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If they haven't seen you they haven't seen you. Unfortunately most people assume where the hazard will be and look there and make the manoeuvre. They don't look near or far thereby missing cyclists and motorcyclists.
I use to commute on one of these, plus Police-styled reflective jacket and white helmet. Folk often didn't see me, or more correctly didn't LOOK.
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On alot of roads - just because legally you can ride on the road doesn't mean you should (using common sense). Same applies to ALOT of A roads IMO
And that's how this country has got [i]cyclists[/i] thinking..
hora - Member
I've said this before... I almost killed a cyclist as I didn't see him (he was already on the roundabout and well lit, although why he was on a dual carriageway fast and busy industrial estate roundabout when there are dedicated cyclepaths around it for miles who knows but hey)..
Time trialling, obviously...
And that's how this country has got cyclists thinking..
The A dual carriageway link from Stockport to Hope/Edale etc - regularly cars do circa 80mph down its fairly wide open sweepiness yet you still see the odd cyclist risking it. No ta.
On alot of roads - just because legally you can ride on the road doesn't mean you should (using common sense). Same applies to ALOT of A roads IMO
This is why the UK needs to come in line with the rest of Europe with regards to Presumed Liability, given that the UK is one of the only major countries that does not have it. It forces drivers to slow down and respect vulnerable road users.
It should be the responsibility of the operator of a vehicle to ensure the safety of any vulnerable road users that they are around. After all they have been 'trained' to use it and know the damage it can cause. If you walk down the street and a Policeman is carrying a gun, you don't expect him to shoot you, then say well you should have been wearing body armour, it is therefore your fault. You expect him to use the gun as he has been trained with it and safely around general members of the public.
hora, even for you that's an odd post...
in 5 lines you've managed to admit to not seeing a cyclist, blame him for that, and then also suggest that other cyclists should stay off other roads! (presumably in case you/others don't see them as well?)
Perhaps instead it would be nice if people looked where they were going.
FWIW, this was on a normal road, one lane going each way, on a wide straight section, in good visibility, with very little traffic, just me and the car in question, in a 30mph limit.
Never mind that, it's A LOT, not alot. 😉
On alot of roads - just because legally you can [s]ride[/s] drive fast on the road doesn't mean you should (using common sense)
because there may be other perfectly legal and expected users on the road, like cyclists, mopeds, horses, milk floats, tricycles, traction engines, or even broken down vehicles, debris, animals... need I go on?
Your solution seems to be to push the vulnerable off the roads, and then justify it by saying its too dangerous for them (because you* make it dangerous), hardly a sensible and forward thinking approach is it?
*maybe not you personally, but you as a member of the collective group of users introducing the danger.
in 5 lines you've managed to admit to not seeing a cyclist, blame him for that, and then also suggest that other cyclists should stay off other roads! (presumably in case you/others don't see them as well?)Perhaps instead it would be nice if people looked where they were going.
+1
Maybe just an idea, but perhaps what he was doing was going about his business. Maybe going / coming from work or whatever. The same as you probably. Or maybe he was a thrill seeker getting kicks out of incompetent drivers trying to kill him.
No - I'm saying on certain roads (i.e. alot of dual carriageway A roads) and my own experience- in Trafford Park. If you know the area its lethal at rush hour for drivers nevermind cyclists. The cyclist I almost took out was on a huge sweeping two-lane roundabout where at rush hour its normal for people to enter the roundabout in an organised madness of 30mph+ without stopping to get across before a car to your right is on you.
With this is mind - and the fact that the bloody area has cycle lanes galore why would you cycle on there at rush hour?
I've had idiots in cars go to overtake/undertake you at speed to make an exit that you are passing (to go off the next one) - even though I'm in the correct lane and indicating with my right indicator still)- trucks pull out with a car still on the roundabout - and plenty of crashes because of all these.
Why would you leave the safety of a cycle lane under such circumstances?
Unless it was in a rush yourself and wanted to save yourself 1minute of your time on the total commute?
"Why would you leave the safety of a cycle lane under such circumstances?"
Why does that matter? You didn't see him, you should have seen him, and that's all there is to it as far as I can see
^^^
How does any of this relate to the OP or thread discussion so far? Far as I can see it's just more 'cyclists shouldn't use the roads round my way' dressed up in "Careful out there" resigned world-weariness.
Unless it was in a rush yourself and wanted to save yourself 1minute of your time on the total commute?
Is his rush less legitimate than yours?
I mean presumably you were there yourself for a valid reason, he might just as well have asked you why you didn't take a different route, afterall:
If you know the area its lethal at rush hour for drivers nevermind cyclists.
The cyclist I almost took out was on a huge sweeping two-lane roundabout where at rush hour its normal for people to enter the roundabout in an organised madness of 30mph+ without stopping to get across before a car to your right is on you
And again, your're suggesting instead of fixing the cause of problem, we just shunt the victms off somewhere else.
fix the behaviour and it's no longer dangerous for anyone.
There are many legitimate reasons for not using a particular cycle path, they've been discussed to death, but it always comes back to this same argument of pushing the vulnerable out of the way so that the less vulnerable can carry on behaving dangerously.
Just stop being dangerous and we can all get along safely!
Sadly this has drifted a bit off topic, not surprising though as these threads always degenerate into the same madness.
stop worrying about it and concentrate on your drivingWhy would you leave the safety of a cycle lane under such circumstances?
stop worrying about it and concentrate on your driving
yes, after I've changed the CD
hora: why would [i]you[/i] drive through there at rush hour??
There are back roads galore and I hear that area is "lethal at rush hour for drivers".
Why would you leave the safety of a back roads under such circumstances?
Unless it was in a rush yourself and wanted to save yourself 1minute of your time on the total commute?
There are no backroads there. To get to and from the centre of Trafford Park you need to use...Trafford Park.
It was a rhetorical question supposed to make you see the irrelevance of questioning why someone should choose to be there.
Their justification for being there has no impact at all on your responsibility not to hit them.
If there are a collection of fast moving, hectic roads at rush hour with accidents/near misses - would you ride on those same roads at those times?
I most certainly wouldn't. Again, sometimes just because you can shouldn't mean you should. Self preservation and listening to that little voice in your head should take precedent.
Another road- different road locally -the A56 past timperley and Sale. In both directions its just not safe at mid-week rush hour. There ARE back roads that I use. Often though I see cyclists going up and down.
Not a chance. Again, self preservation should overcome time saving.
Air Zound bike horns are good for attracting attention, they're 115 decibels.
so I presume you drive everywhere at 15mph?Again, self preservation should overcome time saving.
That's a really bleak way of looking at it.
What you're basically saying is that in your opinion, a section of road appears too dangerous to ride on, and you'll avoid it. That's fair enough, your risk assessment. However, for someone who isn't a really keen, confident rider they might decide riding to the shops is too risky because of the careless / dangerous driving. They might decide it's too dangerous for their kids to ride to school. You also admit your own driving to careless from time to time to illustrate how dangerous it is.
The whole thing is messed up. We, as a society, should be aiming for a point where people don't feel scared to walk or cycle because of shoddy driving.
FFS
If there are a collection of fast moving, hectic roads at rush hour with accidents/near misses - would you ride on those same roads at those times?
If I needed to, yes. Maybe they need to be somewhere at a certain time that entails using that road, you know, like commuting.
Again, sometimes just because you can shouldn't mean you should.
That's a judgement call, yours is totally invalid when applied to someone else. They're not doing anything wrong in using the road, your 'might is right' attitude is bizarre, frankly.
Self preservation and listening to that little voice in your head should take precedent.
In your case I'd suggest you stop listening to the voices in your head.
There are no backroads there. To get to and from the centre of Trafford Park you need to use...Trafford Park.
Bollocks. I lived in Sale for a couple of years. There are back roads around Trafford Park if you [i]really[/i] want to avoid the dual carriageway.
But you won't use them because they take longer. Even though the alternative is apparently "lethal".
So if you make that decision, why are you so quick to question someone else making it?
I'm beginning to believe they have seen me but just don't give a shit.Unfortunately this plus lots. The Audi estate was a prime example of this on Tuesday night. He was determined he was coming past no matter what. The part that really got my goat was the bicycle wheel visible in the boot of the car as he squeezed past. Utter chump of the highest order. Oh and I was wearing a yellow jacket, yellow gloves and yellow overshoes with a 100 lumen rear light and reflectives on everything.
You had me at 'Audi' - you needn't have even added 'Estate'. Had to take the dog to the Vets, to have stitches removed, this morning - in the 115 minutes each way drive, there must have been at least 6 examples of awful driving from Audis. I don't like stereotyping people (apart from Nissan Micra drivers), but Audis really are driven badly far too often.
I'm kinda with Hora on banning cyclists from (propper motorway styled) DC's, it's a daft situation where we were never allowed to ride on motorways because it's too dangerous, yet DC's can be motorways in all but name and some people ride on them. but as bikes are allowed there you have to look out for the occasional suicidal nutter.
Roundabouts though, you're suposed to be going relatively slowly and looking out for others. I have to turn right through this on my evening commute. There is a cycle path through it but it involves 6 (or maybe 7 I can't remember) toucan crossings which take forever to change, whereas if I join the traffic I can get round it in one sequence.
I broadly disagree, if it's a 70 and there are [b]good[/b] alternative road links then [i]maybe*[/i] make it a "special" A road, there are a few about, if it's slower and the alternatives are shite or none existent then obviously leave well alone. DCs [i]should[/i] be safe, yes there's the speed differential but good sight lines, multiple lanes, few junctions, if drivers actually looked where they were going, learned to share and overtook properly they'd probably be fine. (i'd still prefer fast prioritised cycle only infrastructure but I'm not going to get it anytime soon)I'm kinda with Hora on banning cyclists from (propper motorway styled) DC's.
*removing cyclists from some DCs would mean even fewer drivers expecting and looking out for them on the few remaining ones.
I've not read any posts bar the first one but I had three very near misses yesterday morning which is pretty unusual.
First one driver comes out of the 1st exit of a roundabout I'm in the middle of, completely oblivious to my presence.
Next one driver does a u-turn in the road into my path then slams on the brakes after spotting me.
Lastly driver pulls out of side road into my path.
I was wearing a red jacket, had a bright light on constant and another on flash and it wasn't even dark.
I reckon the lazy bastards just didn't clear there side windows so couldn't see anything coming or not.
Fortunately I had the road sense to expect these things so was prepared to act accordingly but a less experienced rider would have been knocked off.
[i]I've said this before... I almost killed a cyclist as I didn't see him (he was already on the roundabout and well lit, although why he was on a dual carriageway fast and busy industrial estate roundabout when there are dedicated cyclepaths around it for miles who knows but hey)..[/i]
Okay I can't resist. There are quite a few roads I wouldn't ride on and I see others on them and think wtf but its there choice. Can you explain why you failed to see the rider please?
Doesn't matter how visible you are if the driver doesn't actually look.
Yeh I know and I presume that's why hora didn't see the rider. The incident he described is similar to my experience yesterday, although not a dual carraigway, just wondering why.
[url= https://www.google.co.uk/maps/ @55.7670242,-4.3457049,3a,75y,53.54h,98.82t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sWXRT36mxVyfnGYVjWQ5HRg!2e0]roundabout incident happened here[/url]
Cars also hit each other when the drivers don't look - so it's not just cyclists!
I'm sure horas reason will be far more complex, I'll be gutted if it was a simple smidsy
I looked, approaching at a reasonable speed (no intention to stop as it was clear), I then looked again before crossing the line. At that point mrshora shouted 'lookout the cyclist' and I immediately hit the wheel left hard to take the left junction turnoff (rather than heading straight over as I originally intended). Que angry cyclist waving/shouting. I drove on up the road and pulled in where safe/jumped out and waited for him and thoroughly apologised.
My words? I didn't see you and I checked twice.
He was lit up, wearing the kit and when I repeated it again he was shaken. So was I.
I've got good vision (tested annually), I was hydrated, not tired, know the road/area very well, wasn't blinded by sunlight, wasn't distracted by music.
It happens. Sadly. One thing I will say -similar to a motorcyclist - its a very slender/slim profile head on when seen against a urban/busy background. I can't explain away that day- just offer a possible idea why I didn't see?
In my case though the rider could have exercised abit of common sense. Trafford Park at rush hour is not a safe place for vunerable road users (or pedestrians).
I can't explain away that day
hora: read [url= http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/ ]that article on Saccadic Masking[/url] - it sounds like it may ring some bells with you.
In my case though the rider could have exercised abit of common sense. Trafford Park at rush hour is not a safe place for vunerable road users (or pedestrians).
From the sounds of it he could just as easily have been a motorcyclist or moped rider.
I'll be gutted if it was a simple smidsy
SMIDSY isn't simple. Our brains aren't reliable.
I once pulled out right infront of a car at a roundabout. Why? No idea. I just did. I saw him, I saw him slam on and look angry.
Thanks for the explanation hora. [i]know the road/area very well,[/i], that could well have been the cause, familiarity can lead to complacency.
I wasn't on a busy road though, the driver really didn't look at all. I reckon they looked up the hill as they approached the roundabout, didn't see any cars so knew it would be clear when they got there.
Thanks for the explanation Hora, and thank you for being honest about it, but please leave this bit out next time:
In my case though the rider could have exercised abit of common sense. Trafford Park at rush hour is not a safe place for vunerable road users (or pedestrians).
It's just trying (even sub-consciously) to shift the blame partially onto him for [b]simply being there[/b], which is just not on.
You didn't see him, it does happen, you were aplogetic, and hopefully have learned from it, but it was not in any way shape or form his fault for simply being there, whether you think it's common sense to avoid that particular place or not.
Ride your bike at 4.30-5pm around the big Trafford prk roundabouts in Eccles then we'll reconvene.
long ride to get there from Devon, might not make it with all the other motorists not seeing me 😉
You're still trying to mitigate your mistake by blaming him for being there.
You've kind of explained why you didn't see the cyclist Hora in your thought processes above. You don't believe a cyclist should be there because you wouldn't ride there; therefore you were not looking for a cyclist, you sub-conciously wouldn't expect to see one.
It's a problem with a huge number of drivers; they don't see the cyclist not because they're not looking but because they don't correlate cyclist with road user, they're just not looking for cyclists. It doesn't compute in their thought process.
The answer is not to ban cyclists from the road as you suggest but to make drivers of motor vehicles accept responsibility to safely share the road by being aware of other users.
If you're in a solid metal box, a cyclist simply doesn't represent a danger to you... you can drive how you like and you won't be the one who gets hurt. People often act more carelessly when they feel safe from the impact of any mistake or poor behaviour...
Interestingly, the government put out a press release today stating that many drivers are failing to anticipate possible dangers... my main thought was that any regular cyclist can tell you this... it's endemic and feels like it's getting worse. I think modern cars protect the driver too well and insulate them from the outside world... put more people on bikes in fast and heavy traffic and get them to feel the fear. Then they might learn.
[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/news/country-roads-deadlier-than-you-think ]'UK drivers are mindless' shocker![/url]
I hate the stupid yellow cycle jackets...I think they just give a false sense of safety ...
Seriously interacting with impatient road users in their 1.5 tons of armour whilst navigating potholes/crap road surfaces .... Would anyone actually sane do this 🙂
I do kinda get what horas saying.... the whole I've got the same right as a motorist blah blah is fine but the reality when it goes wrong is they get a dent and you end up dead....
My commute to work involves long stretches of the arrow straight A5 which contains a couple of dual carriageways. The alternative is tight twisty narrow back roads. I always thought the main drag was the crazy option but after tackling the back roads on a couple of occasions I quickly changed my mind. I don't wear Hi-viz (skint) but I do have lights.
It's about looking v seeing. Spend a week on a blues and twos course and you'll soon learn that all the reflective, flourescent, bright garish flashing gizmos in the world don't help if people don't see you.
Also, because you've deliberatley set out to make yourself seen by buying and wearing a whole wardrobe of stuff, your whole mindset is flawed.
Instead of riding in high viz and assuming everyone must have seen you, ride in black from head to toe and assume NOBODY has seen you.
Then you can ride in high viz and assume nobody has seen you which is the best of both worlds 🙂