over a ledge on the path, pushing me, in my face etc. He knew that I was bigger/stronger etc and was basically hoping with an assault he'd 'win his path' next to his home/force the Police into backing him.
Personally I'd report him even though it was a 'non-event' for you. I reported the bloke above to the Police and also spoke to the council/peeps (can't remember the name) with his description etc and what he was trying to do......as someone would actually react and lamp (reasonable) as his level of provocation was over what was acceptable..
He rang the police while I was there - at my urging, I might add - and I subsequently had a longer conversation with them. The police officer I spoke to seemed [i]very[/i] clear that I'd committed no infraction of the law in wheeling a bike along the path, but looking that these older threads makes me think that perhaps the landowner was correct, galling though that might be.
I'll have a chat to the the Herts right of way officer when I get some time.
not sure if your allowed to push a bike on a foot path (from a legal point of view)or not but I don't think he could stop you if you chucked it over your shoulder and carried it until you were orf his land.
Weird. Why would he call the Police? An attempt at intimidating you or had he been assaulted previously and was nervous?
He/it doesn't make sense- seemed OTT?
I see another mega topic coming!! Mods please close it now!!!
Weird. Why would he call the Police? An attempt at intimidating you or had he been assaulted previously and was nervous?He/it doesn't make sense- seemed OTT?
I don't know all the history, but it appears he's been abused and assaulted before (no idea by whom); given his attitude, I can understand why. He was foaming at the mouth - literally - though what drives this hatred is not clear.
Anyway, he blocked my access to the path. I made to push past him, and he stated that do get past I'd need to assault him, at which time he'd call the police, and I'd get a criminal record. I then pushed past him, and requested him to call the police. He was reluctant - I found out subsequently that he's had much contact with a weary-sounding PCSO, and I presume that he's cried wolf rather too often - but when he got on the phone he alleged that there was "about to be a breach of the peace", that he was scared, and that I'd threatened him.
All nonsense, but designed to get the police to come out, which they didn't do. He had to admit that I'd not [i]actually[/i] threatened him, just that he thought I might.
To my mind, it's simple; [b]either[/b] I'm in the wrong, was trespassing, and should have left, [b]or[/b] he was in the wrong, and in blocking my path was committing an offence himself. It has to be one or the other, surely?
Sounds familiar to my bloke however he was the one shoving me, wild-eyed, foaming!
Sounds like if anyone does assault him they'll probably get away with it given the fact he's known to the police. Always good to know if you've had a rough day at work 😉
Where's the path in question? Might be useful for the rest of us to know
We should do a mass trespass.
Slightly off topic. Is it just me or is there an increase in people claiming they were assaulted when they weren't?
I'm thinking about the ninja lady from last week and that thing in bath where the guy filmed a couple blocking a road and then she followed him threatening to go to the police and tell them he assaulted her.
How I see it- Saying you are being assaulted is designed to scare and make the other party back down. Or..... designed callously to get the other party arrested thus 'winning' the argument.
Imagine the distress that would cause 'hi honey, I've been arrested for alleged assaulting someone'.
Shows the twisted mindset of the person you are facing.
Even if your not allowed to push your bike along the path - that sounds completely bonkers and irrational.
I would be surprised if anyone who gave it some thought would say you were doing some harm and were in the wrong.
Personally Id ignor him and continue on as you were. Why dont you pop down to the local cop shop and ask them what they think. Afterall you dont want to waste their time or commit an offence.
You did better than me, Id have ridden it and been too fast for him to get me 🙂
Looks like I was in the wrong!
From the hertsdirect website
"The route of a footpath is shown by waymarks with yellow arrows
You have the right to walk together with any ‘normal accompaniment’ (e.g. a dog, pram, wheelchair).
You do not have the right to use a bicycle,[b] or even to wheel a bicycle along them[/b]. This is not a criminal offence, but a trespass against the landowner.
It is a criminal offence to drive a motor vehicle along a public footpath (unless you have a private right).
You do not have the right to ride or lead a horse or take a horse-drawn vehicle along a footpath, although it is not a criminal offence."
2 of you? Video camera on mobile 'phone FTW.
(I'd shoulder bike to appease Farmer Palmer.)
Why dont you pop down to the local cop shop and ask them what they think. Afterall you dont want to waste their time or commit an offence.
They'd cheerfully tell you it is a civil matter. There's no 'offence'. They only get involved when you start fisticuffing with the landowner.
It's not been established in law is my understanding, see here;
[url= http://www.walkmag.co.uk/features/ask-the-experts-spring-2011/ ]http://www.walkmag.co.uk/features/ask-the-experts-spring-2011/[/url]
[i]Can a landowner legally ban walkers from pushing or even carrying a bicycle along a public footpath? I thought the law allows having with you a ‘natural accompaniment’? Benjamin Gosling
Amy Cook: Unfortunately, there is no clear-cut answer in law to this question. By cycling along a footpath, an act of trespass is being committed against the landowner – unless of course the landowner has given permission. But a court has yet to rule whether a cyclist can push or carry their bicycle along a footpath. The term ‘natural accompaniment’ is still open to interpretation. The phrase is taken to mean dogs, pushchairs and mobility scooters, but could conceivably also include shopping trolleys and bicycles. Some argue that a bicycle is not a
‘natural accompaniment’ for the user of a footpath, so pushing or carrying one along the footpath could therefore be construed as trespass against the landholder, even if no byelaw or traffic order is infringed. It’s a grey area, I’m afraid![/i]
If you really wanted to push it I'd contact the CTC and see if they'll allow their legal team to back you if there was a case raised by the landowner?
They'd cheerfully tell you it is a civil matter. There's no 'offence'. They only get involved when you start fisticuffing with the landowner.
We had this last week:
Or if you keep doing it, then he can get an injunction against you, and a breach of this is a criminal offence which can carry jail time.
Basically, its his land; so ride around it if you can, either that or do a TJ and blame the Normans!
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scoot across on a balance bike...play with his mind
If you can't push a bike along a footpath are you allowed to carry it? Can the wheels of your bike touch the footpath as long as your bike is stationary? How about removing a wheel so it's not a complete bike? 🙂
I thought you werent allowed to RIDE on a footpath?
Pushing a bike is not riding. Its pushing.
If you can't push a bike along a footpath are you allowed to carry it? Can the wheels of your bike touch the footpath as long as your bike is stationary?
Going by the quote above from Herts Council, it would only be wrong to [i]wheel[/i] a bicycle along the footpath. I'd assume carrying it is OK.
And unless they have any actual bylaws in place I suspect they can't really back any of it up.
[i]Pushing a bike is not riding. Its pushing. [/i]
see above, it's currently seen in the same way as getting off a horse and leading it by the reins, not like a pushchair.
Out of interest how does someone serve an injuction on a rider who refuses to give any details to the landowner? Police won't turn out for a civil matter.
read the post above on [i]‘natural accompaniment’[/i]
He had probably just watched some mentalist insist that a young lady with a baby move her pram from a bike space on a busy train
Out of interest how does someone serve an injuction on a rider who refuses to give any details to the landowner
Yes I wonder. The ramblers local to me question this too.
How about if you carry the bike? 😉
In a pantomime horse outfit, carrying a bag with a bike in ik.
If it was my footpath, I'd have had you shot! Or at the very least, set the dogs on you
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Hoogy! The landlords landlord.
Out of interest how does someone serve an injuction on a rider who refuses to give any details to the landowner? Police won't turn out for a civil matter.
Photograph you or follow you to you car, I guess. Or say you were threatened, or felt threatended, accuse criminal damge (to gates, fences etc?) and the Police are supposed to do something about it.
Farmer behind my house, just corners any cyclist with his work crew (he is in his sixties, so mainly supervises) and mentions if he sees them again that their threatening behaviour will not be tolerated, as he finds cyclists intimidating
Oh, and if he knows where you live, you get a free trailer of cowshit parked outside your house for a few weeks, and the road you live in used to store various farm equipment......
Mind you he is known to be a little difficult......
you should move house to somewhere that landowners are not such plonkers, like the North
you should move house to somewhere that landowners are not such plonkers, like the North
Good for access, shit for jobs 😉
i think must mean north of the border
i can think of a bridleway near me that becomes a footpath for 50yds before connecting to Trans Pennine Trail and the guy in the adjacent house will come out and spout the law at you
sad that a law that was supposed to preserve the rights of the public is now used as a de facto maximum right
TBH its probably something for the householder to do with his life.
Has there been a case in court were a cyclist has been prosecuted for pushing a bike on a footpath? a good tactic is to carry a copy of any court case and just hand it to the person doing the moaning. if it is a grey area then he cant really enforce it and having something for him to read might sway him.
I had this very same issue with a farmer last year, i had no idea it was a footpath i was on as it was a farm track but i just truned around and left to save the agro.
just travel in the direction that means the quickest way off his land along the path is the way you want to go. then as soon as he accosts you make an offer to pay for any damage you may have caused, 1p should be sufficient, and offer to leave by the quickest route available to you. then you're complying with the law.
I thought there was a court case that had established that a cyclist pushing their bike on a footway (pavement) is a pedestrian, so it would be very difficult to argue that a cyclist pushing a bike on a footpath wasn't also a pedestrian. But because of the 'natural accompaniment' rules it is still a grey area.Has there been a case in court were a cyclist has been prosecuted for pushing a bike on a footpath?
Some of farmers I know, will think nothing of punching first then talking latter, not saying its right, its just the way some of them are 😉
Theres a farm in the Peaks with some antoginists on ski.....
what Go-pro for beligerent landowners?
Some of farmers I know, will think nothing of punching first
before CROW used to run on some "closed" moorland in the Peak and the "weapon" of choice was usually a dog
Shoulder the bike and then make sure your partner has a music player with those slapstick badum-tish noises on. Then as you're trying to negotiate with the landowner over where the path starts and ends you can spin round and smack him in the face with with the back wheel and an accompanying 30's car honk. First class.
I thought there was a court case that had established that a cyclist pushing their bike on a footway (pavement) is a pedestrian, so it would be very difficult to argue that a cyclist pushing a bike on a footpath wasn't also a pedestrian. But because of the 'natural accompaniment' rules it is still a grey area.
If I remember right, that was the case where they were knocked over on a Zebra crossing. Court ruled that they were a 'foot passenger'. Whatever that means.
Some of farmers I know, will think nothing of punching first then talking latter, not saying its right, its just the way some of them are
People seem to think that a spinning class and a leg wax a week means that you will be able to look after yourself easily, where in reality actually doing hard physical labour since being a teenager makes you a little more 'durable' than latte's, sauna's and hard cardo sessions on the exercise ball.
STW seems to occupy a strange world, where people believe a teenagers view of assault (ie: how dare he touch me!) is actually how the world works, and is very different to people who do physical jobs for a living.
I've been getting some work done on my house, and after chatting to the various builders during lunch, I have become aware that I've led a very sheltered life, as they all have done time in prison for assault, etc (to the point, if you haven't been inside you are an outsider). As sorting out disagreements with violence is pretty much the norm for a large chunk of our society and if someone is percieved to be taking the piss and you don't hurt them then you open yourself upto peer abuse and more people trying to rip you off.
Something to think about, when thinking whats he going to do about it...
Normal Accompaniment... Just off the top of my head these things do not constitute a normal accompaniment.
An Inflatable Shark
Giant Hamster Ball (a la Wayne Coyne)
A Surf Board
Stilts
A stuffed Barn Owl
A 20" canvas print of Paul Ross
A Wicker phallus
A Gimp
You get the idea, get some friends together, gather up some abnormal accompaniments, and put on a parade!!! (I'd suggest a sound system but that could give legitimate grounds for complaint, maybe you could all sing "bike" by pink floyd at a considerate and sensible volume.)
Funny, because I've experienced crappy builders (and a crap gas fitter) who agree to do the work, do half then expect 150% of the agreed amount. All you have to do is stand up to them and they back down.
They've been 'in prison' because pissed off customers put them there. Directly, or indirectly.
That's because you got an estimate Hora, what you would have wanted was a quote, and they more than likely increased the amount when they realised what a muppet you are.
Try refusing to pay the quoted amount at the end of a job, and see what happens.
They've been 'in prison' because pissed off customers put them there. Directly, or indirectly.
🙄
Most of them seem to have gone to prison due to the law of averages.
I love stw.
A thread about legal rights on footpaths ends up being about hora's ability to deal with the tradesmen he chooses to employ.
nickf - MemberI was out riding at the weekend, and [b]needed to[/b] use a public footpath that cuts across some private land. Mindful of the fact that the landowner has a reputation for being somewhat difficult
Sorry but if you knew the land was private and the guy had a reputation are you sure there was not another way you could have gone ?
You clearly knew riding the bike was a no no so to me it would make sense to avoid the path altogether
I thought you werent allowed to RIDE on a footpath?Pushing a bike is not riding. Its pushing.
Does the same apply to horsists?
Walking next to a horse as opposed to riding it, does that mean you don't need to stick to bridleways?
Granted, you don't push a horse.
Or carry one for that matter.
A thread about legal rights on footpaths ends up being about hora's ability to deal with the tradesmen he chooses to employ.
I'm firmly in the belief that 90% of all builders in Manchester that I've come across are either bullshi**ers, incompetent or sub-contract their work out to bullshi**ers and the incompetent.
Don't mess with farmers, they have been up since 03.30, are often found with their arms inside cows, and generally have at least one gun on the property.
Sorry but if you knew the land was private and the guy had a reputation are you sure there was not another way you could have gone ?You clearly knew riding the bike was a no no so to me it would make sense to avoid the path altogether
A fair question.
Thing is, the guy has a reputation for being difficult with everyone. I genuinely didn't think he'd go off on one about someone pushing a bike. I now realise that he will, and will probably avoid the area in future. Just annoying that the law is so vague on this.
Whereabouts in Herts is this ?
(Just so i can avoid ...)
I'm firmly in the belief that 90% of all builders in Manchester that I've come across are either bullshi**ers, incompetent or sub-contract their work out to bullshi**ers and the incompetent.
🙄
Says the 'recruitment consultant'
[i]Whereabouts in Herts is this ?
(Just so i can avoid ...) [/i]
Should it not be made a Strava segment?
Should it not be made a Strava segment?
that is an ammusing idea, two birds, one stone... (sorry I'm in the worried about strava camp)
Anyway, just to get serious for a moment. I have now heard from several sources including my MP that an Access Consultation is on the horizon. Maybe this is something we can also highlight as needing clarifacation in the short term. As it will allow people with inconsistent and bitty BW networks to link stuff together, pending further improvements and relaxations.
Individuals like this just like hating things and having arguements. Change the law and his petty hatings become irrelevent.
it's about time the law on a normal accompaniment was amended to include bicycles.
Normal Accompaniment... Just off the top of my head these things do not constitute a normal accompaniment.An Inflatable Shark
Giant Hamster Ball (a la Wayne Coyne)
A Surf Board
Stilts
A stuffed Barn Owl
A 20" canvas print of Paul Ross
A Wicker phallus
A GimpYou get the idea, get some friends together, gather up some abnormal accompaniments, and put on a parade!!! (I'd suggest a sound system but that could give legitimate grounds for complaint, maybe you could all sing "bike" by pink floyd at a considerate and sensible volume.)
Made oi larf, it did...
Individuals like this just like hating things and having arguements. Change the law and his petty hatings become irrelevent.
That's if they change it for our benefit.
If not, it just means we can't access some of our poorly linked Bridleways even by walking.
I have had problems locally with riding across footpaths, so I took to walking across them/gaining permission to ride on them - Some land owners still objected to me walking my bike across a footpath. One tried to knock me off my bike whilst I was riding along shortly after leaving his land, then got out with his shotgun and threatened to call the police, I said 'go ahead you've just pointed a shotgun at a minor...' I then blackmailed him into giving me permission to ride on his footpaths. But for assurance I did some research to see if I was in the wrong! My findings were that:
There's no binding precedent for a case on this matter, however the likelihood would be that you would be held 'not liable' in a court of law, this is on the basis that:
-A person on foot (i.e. a foot passenger) is legally allowed to walk on a footpath
-Crank v Brooks 1980 clearly states that a person walking with their bicycle along a zebra crossing is a foot passenger - whilst this isn't binding, it would be very hard to believe a judge not accepting this as a 'definition'
-a footpath is a pedestrian facility in the same way as a zebra crossing or footway, so it seems reasonable to assume that the law applies in the same way for footpaths
-No piece of statute states that you cannot walk a bicycle on a footpath, and the common law presumption is that if it isn't prohibited it must therefore be permitted
Thus it probably isn't a civil offence, and the chances of the case actually making it court a virtually nil.
NB-I have no formal legal qualifications.
andyl - Memberit's about time the law on a normal accompaniment was amended to include bicycles.
Can we add the Wicker phallus to the list
There's very short section of footpath near me, in the middle of two sections of bridleway. The footpath is short, straight and steep down. I reckon if I stood at the top and gave my bike a good push, from on the bridleway, it would roll all the way to the next bridleway at the bottom where I would pick it up again, thus avoiding me doing any pushing of said bike on the footpath What do you think? Legal? 🙂
No, the bike would almost certainly be braking the law and could be prosecuted. You'd be alright though.
I find all these accounts of belligerent farmers a bit odd.
If I had several thousand pounds worth of crops, animals, fencing and farm machinery left unattended over a large area, I'd be worried about one of the people I'd upset coming back late at night and taking revenge.
I'd be worried about one of the people I'd upset coming back late at night and taking revenge.
True, thats why they might be best to break your legs, as wheelchair access to some footpaths is terrible 😉
Indeed. If a cyclist is using a footpath to link two bridleways, then the bike is a 'normal accompaniment'.it's about time the law on a normal accompaniment was amended to include bicycles.
The definitive answer, is that there is no definitive answer. 😉
forget natural accompaniment, thats never been a part of the actual law, its very much 'old' or 'common' law, ie predating most of the rights of way statutes and there's a fairly strong argument that a bicycle is not one in the first place.
A bicycle being pushed *can* constitute a vehicle, there is also case law that a bicycle being pushed in certain circumstances is not seen as a vehicle. the circumstances of the legality of pushing a bicycle have simply never been judged at a high enough level for there to be a definitive answer - and the overarching rule for rights of way is a test of reasonableness (DPP Vs Jones)
There is a simple answer - and I'm 100% serious! - next time you go past his house, carry it 😀
Time to celebrate the anniversary of the Kinder Scout Trespass with a mass bike trespass maybe. This is totally out of hand, some people have too much time on their hands or a lack of genuinely important or enjoyable things going on in their lives.
4 of us pushed our bikes along a section of footpath linking 2 bridleways near Cheddar on the weekend and exchanged pleasantries with several walkers. When the crowd had cleared, and the footpath had a metalled surface we made a call to get on and ride - no harm done and some common sense employed. But a week ago some old git told me "you shouldnt be here!" as I passed him on the bridleway leading to the footpath (when I say "passed", I mean passed him at c.5mph giving him several meters of space and exchanging hellos with his wife).
People in this country are just naturally confrontational and small minded unfortunately. I often wonder if these same people would take it on themselves to enforce other offences / torts that they see taking place? Do they jump out in front of cars doing 33mph in a 30 zone or perform citizens arrests on litterers? I bet most of them wouldn't intervene in a mugging, let alone get involved in a genuinely important social or political conern. But if they are going to be petty about antiquated and badly drafted Land Laws then they at least ought to do their research and realise that trespass is very rarely a matter for the police in this country.
Live and let live.
(ramble over)
MidlandTrailquestsGraham - MemberI find all these accounts of belligerent farmers a bit odd.
If I had several thousand pounds worth of crops, animals, fencing and farm machinery left unattended over a large area, I'd be worried about one of the people I'd upset coming back late at night and taking revenge.
I think that's why most keep guns in lockers near their front doors, so they can grab them on their way out at night 😉
They also have a canny art of being in the middle of trouble when it breaks out.
I suggest a mass pushing of bikes along this particular path.
I just don't understand it. We got the same thing from the guy on the Ogwen in North Wales. Would spent his days following people and froffing at the mouth in a rage because people were on his river. If these people just stayed away and ingored the "problem" then the handful of people wouldmn't bother them. I can't see how it does any harm?
Always think of Winter hill when I think of daft footpaths. Why on earth are cyclist not allowed up this road?
[url= http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=winter+hill+lancashire&hl=en&ll=53.609957,-2.520131&spn=0.000002,0.001132&sll=50.064192,-4.042969&sspn=20.319108,37.089844&t=h&hnear=Winter+Hill&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.609957,-2.520131&panoid=ympZNDG6SfSU_Ik4LKrv7g&cbp=12,58.31,,0,0 ]Winter hill path[/url]
The CCTV shows a commitment to being a miserable jeremy hunt which certainly goes above and beyond.
Sheffield has a bylaw stating bicycles are not allowed on / along footpaths. Doesn't matter if it's riding or carrying or pushing, they are not allowed.
As a farmers son and having worked on farms in my youth this is always a tough call for me.
I can understand a land owners point of view and near frustration if people consistently ride across farmland, however it also addresses the more complex issue of the state of access legislation where historical factors outweigh common sense.
We may loose some BW's deemed as unsuitable for bikes/horses due to soft ground and gain some rockier FP's
However most farmers I know look and sound scary but are normally fine, like mountain bikers some are just t**ts.
I was out with my dad doing some fencing one day and a couple walked passed. After saying hello as asking how their day was, my dad calmly asked where they were headed. (currently 1 mile from the path) they said over where ever and to their great surprise he asked them to show him on the map. (Currently next to a distinctive wood near a stream clearly marked on the map) Finger points to footpath. After a short lesson in map reading we returned them on their way.