[Closed] Fasted rides

me or hora..??

my bikes 20 years old and still running 8 speed xtr from 96

Weren't you the one who wouldn't go 1x10 with a 42T because it was too steep round your way? Or was it the other one?

Not me. I run a 1x9 30T for all my riding- Peaks, Lakes etc.

Every sunday Im up at 5 either doing an hour (hi intensity - intervals) on the turbo or out for 3-4 hour ride (70 miles plus hilly ride - good for KOMs with few cars about!), i dont eat or drink anything beforehand (otherwise Id wake the kids up!), drink I use High 5 zero (no carbs) and usually have a cereal bar (9 bar) or two in my back pocket, but 9 times out of ten Itll still bethere when I get back... Never hit the wall or had problems.

If you're doing 70 mile hilly rides in 3 hours, on absolutely zero food you're not normal. Traffic free roads or not. I assume you win everything you touch with that sort of performance? Certainly not a strategy I'd advocate for most people.

If I tried ^ you'd come across my skeleton slumped at the side of the road.

Agree with njee20.

Even on an ok breakfast (bagel with cream cheese, peanut butter, one apple, cup of tea), mid-ride snack (2 x Jaffa cakes), cake stop and 2 x 610ml bottles of energy drink and plenty of water I am still on the brink of bonking around kilometer 115!

If you can ride 80 miles on an empty stomach then you're most probably the exception, not the norm.

i just assumed that what I ate the night before was what was fuelling me. Normally on a saturday Ill have a (home made) curry or this weekend it was chicken sweet potatoe sweet peppers and chickpea wraps (covered in reggae reggae sauce) and coconut rice, which is also what I normally have the night before a race.

I guess Ive just got used to not eating on rides, if i was to eat anything before the local chaingang id end up throwing it back up.

Njee I wish, although Im quick there are a lot quicker riders in vets locally, although I am quite handy on a cx bike!

BD, where do you get your chickpea wraps?

Njee I wish, although Im quick there are a lot quicker riders in vets locally, although I am quite handy on a cx bike!

Do you race without eating as well? I really struggle to believe you can do 'fasted' 3 hour rides at 23mph and not win vets XC races. Seems very odd! You're right, you'll still have a bit of fuel in the tank from the night before, but only a bit 😕

I ve been using green tea (made the night before)as early morning boost as it helps speed up the metabolism. There where some articles floating around at some point to back this up. Then doing an easy 25 mile ride once a week. Have droppped from 81kg to 74kg. Also cut out crap food and beer.

I can usually do top ten in vets for something like mud sweat & gears, but when youre racing against people who are putting their sponsors down as Cannondale UK they seem to be in a different league.

Before a race Ill have a scrambled eggs mushroom and chorizo for breakfast (usually about 7am) drink throughout the morning, about 90 mins before the race Ill have a small portion of porridge with coconut and banana in (cold obviously) and then about 45 minutes ill have a banana. I take gels with me but cant remember using one this year. For CX no porridge just a banana.

Dont forget my fasted sunday rides are only so I can go out for long (or high intensity - think sufferefest) rides and be back indoors early. I dont eat anything or make coffee as Ill wake my littluns up. Until I saw this thread Id really never given it much thought and thinking about it when I go out for evening rides I dont eat anything much after 1pm (maybe a banana) so not much difference in time (6 hours) between that and a sunday morning.

On a side note something Ive noticed seems to have helped with high intensity work loads lately, I eat beef (or pork) jerky the day before. No idea why but seems to have a positive effect (Big T are great with the different flavours too)

clobber - I make them myself - pack of chicken breasts, cut small, can of chickpeas (soft ones), Large red sweet pepper sliced, I medium to large sized sweet potato cut into 1cm cubes.

Cook the sweet potato for literally 2-3 minutes or itll go mushy, cook the chicken until cooked, obviously drain the fat/water etc.. add the sweet potato, (drained) chickpeas and half jar reggae reggae sauce, cook for about 5 minutes and then add the peppers, mix it all up. Spoon into small wraps (the larger ones are too thin - or you cna make them the kids love helping but it is a faff) - You can obviously eat them now but I then roll them up, in a baking tray, bit of grated cheese and stick thme in the oven for 10 minutes.

Usually out of 8 theyll be two left over which go in the freezer for lunch during the week.

Oh and coconut rice - plain basmati, 1/4 cube of coconut (the hard packeted one blue dragon or whatever it is from sainsburys) and cook normally with water - or use creamed coconut.

Im quite hungry now!

Yep, Ant White is very quick!

Clearly you're just very good at sustaining yourself on virtually no fuel.

Dont forget my fasted sunday rides are only so I can go out for long (or high intensity - think sufferefest) rides and be back indoors early.

But if you're doing 20+ mph I don't think many folk would call that low intensity 😉

Clearly works for you, it's interesting.

tbh I wish I knew more about how the body works and fuels itself, annoyingly I start to get half decent at xc at this age, and in my 20s I just used to poodle around in the top half ofthe middle of the pack!

Like you say it works for me but that may just be the result of the 6 years of early sunday mornings.

Bigdawg- What an inspiration! Very impressive stuff. Seems like you found some real drive and focus from somewhere and have put it to good use. I'd love to have half of your motivation.

As to the OP, I can only speak from personal experience and as a bit of a (albeit strong) chubber, I never seem to have a problem riding on an empty stomach. My diet isn't great overall- it's quite heavily carb based but it does seem to mean I always have fuel when I need it. I can do four hour xc rides (60 miles @14.5mph on Salisbury Plain) on a bottle of water and a mars bar.
I tried taking cereal bars, fruit or sarnies with me and setting up my Garmin to remind me to eat (never feel hungry) and it was a waste of time.

I refuse to eat gels regardless of the science behind them as all the ones I've tried are disgusting and I think many of us lesser mortals would be falling for a marketing trick than getting any real benefit out of it.

As for the whole cafine thing- I find it interesting that so many otherwise healthy guys have no problem with it. I literally cannot sleep if I so much as sniff a cup of coffee and even a rare cup of tea is pushing the boat out.

All interesting stuff and i'm sure I would change my tune if I got somewhere in a zone where incremental gains were the only ones left but at the moment, theres the small matter of 1st12lb to get rid of before I start worrying too much about whether i've microdosed enough coffee before a ride 😀

there's always Pro-Plus, or the supermarket equivalent for caffeine delivery.
FWIW I did this for several months, only with a 30 minute commute afterwards and didn't eat anything until lunchtime. lost weight and my body seems to be less inclined to put it back on now.
for me, the benefits were also psychological in that I now know I don't NEED to eat just because I feel hungry.

I dunno if this is the right place for this observation - because I'm not trying to be antagonistic - but I've managed to get fitter and lose weight by [i]eating more[/i] during my rides.

Having enough food and gels means I can keep going longer and harder (ooer), rather than limp home after bonking. It's been a bit of a revelation tbh.

I nearly always do my road rides first thing in the morning - quick coffee when I wake up and I'm good to go. I feel like I ride much better like this, if I go for a ride in the afternoon or after breakfast I feel pretty sluggish and can't be bothered to push as hard. I hate exercising on a full stomach, makes me want to hurl.

BD, I misunderstood, I thought you made the tortilla wraps from chickpea flour...

Nice recipe though

Would like an espresso machine but I've got a induction hob-cooker.

Put the moka pot in a suitable saucepan

Weren't you the one who wouldn't go 1x10 with a 42T because it was too steep round your way? Or was it the other one?

Might have been me. I sold my OneUp cos I spun out too much with the chainring required to get up 2500ft per 13 miles like most rides around here!

Last year I did the 5:2 diet AND 3 hard mtb rides per week. Lost 25lbs and that's with building muscle mass as well. Got about 8 to 10 lb more to lose and then we'll see what things look like. Still got a bit of a tum and moobs.

6ft 3, currently weigh 190lbs aged 49. At 25 I was 12 stone (168lbs) and probably had single digit bodyfat.

Anyone else come across 'Bulletproof Coffee' ?

hora - Member
Some say coffee also speeds up the fat scorching process and of course gives more energy to ride harder to burn more cals.
If you don't have an espresso machine just buy dowe Egbert's freeze dried espresso.

Would like an espresso machine but I've got a induction hob-cooker.

What were your rides/frequence/timescale to do ^?

Pick up a Tassimo for £40, and buy the right discs and you can get a cracking espresso, made within 30 seconds. My favs are Mastro Lorenzo Crema Intenso, and Jacobs Espresso... Easily on par with my old traditional bean grind espresso maker

[URL= http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/capoz77/gine_zps6e29b51e.jp g" target="_blank">http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/capoz77/gine_zps6e29b51e.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

One/two of these pre ride = no cals = fast maintained = IGF-1 hormone production suppressed (longevity/disease protection) = fat stores used for energy on ride.

I didn't really change my ride frequency, just 2-3 times a week, didn't change my diet either it i'm honest. I simply miss breakfast everyday, black coffee on waking and water all morning (sometimes green tea too) break my fast at 1pm with lunch, eat usually throughout the day, and eat my last meal at 9pm.

From 9pm that eve till 1pm the next afternoon I fast = 16 hour fast
Do all my eating in the 8 hour feed window.

Add that to my usual exercise and the weight/bodyfat/cholestorol/blood psi all dropped. 😀 An easy stone lost within 6 months.

Fantastic. Turn a stw topic into another love of mine. Coffee 8)

Anyone else come across 'Bulletproof Coffee' ?

Yep, seems to be the next big thing. It is, perhaps predictably a potentially sound theory taken to a ridiculous degree in order to make you buy his product in large quantities. There are plenty of sites debunking but this is pretty succinct:

[url= http://authoritynutrition.com/3-reasons-why-bulletproof-coffee-is-a-bad-idea/ ]http://authoritynutrition.com/3-reasons-why-bulletproof-coffee-is-a-bad-idea/[/url]

Coffee related: An Aeropress will make a nice strong shot of coffee (not quite espresso strength but similar to Moka pot) with very little faff. Better tasting too IMO.

[i]Do you race without eating as well? I really struggle to believe you can do 'fasted' 3 hour rides at 23mph and not win vets XC races. Seems very odd! You're right, you'll still have a bit of fuel in the tank from the night before, but only a bit[/i]
I may not have understood that statement as intended, so keep that in mind. However, if BD rides without breakfast, on the meal he had, the preceeding evening. Then most of that evening's meal will have been stored. Glycogen, first, body fat, second, yadda, yadda. Sleeping doesn't burn many calories, so most of dinner is processed and ready for use. It won't evaporate over night (if only 😉 ).

[i]Clearly you're just very good at sustaining yourself on virtually no fuel.[/i]
[i] But if you're doing 20+ mph I don't think many folk would call that low intensity [/i]
Yes, I'm slightly confused and concerned. The lower, the exercise intensity, the more fat is used (according to what I've read). Conversely, the higher the exercise intensity, then more carbohydrate is required. Therefore, engaging in high intensity exercise, [b]fasted[/b], is more likely to induce gluconeogenesis. I'd not characterize this as good practice, imo.

[i] Like you say it works for me but that may just be the result of the 6 years of early sunday mornings.[/i]
Perhaps, and there is evidence to substantiate the claim that the body can become better/more efficient at burning fat to sustain exercise. Triglycerides stored between muscle fibres (inter muscular triglycerides) also come into play. But is there room for improvement ? I think so, even if it's just to ensure you're not slipping into converting muscle to carbs to sustain high intensity exercise in a fasted state.
If your glycogen is topped up, then riding for up to 90 mins on water, should be ok. But between 90 mins and 4 hours, liquid carbs might be a good idea.
Remember, fat burns in a carbohydrate fire. Anything over 4 hours and I'd suggest solid food.
It's just what I've read.

I'm a bit confused by all this fasted riding. As far as I know the body carries, as stated above, a reserve of glycogen which is the fuel used first of all. Now I have heard it can take up to 3 days to get rid of this and for the body to start efficiently using fat as the fuel, so how can an early morning ride, following a day of normal eating, have anymore impact than riding in the evening? Also as soon as you eat anything, especially carbs, the body restores it's glycogen levels and then stops using fat as fuel.

The other thing I heard was that your glycogen can weigh up to 6lbs which accounts for people believing they are losing fat weight. Calories in versus calories out I think is the only way to lose weight, this is coming from someone who has just lost 25lbs by eating 600cals a day. Getting really really fed up of it now and another half stone to go.

http://www.leangains.com/2010/05/fasted-training-boosts-endurance-and.html?m=1

As far as I know the body carries, as stated above, a reserve of glycogen which is the fuel used first of all. Now I have heard it can take up to 3 days to get rid of this and for the body to start efficiently using fat as the fuel, so how can an early morning ride, following a day of normal eating, have anymore impact than riding in the evening?

Therefore, engaging in high intensity exercise, fasted, is more likely to induce gluconeogenesis.

That doesn't apply to us.

I'm doing nothing of the sort or recommending it though. Running an engine hard/fast and on zero fuel aint good. Thats common sense. Its basically thrashing your body.

I'm on about a steady cadence - almost like a base-fitness ride. On my fasted ride I only use half a bottle of water throughout.

clobber you can make them with chickpea or coconut flour - they are very easy to make but its a time consuming job when it comes to rolling out 20 wraps to 1-2mm thickness, which is essential.

heres the recipe obviousyl just swap the SW flour for whatever you want to use (same for naan bread too)

http://kitchenmason.com/2013/03/17/tortilla-wraps/

[i] That doesn't apply to us.[/i]
Yes, except BD, who, if I've understood his posts, correctly. Claims to be riding quite hard, while fasted.

While the leangains article discusses the apparent merits of fasted exercise as a stressor employed to get the body to adapt. It also states that risking gluconeogenesis, may not be desirable.

However, if BD is happy with his performance and everything. I say carry on.
🙂

Thanks BD!

solo - you seem to have studied this in great depth - you're someone I could sit down with over a (home made) curry and discuss this in depth.

Something Ive kept out of this is (as its not what the thread is about) that compared to a lot of people I have a relatively low carb diet - I only eat carbs that I need, in general most people eat far too many carbs, and hence end up carrying excess weight. My carbs come from things like sweet potatoes, chickpeas, brown rice, fruit, usually (other than fruit) low GI based foods.

Something else I realised last night - on my 'cheat' day (saturday) I do eat a huge bowl of muesli with bananas yoghurt honey and coconut for breakfast. Now the cheat day is saturday - so effectively on a saturday I eat a big carb based breakfast, wraps with refried beans peppers and cheese midday and then something like the wraps for dinner - what Im saying is I eat more food the day before my high intensity days than any day during the week, so my sundays are probably my least fasted days in terms of calories consumed in the 24 hours beforehand (I usually ride to work and back every day).

Regarding carbs in drinks I originally stopped using them as they played havoc with my stomach, esp mid race, so swapped to Hi5 zero. That goes part of the way to rehydration which I personally think is more important (although Im sure there are tests to tell me otherwise) and to date havent had a problem. Something else I noticed with carby drinks is that although you get the initial 'shot' of energy when it dropped off power output was less than before i'd drunk it. This way I dont get the spikes of energy and usually end up taking longer stints on the front towards the end of a ride

[i]Something Ive kept out of this is [/i]
Ah so, the bigger picture is revealed 🙂

[i]other than fruit[/i]
Fruit can be ok and its not just about the fructose/sugar content. Fruit can be useful for electrolyte replenishment, post ride:
Bananas
Strawberrys
Black berrys

Seeing as you have little if any BF to lose, fruit soon after a hard ride would possibly be a good idea. Although you're doing ok, anyway.

[i]what Im saying is I eat more food the day before my high intensity days than any day during the week, so my sundays are probably my least fasted days in terms of calories consumed in the 24 hours beforehand [/i]
EDIT:
[Fasting, being fasted, isn't wrt the amount of cals previously consumed. But rather that there's no undigested food in your system. All food has been previously processed and blood insulin levels are low so as to allow the use of BF.]
So long as you've had a good nights sleep, your body will have digested whatever you've consumed the day before and sorted it all out, Glycogen stores will be topped up. Which in your case sounds as if you're body is doing an above average job, partly because of your fasted rides (see the leangains article above). And excess Cals which can't be stored as glycogen will become BF. Which again, you seem to have no issue burning also, during your rides.
My only concern would be 4 hours high intensity exercise, on water. High intensity requires more carbs and sees a drop in the amount of fat used for fuel. Running on water and depleting glycogen way before your 4 hours is up. I'd worry you might be dipping into converting protein into carbs. Of course, you could be rebuilding your muscle to offset this. But consider for the 4 hour fast ride, liquid carbs, combined with your fat stores, both carbs and fat should see you throuhg, without risking gluconeogenesis. imo.

[i]Regarding carbs in drinks I originally stopped using them as they played havoc with my stomach[/i]
I've had this. Some folk advise that its persistence as you teach your body to cope. Others just find a product they get along with. I've been experimenting with coconut water and initial results were, positively, surprizing to me.

[i]This way I dont get the spikes of energy and usually end up taking longer stints on the front towards the end of a ride [/i]
Sounds ok if it works for you, carry on.
🙂

Send my an e-mail, if you like.

P.S. I've got to log out now.

Solo cheers - Ive got a fridge full of coconut milk as its on offer at sainsburys, quite high in sat fat but may give that a try next time out.

Im literally stepping on a train to paris for a long weekend so will catch up with this thread when Im back. Quite interesting to hear other points of view.

[coffee break reply]
BD. Not coconut milk, but coconut water. It has a moderate amount of carbs in it. I don't like the taste, so mix it with lemon juice (not concentrate) and a pinch of coffee 😉

But as above, you seem to be riding far and quick as you are. Good stuff !
[/coffee break reply]

Don't know about the science of it, but I do know what works for me.

When I was a lad in the 50s, I was told the best way to lose weight without losing tone (ie improve climbing ability), was to get up early, cup of coffee, and then ride a loop that takes you to the edge of bonk. (Apparently it's important not to bonk.) On return, have a breakfast of 2 poached eggs and toast.

I have found it works nicely, weight just drops off. Any time I start feeling a bit sluggish I do it, and it definitely makes me feel good. (I generally don't worry about what my actual weight measurement is, but it definitely averages down using this process over a couple of months.)

It seems a simple process, caffeine to kickstart the day, a medium effort ride to get your body working, and protein after the ride to keep the muscles replenished, while a raised metabolism processes your body fat for fuel for the rest of the day.

How it actually works is irrelevant, simply because it does work.

No doubt there are more scientific and carefully planned systems for professional athletes with nothing else to do with their day, but this is something that anyone can do without worrying about esoteric supplements or careful measuring of food etc.

bigdawg - Member
solo - you seem to have studied this in great depth - you're someone I could sit down with over a (home made) curry and discuss this in depth.

Something Ive kept out of this is (as its not what the thread is about) that compared to a lot of people I have a relatively low carb diet - I only eat carbs that I need, in general most people eat far too many carbs, and hence end up carrying excess weight. My carbs come from things like sweet potatoes, chickpeas, brown rice, fruit, usually (other than fruit) low GI based foods.

Something else I realised last night - on my 'cheat' day (saturday) I do eat a huge bowl of muesli with bananas yoghurt honey and coconut for breakfast. Now the cheat day is saturday - so effectively on a saturday I eat a big carb based breakfast, wraps with refried beans peppers and cheese midday and then something like the wraps for dinner - what Im saying is I eat more food the day before my high intensity days than any day during the week, so my sundays are probably my least fasted days in terms of calories consumed in the 24 hours beforehand (I usually ride to work and back every day).

Regarding carbs in drinks I originally stopped using them as they played havoc with my stomach, esp mid race, so swapped to Hi5 zero. That goes part of the way to rehydration which I personally think is more important (although Im sure there are tests to tell me otherwise) and to date havent had a problem. Something else I noticed with carby drinks is that although you get the initial 'shot' of energy when it dropped off power output was less than before i'd drunk it. This way I dont get the spikes of energy and usually end up taking longer stints on the front towards the end of a ride

POSTED 9 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

Whether you eat a higher percentage of carb/fat/protein etc doesn't it all simply boil down to when your head hits the pillow/ in calorific excess = store as fat/ in calorific deficit = dig into fat stores?

Ok just completed my second fasted ride (started this week) this morning. I'm posting the pic below from a couple of weeks ago mostly to kick-start myself/keep me going on this. End of next week I'm hoping to see an improvement. It says Athletic centre on the receipt. I actually go there to sit in the Jacuzzi/sauna and have nothing to do with the gym-side 😀

[img] [/img]

Hora shame those scales don't do a bodyfat% measurement to watch the fat levels go down. BMI isn't a great indicator as bodybuilders packed in muscle have high BMI's.

Did you cut the milk and sugar from the pre ride coffee to keep it a true fast?

I didn't have a coffee before the first ride.

I did this morning- black, no sugar. I set off like a train but then sapped/felt knackered on the second half.

shame those scales don't do a bodyfat% measurement

To come back to this...

johnj2000 - Member
I'm a bit confused by all this fasted riding. As far as I know the body carries, as stated above, a reserve of glycogen which is the fuel used first of all. Now I have heard it can take up to 3 days to get rid of this

[b] My research has indicated that the ideal state of fat burning is reached after 12-18 hours of fasting.
[/b] - last meal at 9pm, fasted ride at 9am? ideal fat scorching time. You could even have the last meal earlier to enable the 12 hour window without food for exercise.

"Intermittent fasting and stubborn fat loss

How can intermittent fasting then selectively target stubborn body fat more effectively than other diets? Well, to target stubborn body fat we need to activate b2-receptors while deactivating a2-receptors. Intermittent fasting achieves this by the following mechanisms.

1. Fasting increases catecholamine levels.

2. Fasting increases abdominal subcutaneous blood flow, which means that catecholamines will have an easier time reaching those hard-to-get areas.

3. The low insulin level reached during the fast inhibits a2-receptors. A greater time spent in the low insulin state equals a greater time spent in a state where fat can be mobilized from stubborn areas. Now you're probably thinking "why not just go on a low carb diet" to keep insulin low, but keep in mind that triglycerides inhibit HSL in a similar manner as insulin.

4. My research has indicated that the ideal state of fat burning is reached after 12-18 hours of fasting. Coupled with high levels of catecholamines, increased blood flow to stubborn regions, and low insulin for a2-receptor inhibition, this time interval is the "golden age" of stubborn fat mobilization.

http://www.leangains.com/2010/06/intermittent-fasting-and-stubborn-body.htm l"

and the final bit of info in regards to fat burning and missing breakfast...

"
"We see increases in three of the four hormones driving lipolysis, indicating a propensity towards fat burning. Somewhere around 12-18 hours, lipolysis becomes a major energy pathway, producing energy from body fat. "

Yes. In fact, after an overnight fast, 2/3 of the energy burnt are free fatty acids. Eat breakfast and you'll be putting the brakes on this process, of course."

Hora. You said you are 6'2" !
😡