[Closed] Footpaths - legal advice please

Some of farmers I know, will think nothing of punching first

Shoulder the bike and then make sure your partner has a music player with those slapstick badum-tish noises on. Then as you're trying to negotiate with the landowner over where the path starts and ends you can spin round and smack him in the face with with the back wheel and an accompanying 30's car honk. First class.

I thought there was a court case that had established that a cyclist pushing their bike on a footway (pavement) is a pedestrian, so it would be very difficult to argue that a cyclist pushing a bike on a footpath wasn't also a pedestrian. But because of the 'natural accompaniment' rules it is still a grey area.

If I remember right, that was the case where they were knocked over on a Zebra crossing. Court ruled that they were a 'foot passenger'. Whatever that means.

Some of farmers I know, will think nothing of punching first then talking latter, not saying its right, its just the way some of them are

People seem to think that a spinning class and a leg wax a week means that you will be able to look after yourself easily, where in reality actually doing hard physical labour since being a teenager makes you a little more 'durable' than latte's, sauna's and hard cardo sessions on the exercise ball.

STW seems to occupy a strange world, where people believe a teenagers view of assault (ie: how dare he touch me!) is actually how the world works, and is very different to people who do physical jobs for a living.

I've been getting some work done on my house, and after chatting to the various builders during lunch, I have become aware that I've led a very sheltered life, as they all have done time in prison for assault, etc (to the point, if you haven't been inside you are an outsider). As sorting out disagreements with violence is pretty much the norm for a large chunk of our society and if someone is percieved to be taking the piss and you don't hurt them then you open yourself upto peer abuse and more people trying to rip you off.

Something to think about, when thinking whats he going to do about it...

Normal Accompaniment... Just off the top of my head these things do not constitute a normal accompaniment.

An Inflatable Shark
Giant Hamster Ball (a la Wayne Coyne)
A Surf Board
Stilts
A stuffed Barn Owl
A 20" canvas print of Paul Ross
A Wicker phallus
A Gimp

You get the idea, get some friends together, gather up some abnormal accompaniments, and put on a parade!!! (I'd suggest a sound system but that could give legitimate grounds for complaint, maybe you could all sing "bike" by pink floyd at a considerate and sensible volume.)

Funny, because I've experienced crappy builders (and a crap gas fitter) who agree to do the work, do half then expect 150% of the agreed amount. All you have to do is stand up to them and they back down.

They've been 'in prison' because pissed off customers put them there. Directly, or indirectly.

That's because you got an estimate Hora, what you would have wanted was a quote, and they more than likely increased the amount when they realised what a muppet you are.

Try refusing to pay the quoted amount at the end of a job, and see what happens.

They've been 'in prison' because pissed off customers put them there. Directly, or indirectly.

Most of them seem to have gone to prison due to the law of averages.

I love stw.

A thread about legal rights on footpaths ends up being about hora's ability to deal with the tradesmen he chooses to employ.

nickf - Member

I was out riding at the weekend, and [b]needed to[/b] use a public footpath that cuts across some private land. Mindful of the fact that the landowner has a reputation for being somewhat difficult

Sorry but if you knew the land was private and the guy had a reputation are you sure there was not another way you could have gone ?

You clearly knew riding the bike was a no no so to me it would make sense to avoid the path altogether

I thought you werent allowed to RIDE on a footpath?

Pushing a bike is not riding. Its pushing.

Does the same apply to horsists?

Walking next to a horse as opposed to riding it, does that mean you don't need to stick to bridleways?

Granted, you don't push a horse.
Or carry one for that matter.

A thread about legal rights on footpaths ends up being about hora's ability to deal with the tradesmen he chooses to employ.

I'm firmly in the belief that 90% of all builders in Manchester that I've come across are either bullshi**ers, incompetent or sub-contract their work out to bullshi**ers and the incompetent.

Don't mess with farmers, they have been up since 03.30, are often found with their arms inside cows, and generally have at least one gun on the property.

Sorry but if you knew the land was private and the guy had a reputation are you sure there was not another way you could have gone ?

You clearly knew riding the bike was a no no so to me it would make sense to avoid the path altogether

A fair question.

Thing is, the guy has a reputation for being difficult with everyone. I genuinely didn't think he'd go off on one about someone pushing a bike. I now realise that he will, and will probably avoid the area in future. Just annoying that the law is so vague on this.

Whereabouts in Herts is this ?

(Just so i can avoid ...)

I'm firmly in the belief that 90% of all builders in Manchester that I've come across are either bullshi**ers, incompetent or sub-contract their work out to bullshi**ers and the incompetent.

🙄

Says the 'recruitment consultant'

[i]Whereabouts in Herts is this ?

(Just so i can avoid ...) [/i]

Should it not be made a Strava segment?

Should it not be made a Strava segment?

that is an ammusing idea, two birds, one stone... (sorry I'm in the worried about strava camp)

Anyway, just to get serious for a moment. I have now heard from several sources including my MP that an Access Consultation is on the horizon. Maybe this is something we can also highlight as needing clarifacation in the short term. As it will allow people with inconsistent and bitty BW networks to link stuff together, pending further improvements and relaxations.

Individuals like this just like hating things and having arguements. Change the law and his petty hatings become irrelevent.

it's about time the law on a normal accompaniment was amended to include bicycles.

Normal Accompaniment... Just off the top of my head these things do not constitute a normal accompaniment.

An Inflatable Shark
Giant Hamster Ball (a la Wayne Coyne)
A Surf Board
Stilts
A stuffed Barn Owl
A 20" canvas print of Paul Ross
A Wicker phallus
A Gimp

You get the idea, get some friends together, gather up some abnormal accompaniments, and put on a parade!!! (I'd suggest a sound system but that could give legitimate grounds for complaint, maybe you could all sing "bike" by pink floyd at a considerate and sensible volume.)

Individuals like this just like hating things and having arguements. Change the law and his petty hatings become irrelevent.

That's if they change it for our benefit.

If not, it just means we can't access some of our poorly linked Bridleways even by walking.

I have had problems locally with riding across footpaths, so I took to walking across them/gaining permission to ride on them - Some land owners still objected to me walking my bike across a footpath. One tried to knock me off my bike whilst I was riding along shortly after leaving his land, then got out with his shotgun and threatened to call the police, I said 'go ahead you've just pointed a shotgun at a minor...' I then blackmailed him into giving me permission to ride on his footpaths. But for assurance I did some research to see if I was in the wrong! My findings were that:

There's no binding precedent for a case on this matter, however the likelihood would be that you would be held 'not liable' in a court of law, this is on the basis that:
-A person on foot (i.e. a foot passenger) is legally allowed to walk on a footpath
-Crank v Brooks 1980 clearly states that a person walking with their bicycle along a zebra crossing is a foot passenger - whilst this isn't binding, it would be very hard to believe a judge not accepting this as a 'definition'
-a footpath is a pedestrian facility in the same way as a zebra crossing or footway, so it seems reasonable to assume that the law applies in the same way for footpaths
-No piece of statute states that you cannot walk a bicycle on a footpath, and the common law presumption is that if it isn't prohibited it must therefore be permitted

Thus it probably isn't a civil offence, and the chances of the case actually making it court a virtually nil.

NB-I have no formal legal qualifications.

andyl - Member

it's about time the law on a normal accompaniment was amended to include bicycles.

Can we add the Wicker phallus to the list

There's very short section of footpath near me, in the middle of two sections of bridleway. The footpath is short, straight and steep down. I reckon if I stood at the top and gave my bike a good push, from on the bridleway, it would roll all the way to the next bridleway at the bottom where I would pick it up again, thus avoiding me doing any pushing of said bike on the footpath What do you think? Legal? 🙂

No, the bike would almost certainly be braking the law and could be prosecuted. You'd be alright though.

I find all these accounts of belligerent farmers a bit odd.
If I had several thousand pounds worth of crops, animals, fencing and farm machinery left unattended over a large area, I'd be worried about one of the people I'd upset coming back late at night and taking revenge.

I'd be worried about one of the people I'd upset coming back late at night and taking revenge.

True, thats why they might be best to break your legs, as wheelchair access to some footpaths is terrible 😉

it's about time the law on a normal accompaniment was amended to include bicycles.

The definitive answer, is that there is no definitive answer. 😉

forget natural accompaniment, thats never been a part of the actual law, its very much 'old' or 'common' law, ie predating most of the rights of way statutes and there's a fairly strong argument that a bicycle is not one in the first place.

A bicycle being pushed *can* constitute a vehicle, there is also case law that a bicycle being pushed in certain circumstances is not seen as a vehicle. the circumstances of the legality of pushing a bicycle have simply never been judged at a high enough level for there to be a definitive answer - and the overarching rule for rights of way is a test of reasonableness (DPP Vs Jones)

There is a simple answer - and I'm 100% serious! - next time you go past his house, carry it 😀

Time to celebrate the anniversary of the Kinder Scout Trespass with a mass bike trespass maybe. This is totally out of hand, some people have too much time on their hands or a lack of genuinely important or enjoyable things going on in their lives.

4 of us pushed our bikes along a section of footpath linking 2 bridleways near Cheddar on the weekend and exchanged pleasantries with several walkers. When the crowd had cleared, and the footpath had a metalled surface we made a call to get on and ride - no harm done and some common sense employed. But a week ago some old git told me "you shouldnt be here!" as I passed him on the bridleway leading to the footpath (when I say "passed", I mean passed him at c.5mph giving him several meters of space and exchanging hellos with his wife).

People in this country are just naturally confrontational and small minded unfortunately. I often wonder if these same people would take it on themselves to enforce other offences / torts that they see taking place? Do they jump out in front of cars doing 33mph in a 30 zone or perform citizens arrests on litterers? I bet most of them wouldn't intervene in a mugging, let alone get involved in a genuinely important social or political conern. But if they are going to be petty about antiquated and badly drafted Land Laws then they at least ought to do their research and realise that trespass is very rarely a matter for the police in this country.

Live and let live.

(ramble over)

MidlandTrailquestsGraham - Member

I find all these accounts of belligerent farmers a bit odd.
If I had several thousand pounds worth of crops, animals, fencing and farm machinery left unattended over a large area, I'd be worried about one of the people I'd upset coming back late at night and taking revenge.

I think that's why most keep guns in lockers near their front doors, so they can grab them on their way out at night 😉

They also have a canny art of being in the middle of trouble when it breaks out.

I suggest a mass pushing of bikes along this particular path.

I just don't understand it. We got the same thing from the guy on the Ogwen in North Wales. Would spent his days following people and froffing at the mouth in a rage because people were on his river. If these people just stayed away and ingored the "problem" then the handful of people wouldmn't bother them. I can't see how it does any harm?

Always think of Winter hill when I think of daft footpaths. Why on earth are cyclist not allowed up this road?

[url= http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=winter+hill+lancashire&hl=en&ll=53.609957,-2.520131&spn=0.000002,0.001132&sll=50.064192,-4.042969&sspn=20.319108,37.089844&t=h&hnear=Winter+Hill&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.609957,-2.520131&panoid=ympZNDG6SfSU_Ik4LKrv7g&cbp=12,58.31,,0,0 ]Winter hill path[/url]

The CCTV shows a commitment to being a miserable jeremy hunt which certainly goes above and beyond.

Sheffield has a bylaw stating bicycles are not allowed on / along footpaths. Doesn't matter if it's riding or carrying or pushing, they are not allowed.

As a farmers son and having worked on farms in my youth this is always a tough call for me.

I can understand a land owners point of view and near frustration if people consistently ride across farmland, however it also addresses the more complex issue of the state of access legislation where historical factors outweigh common sense.

We may loose some BW's deemed as unsuitable for bikes/horses due to soft ground and gain some rockier FP's

However most farmers I know look and sound scary but are normally fine, like mountain bikers some are just t**ts.

I was out with my dad doing some fencing one day and a couple walked passed. After saying hello as asking how their day was, my dad calmly asked where they were headed. (currently 1 mile from the path) they said over where ever and to their great surprise he asked them to show him on the map. (Currently next to a distinctive wood near a stream clearly marked on the map) Finger points to footpath. After a short lesson in map reading we returned them on their way.

podge, any idea what year it was brought in? Interested if its a recent thing or dates back to the fifties and just becasme the status quo

I thought natural accompaniment was/is to prevent the "No I wasn't [i]riding[/i] my bike, honest!" excuse if someone does get caught riding cheeky.

can someone clarify what the Strava Worry is?

Strava worry discussed in a few other threads, is both the sharing of secret cheeky rides, and the urge of people cut corners and straight line paths to get the fastest time on a 'section'. Apparently it allows timings on specific sections.

Personally i don't think it will help people do anything they could not do before, but it might encourage the type of epople who straight line to get fastest time to do so (or put in extra runs to shave seconds), or increase the number of people on a cheeky path which at the moment is tolerated by community/landowner. Its a factor in the big world of factors, how big remains to be seen.

the urge of people cut corners and straight line paths to get the fastest time on a 'section'

the sharing of secret cheeky rides

*I'm torn on this, keeping them secret seems daft but I can see the reasoning.

Podge, do you know exactly which byelaw?

It would be exceptional for a byelaw to be written which extended to land not owned by the authority in question.

I think its more likley that there is a byelaw that covers council lands, and people are, ahem, 'extrapolating it' ultra vires.

and after chatting to the various builders during lunch, I have become aware that I've led a very sheltered life, as they all have done time in prison for assault, etc

No offence but you are taring all manual workers with this brush? My ex girlfriend and all her family are manual workers (pretty much); they are also cultured go to watch opera among other things like national trust visits. Handle themselves yes they can scrap and aren't afraid to either; done time for assault no. You have employed a bunch of cowboys I reckon so don't quibble over the extras they have done for you or they may be spending time inside for assault again.

On the Strava side of things...

Bad form to create a segment which uses a FP ? 🙂

My ex girlfriend and all her family are manual workers (pretty much); they are also cultured go to watch opera among other things like national trust visits

a little bit frightening and intimerdating what an accusation to the police can do.
i visit and work in many homes a week, and recently i was desterbed from my slumbers at 8am on a sunday morning by the boys in blue.. cop car outside the tts residence the lot and asked to accompany them to the station to make a statement.
so with judge judy who lives next door off we went.
it seems that a house i had visited had been burgled, and the occupier although absent during the crime identified me as the culprit. when i say recently it was 16 weeks before the crime and the crime took place almost 5 months ago!
but the tenant had obviously sussed me out as a career criminal by my close set eyes and so armed with her statement i spent a sunday morning answering questions about my desire for a 48 inch telly and various computer games and consoles.
obviuosly i was released on the basis that an eye witness identified a youth of about 16 wearing a hoody and pushing a wheel barrow was seen visiting the premises.
but i had a lot of explaing to do to the mrs and the landlord, who the tenant had happily advised i was arrested.
not an experince i'd relish again even if it did add a little colour to after dinner conversations.

The North Downs Way is a tricky one as it alternates between FP and BW. Never quite sure what to do on section across the Hampton Estate as this is officially FP and has the stiles etc. Tend to ride these days but used to push across it. Always go v slowly if there are any walkers though just in case.