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I keep hearing that Sky make cycling dull and unexciting, yet Thomas has not only (hopefully) won a Tour de France, he did having won two stages, including Alpe D' Huez. Froome didn't just win the Giro, he was behind and won having launched an audacious 90km solo.
What they do is what they need to do to place their man in the lead, they then Defend that position, and any other team given the chance would do the same?
You don't hear a bad word really about Dumoulin, and whilst i think he is a great rider, how many actual stages wins has he had in grand tours and this Tour? He actual in being a very strong TT'er rides in a very similar way as Froome in my eyes.
If they hate Froome because he is a "doper", why not the animosity for Astana?
Whilst Sky have the funds, and why they may not be popular with a lot of fans, and you hear other teams, say they are too controlling, these were probably the same teams that mocked them when they warmed up on turbos before a stage and cooled down on turbos after, who mocked them when they brought their own mattresses etc, how many teams now have copied these strategies?
BUT, i do think sometimes Brailsford should be muzzled, and be sent on the same PR course as Trump. Why he may be correct, he had a pop at the French as a nationality, not just at ASO/UCI.
The boo'ing, abuse etc isn't right, but ever been to a rugby match between England and France at Stade de Francais?
I heard (on the Cyclingtips podcast) that a spectator grabbed Thomas' arm near the end as he was riding. I'm not sure if that's accurate.
If I was French and a cycling fan or not, I would be utterly ashamed at how the spectators are behaving in this tour, in my country. If it was the UK and stages were happening here and our fans were hitting riders and throwing urine....I mean, it would be mortifying.
You can't control them, and they are certainly not all French, but you can punish and discourage them. That doesn't seem to be happening.
Still, the best way to show them is two fingers up on the podium.
I heard (on the Cyclingtips podcast) that a spectator grabbed Thomas’ arm near the end as he was riding. I’m not sure if that’s accurate.
https://twitter.com/kareldezoete/status/1022187261172035594?s=19
what Sky need is a '99' call.
Massed ranks at the front as per usual, some idiot gives them a urine shower, Luke Rowe calls 99 and they as one get laid into him. While the gendarmes look the other way and the cameras switch to one of those pictures of a chateau on a hill.
Beneath contempt some of these so-called 'fans'
Newrobdob, I’m presuming you are joking? So you have no opinion on politicians? Fred Goodwin or other fat cat bankers? I haven’t met any of them but I have an opinion of them.
I’m impressed you keep such a neutral outlook on life when you hear Nigel Farage, Donald Trump et al speaking. Would it not be fair comment to say in my opinion I don’t believe Donald Trump has any morals. In my opinion I believe Donald Trump is only interested in Donald Trump.
When I hear SDB speak, like Trump, I don’t believe a word he says. He could read out a shopping list and it would sound like he was lying.
“Feeling bad for Fromage”?
No not really, but it’s mitigated by:
Performance wise: I think he is actually in the best form he’s been in years. His dedication and application to training and racing is sublime. He has a gift and talent for cycle racing, he rides with a manner of a gentleman and respect to others who he’s riding with/against. He understands the ASO’s ethos, he also understands that he’s there to ride within the confines of a management structure behind him... to ultimately Win.
Personality wise and a bit of history: He’s a precocious So and So. His manner comes across as a stroppy teenager when he doesn’t get what he wants. All this played out in the Wiggins spat a few years ago, and his wife has a lot to answer for in the whole media backlash that’s occurring now. Both he and his wife actively courted the media over those years and Brailsford ended up firefighting some pretty tough questions and intrusion, Wiggins on the other hand answered correctly with honesty and stoicism, yes Cath got involved but what wife wouldn’t support he husband from a wave of accusations and recriminations.
The “fans” of the sport haven’t really taken to him, becuse of the issues above and also the recent AAF accusations lain at his feet, and that’s a personality clash. Wiggins the fans loved, rightly IMO even taking in his foibles. But Fromage comes over as a wet fish, devoid of emotion and lacks a media personality warranted enough for a mic to be shoved under his nose.
And that’s my point, take away his amazing performance and skills and all you are left with is a ghost of a personality in the media’s eyes, and it's them who report the news and have a hand in online persona.
Sky as a Team: Brailsford for all his current placating to the media about “we’ve broken no rules” has a lot to answer for. He has skills for bringing out the right performance measures with a team environment, no question. But his media output and attitude is as a firefighter, he’s not a pro-active Manager in that sense and hence he’s been whipped with a media backlash eager for a headline... and that’s not fair on Brailsford. Without him British Cycling would be equivalent to Italian infighting and lack of teams man ship, as is it’s a very slick well drilled organisation that should be lauded and applauded not vilified.
Will sky be in next years TdF? Yes, will Geraint lead it? I don’t think so, I think Fromage will be back. Will Geraint be back? No I think he’ll target the Giro and Vuelta.
IMO
You don’t hear a bad word really about Dumoulin, and whilst i think he is a great rider, how many actual stages wins has he had in grand tours and this Tour? He actual in being a very strong TT’er rides in a very similar way as Froome in my eyes.
looks like 8 of which 5 were (ITT) and he's on his 6 th gt
The French booed their own Jacques Anquetil when he won too much I dont think they specifically reserve this stuff for Brits or Team Sky.
I keep hearing that Sky make cycling dull and unexciting, yet Thomas has not only (hopefully) won a Tour de France, he did having won two stages, including Alpe D’ Huez. Froome didn’t just win the Giro, he was behind and won having launched an audacious 90km solo.
What they do is what they need to do to place their man in the lead, they then Defend that position, and any other team given the chance would do the same?
You are right. The way Froome won the Giro, even as someone relatively non plussed by Froome, was extraordinary. And Thomas winning on the Alpe in yellow was a first (sort of). I think what they get criticised for is their ability to buy a train of domestiques that chase down and break or set a tempo so fast no other rider can get away. Cash in this context is relative and only really means something if you have more than others so you can set attractive wages that would be team leaders can't resist to ride as a domestique for you.
Froome is not a bad lad. He seems a nice guy when interviewed and in that documentary. His story to the pro ranks is genuinely interesting. He's just a bit vanilla. I'd not be that fussed about having a pint with him. He's not a looker and looks even worse sat on a bike. He's not going to be on many posters in many kids rooms, he just does not have that demi god like persona of a sporting hero. Combine that with Sky as a team being also a bit similar (and lets not forget how popular Murdoch is. It's hard not to see his face when you think of Sky the brand) and you get a team/leader combo that's hard to love. Admire and be hugely impressed by sure, but not loved. I know plenty didn't like him and actually his riding style was dull as but Wiggins was a true personality. Then when they had Cavendish too (and team members like Bernie Eisel) and Sky as a team got humanised. I think if Thomas became the face of team Sky (and Froome left) or whatever they might be called in the future and you allowed him to remain the same lovable bafoon in interview and not make him a PR machine I could see the team's relationship with the public both in the UK and the continent improving significantly.
It's a bit of an oddity. In other sports teams are revered for being the best at what they do, getting the best players to do it, and cleaning up as a result. Barcelona in football for example. Sure, there will always be fans of other teams who 'hate' them but not to the same extent to throw piss at them when they compete.
I think it's still a throwback to when cycling was genuinely an individual sport. Yes, there were teammates and domestiques before, but this idea that building strength in the 'back office' of the team is equally important as the man that leads it if not more so, is only relatively recent.
sorry that should be 10 gt for tom
But cycling and football are very different. Football has obsessive fans of a specific team that will be life long. Cycling fans are fans of cycling first and foremost. Some will have favourites, mostly based on nationality. A few will be freakish obsessives of a particular team but they are very much the minority. I don't think I'm atypical to have watched the tour for 30 years and not really be a true supporter of any given team or rider, just a fan of the 'theatre'.
It could all change on the TT.
I think what they get criticised for is their ability to buy a train of domestiques that chase down and break or set a tempo so fast no other rider can get away.
I hear what you're saying Convert, but Movistar can afford Landa, Quintana and Valverde and have them all in one Tour together, yet decided instead decided to use them as three leaders, maybe if they trained and then competed and chose the one most on form, and made the rest of the team solely work for them, then they'd be pretty tasty? Sky usually have each man having a clear role?
The other thing being seems to be Sky's ability to pick raw talent, i don't think Froome or Thomas originally looked like GT winners back in the days of Barlow World, yet they have moulded them.
Again with Bernal, i am guessing at 21 years of age, he isn't demanding a massive fee, but look what they must have recognised in him, and what they have got out of him this Tour, he has played a massive role, if you placed him in a different team, but still on the same money, i bet they wouldn't of got the same performance from him?
BUT, i do think sometimes Brailsford should be muzzled, and be sent on the same PR course as Trump. Why he may be correct, he had a pop at the French as a nationality, not just at ASO/UCI.
The boo’ing, abuse etc isn’t right, but ever been to a rugby match between England and France at Stade de Francais?
I'll just highlight the obvious similarity in your post... and as above, we didn't get this from the Spanish or Italians.
It’s a bit of an oddity. In other sports teams are revered for being the best at what they do, getting the best players to do it, and cleaning up as a result. Barcelona in football for example. Sure, there will always be fans of other teams who ‘hate’ them but not to the same extent to throw piss at them when they compete.
Seriously? Are you not familiar with the incident when Barca fans threw a pig's head at Luis Figo? Or Cantona waded into the crowd to sort someone out? The reason football has less incidents like this isn't because fans don't express their hatred, it's because they're in a more controlled environment and when stuff like this happens, they get arrested and banned.
It could all change on the TT.
It could, which way are you thinking?
"Buying a train of domestiques"
Couple of years old, I think, but here we go - as published by Cycling Weekly
Tour de France team budgets (estimated)
Team Sky – €35m
Katusha – €32m
BMC – €28m
Tinkoff – €25m
Astana – €20m
Etixx-Quick Step – €18m
Movistar – €15m
Lotto-Soudal – €14m
LottoNL-Jumbo – €14m
Dimension Data – €13.5m
Orica-BikeExchange – €13m
Giant-Alpecin – €12.5m
Trek-Segafredo – €12m
Ag2r La Mondiale – €12m
Cofidis – €11m
IAM Cycling – €10.5m
FDJ – €10m
Cannondale – €10m
Lampre-Merida – €7m
Direct Energie – €6m
Bora-Argon 18 – €4.5m
Fortuneo-Vital Concept – €3.5m
Sky haven't bought a train of superstars, they've bought people with potential and trained them up. Not concentrated on one single leader, developed people so they can get into these 1-2 positions.
Whether it's cycling or football, the french aren't really known for being magnanimous.
There's a lot of issues here:
33 years of TdF frustration watching (often) English speakers win sticks in the craw.
Popularity of Nationalism in France.
Distrust of anyone winning so convincingly (thanks in the main to Lance - who now has the temerity to shout from the sidelines and offer opinion on Froome's case etc)
The B word and general anti-UK sentiment in Europe
ASO and UCI not wanting Froome to race at all and a UCI President that is overtly anti-British. Their less-than-transparent handling of the whole Froome decision....
Most of the fallout has fallen on Froome's shoulders so I do feel sorry for him. Brailsford hasn't been riding alongside the 'public' for 70odd hours or whatever getting dog's abuse and worse. Brailsford's done nothing but fan the flames.
Edukator's view on this would be interesting...
That's undoubtedly a factor, but this is happening several times a day, every day to Sky. And the 'attacks' on Thomas whether verbal or someone trying to grab him yesterday - are purely because of who they work for. Even the support staff have been targeted.
I can't think of an incident where someone's spat at say the groundsman or receptionist of a rival club just because of who they work for?
Lol, are you for real? Yes there will be cheats in this year’s Tour but compared to the 90’s and noughties it’s not even close.
Out of idle curiosity, I looked up the fastest times for climbing Alpe D'Huez. It's instructive that the vast bulk were in the 90s and early 2000s, often by people who weren't renowned as pure climbers. Either the riders are slower these days (unlikely given advances in sports science), or they're cleaner.
Not just cycling:
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2018/07/25/sports/soccer/25reuters-soccer-uefa-marseille.html
Good points about football above from BadlyWiredDog, i don't really follow football, but could you imagine if thousands of football supports were allowed to surround the pitch and stand a good couple of feet on to the pitch and surround the players?
I've been at football game in South America, that had flares and fireworks being set off and small fires in the concrete stands
It never rain but it pours... Poorly Froomey!
https://twitter.com/albertsecall/status/1022240955544596480
Knocked off bike by police after yesterday's stage, as not recognised in "dress-down" descent.
even his 'va te se baiser' sounded half apologetic.
I do love Froome's '**** you' - it's almost like he's saying it with a french twang as his sop to translation. Maybe he is actually a proper brit after all!
Wouldn’t it be ironic if you stopped watching it now because you think people are cheating when it’s clearly the cleanest for decades; presumably you watched it in the 90s when they were doped up to the eyeballs but no-one knew or was that bothered?
Not really as it's not a sudden thing. I was more naive in the 90s, I think most viewers were. Post Festina it's all been hard to believe. There appears to be less doping going on than the 90s-00s but it's still there, it is in all professional sports. Now it'll be less blatant and it's better managed than blood bags in hotels. Micro doses, stripping weight with substances, jiffy bags, whatever goes on - same story, different methods. Where there's brass there's muck and it doesn't matter to me how much cleaner it may be, it's not yet transparently clean either so that doubt lingers. What's weird is that we're supposed to throw aside all the past stuff and believe that Sky can be this dominant, pull off these 'incredible' rides like we very rarely if ever see these days, and there's nothing going on with their Dr, TUEs, lost records etc. Innocent until proven otherwise right? Armstrong used to blather on about never failing a test, Sky haven't failed a test either. You could take that to either conclusion.
A bit OT of Froome and the fans, but part of it alI too. And this does show my lack of trust or some cynicism, I'm not arguing the doped/clean point either way. I don't know. I don't see that as any less rational than having faith that they are clean while understanding the sport's past. That's all it's become in the last 5 years or so, faith, either way. Some have it, some don't, some are pretty open to either belief being the reality.
his wife has a lot to answer for in the whole media backlash that’s occurring now. Both he and his wife actively courted the media over those years and Brailsford ended up firefighting some pretty tough questions and intrusion, Wiggins on the other hand answered correctly with honesty and stoicism, yes Cath got involved but what wife wouldn’t support he husband from a wave of accusations and recriminations.
No contradiction there at all!
I have. Most of the 1500 pages were references cited by the expert reports. The expert report taken into consideration by WADA and documented in their press releases is about 150 pages.
The arguments in the defence have been presented elsewhere. In summary, The Test data over 21 days formed a self consistent dataset, and the variability noted meant that the presumed AAF was within the bounds of the variability for that athlete on that occasion. The rate of false positive for the athlete was estimated from the data, and validated using independent published data from WADA sponsored studies. The rate of a false positive was surprisingly high due to four factors:
dose - the athlete reported taking a higher dose during the last week, but less than the maximum permitted
frequency - dosIng more frequently than once a day leads to drug accumulation in the body
dehydration - urine concentrations increase due to lower urine production, but relatively constant salbutamol excretion.
Multiplicity - testing many times compounds a small probability of one event into a much larger probability of At least one event.
having established that the presumed AAF was within expected variability for the athlete in that event, WADA decided that no formal PK study was necessary, and that given the nature of the event and athlete’s illness, it would be impossible to recreate the conditions of the event for any study.
hope that is sufficient convert.
And I am outraged at the behaviour of the French fans. I don’t recall the same outrage aimed at their nations own athletes after convictions. How did they respond to Bardet missing a drug test?
Didn't know about Bardet's missed test. When was that?
A reminder that 3 AG2R riders were popped from 2012 to 2015 for actually doping (not an AAF):
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/10/lloyd-mondory-ag2r-mondiale-fails-test-epo
But lets forgive and forget eh?
Personality wise and a bit of history: He’s a precocious So and So. His manner comes across as a stroppy teenager when he doesn’t get what he wants. All this played out in the Wiggins spat a few years ago, and his wife has a lot to answer for in the whole media backlash that’s occurring now. Both he and his wife actively courted the media over those years and Brailsford ended up firefighting some pretty tough questions and intrusion, Wiggins on the other hand answered correctly with honesty and stoicism, yes Cath got involved but what wife wouldn’t support he husband from a wave of accusations and recriminations
I think if you polled sky riders past and present they would have Froome as FAR more of a team player than wiggins ever was. although both of them seemed to have matured a lot since 2012, and who wouldn't?
I’ve been at football game in South America, that had flares and fireworks being set off and small fires in the concrete stands
I was at a match in La Paz, and following a dodgy 89th minute penalty for the home side, the ref was escorted from the pitch by a full Roman guard of riot police, using their shields to protect him as the rocks came raining down from the terraces.
Agree, but memories are hard to forget.
Hence the backlash that he and sky face now.
Dont think the current issues have anything to do with budgets though.
The boo’ing, abuse etc isn’t right, but ever been to a rugby match between England and France at Stade de Francais?
We went this year. Had a great time. The booing is part of the theatre. I didn’t see anyone try and assault the kicker though. We had a great time with the French fans before and after the game. We will be going back in two years time.
apologies it was not Bardet, thought his name popped up on dopeology when I was looking yesterday. His team were the first to suspend themselves from a World Tour event
https://www.dopeology.org/incidents/AG2R-self-suspension/
I think I'd go mental just having fans screaming in my ear for an hour whilst struggling up a climb, let alone the back slapping and flags draped in front causing me to be constantly on edge - and that's what the popular riders put up with! It's one thing getting boo'd in a stadium, it's a fair bit more intimidating when abuse and threats are being shouted in your ear and you don't know if the liquid thrown at you is water or piss.
It is still the vast minority though - just a shame as well it carries onto the podium celebrations, that just demonstrates a complete lack of class rather than being overly partisan. And for the staff to get threatened/abused to is just beyond, I wonder if the Sky road-side spares/feeders get danger money :p
I wonder if the Sky road-side spares/feeders get danger money :p
im sure the 'fans' aren't that brave when the target is standing there and can knock them on their fat ass
I'd like to see a Sky 1-2 on the podium with GT winning and then Sky announcing that they won't compete the TDF next year due to intimidation. Nobody should have to put up with thst kind of abuse.
It would be interesting to know who in France is driving the hatred for Froome; perhaps one of the dailies or an influential website?
its an escalation on last year, Bernard Hinault kicked it all off just before the start this year
Bernard "dodged a drugs test" Hinault?
Surely not...
Froome is clearly an exceptional athlete, backed by a great team. I felt sorry for him last night because that must have been when it finally hit home that he didn't have this one in him. Until that stage, I'm sure he still believed in himself so it must have been shattering to discover that the legs weren't there when he needed them.
Whoever leaked his AAF needs to be shot. Outrageous breach of confidence.
That said, it has been a great season of riding this year and the uncertainty over the TDF GC only adds to that. I'm really pleased to see G in with a good shot at yellow. Always liked him as a rider and personality - briefly met him at Revolution in Glasgow and seemed a really down to earth nice guy..
Duplicate post
Whoever leaked his AAF needs to be shot. Outrageous breach of confidence.
My theory is that Brailsford et al know exactly who leaked the data, hence the rather, ahem, robust press interview and comments about Lapartient.
And, yeah, the slappy spectators and boo boys are just cowards - nothing more. No way would they stand in front of a rider and do it directly to his face.
Armstrong used to blather on about never failing a test
Yes, but that was a very carefully considered answer to a direct question to LaLa about doping. He never "actually" said he didn't dope ever - all his answers were lawyer's answers where he could point and say "I never said xxxx (insert phrase of choice)"
So if Froome is cooked, and G wins the tour, who will sky put forward for team leader in Vuelta?