Quick q - I know some on here have arranged and marshalled events.
We piggybacked a traffic free ascent of Ditchling Beacon yday during L2B. Wanted to come back down the bridle way from the top that runs parallel to the road, but does not provide access back on to the road. However, marshall wouldn't let us do that, said we would use that to access the road (which is not possible) and bridleway closed (despite walkers w dogs using it no probs). On discussion that we just wanted to walk down he got quite unpleasant and said he knew we wouldn't ride down cos he wouldn't let us get past to the bridleway.
So - no mention anywhere that the bridlepaths are closed (in fact National Trust says all bridleways on around the beacon remain open - can L2B close that off?
In terms of marshall saying that he wouldn't allow me to walk down the bridleway what are my rights and what are his rights with respect to physically stopping me - as that was very clearly implied in his manner.
It was quiet on the beacon as it was early doors, but the guy just seemed to be overly aggressive to cyclists trying to do something except continue straight on.
Cheers for any thoughts.
IME it depends greatly on where the marshal actually comes from. If they're contracted people (like G4S or similar) brought in from God knows where, they'll simply have been told by some supervisor "don't let anyone past" and that's what they'll do, regardless of common sense or practicalities.
If they're a local volunteer, they'll probably have some idea of what is and isn't possible / realistic / safe and be able to exercise a bit of discretion.
I've seen it countless times during big cycling events (Tour of Britain etc) where some clueless drone simply stands there going "no, no, no you can't do that" in spite of the road being completely clear, the pavement getting dangerously crowded because people aren't being allowed to cross the road etc.
They're almost not allowed to think for themselves.
And just to say - we have descended that bridlepath on a few occasions previously when the beacon has been closed with no issues
edit: and responding to crazy-legs - yes it was a G4S or similar......... they were also shouting at all and sundry in Ditchling village making it less that a lovely experience
From my event organising days I recall that you can't close a bridleway.
Dunno so much, I'm fairly certain you can for specific reasons and with the agreement & permission of the local council ROW team. Notices posted at each end in advance,etc. They closed one near Ironbridge a few years ago for half a day when the power station cooling towers were brought down. Just because some gobby marshall says so, isn't necessarily enough in itself. If the L2B event was using it, it wasn't closed as such (edit - sorry, misread that bit, they weren't using it)
Local Authorities can close footpaths and bridleways using a TTRO.
edit: and responding to crazy-legs - yes it was a G4S or similar......... they were also shouting at all and sundry in Ditchling village making it less that a lovely experience
That would explain it then. They will have been bussed in from somewhere, given a hi vis and some basic provisions and told "stand here don't let anyone past" and they'll just do that.
No thought, no apology and no clue.
An email to L2B organisers would be your best approach, explain to them how poor the marshalling was.
I very much doubt a marshall has the powers to physically stop you using a bridleway. Even if it had been legitimately closed by the council, he still wouldn't be allowed to manhandle you to prevent access. All he could legally do I suspect (IANAL) is try verbally to stop you and inform the event organisers if you refused. In this case though it sounds like he was trying to prevent you using a ROW with no real legal power to do so.
I tend to cut volunteer marshals a little bit of slack. They are giving up their time freely, events can't happen without them, they don't always get looked after very well or get the most comprehensive briefing on their responsibilities and "powers". Although it does sound as if he was officious and inflexible, he was probably just trying to do what he thought was his job as best he could and getting confused about his very limited "powers" in the process.
I'd have tried to reason with him, but insisted that I was legally allowed to use a ROW and suggested he inform the organisers and/or police if he was unhappy with that.
edit: and responding to crazy-legs - yes it was a G4S or similar.........
Ah... missed that. Puts a different spin on it! Whilst you probably still have every right to use it, it's probably not worth getting into an altercation with them over it. Just complain as @crazy-legs says.
So, what might happen if you were determined to carry on? What can the "marshal" actually do?
I suppose they can act all threatening and maybe stand in the way. But surely they would be crossing the line if they touched you or your property?
Partly interested as I've had a couple of occasions where members of the public have attempted to block my way when riding completely legal bridleways... and maybe a footpath here or there. This isn't a common event, but has occurred a handful of times during the last 30+ years of riding the Peak's finest. I'm far from being a hard-case, but they have backed down when I've raised my aggression to match theirs. This then ruins my ride as I hate confrontation!
So, what might happen if you were determined to carry on? What can the "marshal" actually do?
I suppose they can act all threatening and maybe stand in the way. But surely they would be crossing the line if they touched you or your property?
Partly interested as I've had a couple of occasions where members of the public have attempted to block my way when riding completely legal bridleways... and maybe a footpath here or there. This isn't a common event, but has occurred a handful of times during the last 30+ years of riding the Peak's finest. I'm far from being a hard-case, but they have backed down when I've raised my aggression to match theirs. This then ruins my ride as I hate confrontation!
Edit... partially answered by Blokeuptheroad 🙂
I've been the marshall tasked with keeping members of the public out of an event area which had been properly closed with a TTRO. You'd be surprised (1) how many people are either totally blind to barriers, tapes, signs etc and just try to wander on anyway AND (2) how some people react when politely told the route they wanted is closed - and in my case clear and simple instructions how to get where they want to be. You might be the 10th person who's tried to tell him they know better than him today. You might be the person who "knows their rights" but hasn't seen the risk assessment that justified the closure. Closures don't need to be 100% - they can be in one direction or to certain types of traffic.
Of course its possible they don't have the required permissions, or even that the marshall has got a bit carried away but if someone has gone to the effort of either finding a volunteer or paying a minimum wage marshall to stand there all day there is probably some reason for it. They might not actually have an official closure but a dynamic risk assessment on the day has spotted a problem - sometimes after an accident or near miss.
He probably should have let you push your bike if the public were being allowed to walk through but if you've already been an ass I can see why he would be reluctant. In reality he will likely have no legal authority to physically prevent you, but I've twice been physically threatened by pedestrians when they were going to have to walk ~100m more than usual, and I assure you I was Mr Polite and Professional at all times, the public are belligerent idiots if anything changes their routine. Still if you really want to deal with the angry types you need to put them in cars - when they've ignored the "event ahead, expect delays, for alternative route follow diversion" signs (which had been out for 2 weeks warning ahead of the day)!
I've been the marshall tasked with keeping members of the public out of an event area which had been properly closed with a TTRO
I assume you had the proper paperwork to wave at people though?
They might not actually have an official closure but a dynamic risk assessment on the day has spotted a problem - sometimes after an accident or near miss.
Which doesnt make it valid for the organisers to decide to block use but instead for the organisers to ensure the mixed use is safe.
No i was standing in the pissing rain and didn't have any paperwork. I happen to know that there was a TTRO and the exact scope of it, because I had been involved with the discussions to get it in place. Ordinarily a marshall probably doesn't even know what a TTRO is never mind what it says.I've been the marshall tasked with keeping members of the public out of an event area which had been properly closed with a TTRO
I assume you had the proper paperwork to wave at people though?
They might not actually have an official closure but a dynamic risk assessment on the day has spotted a problem - sometimes after an accident or near miss.
Which doesnt make it valid for the organisers to decide to block use but instead for the organisers to ensure the mixed use is safe.
Correct, but ignoring someone who is there to try and keep you and others safe is a bit like ignoring someone stopping you are the top of a trail because there's someone spread across the path below waiting for the MRT to come and extract them, or the bystander who is stopping traffic taking an exit off a roundabout because there's a lorry stuck under a bridge up ahead. Most of the time they aren't doing it to be an arse, they are actually trying to make things a little bit better for as many people as possible and a friendly and polite chat will find often find a solution.
The OP was happy to piggy back on the traffic free route on the way up, to then decide he'd able to opt out of the organisers arrangements when he wants to seems a bit naive.
Schroedinger's closure? Simultaneously open and closed.
playing the internet devil's advocate here...
the pragmatist in me might have accepted that i had happily piggybacked a comprehensively marshalled event and enjoyed a traffic free ascent of the Beacon (did a marshal allow you to do this even though you weren't part of the L2B?), cut the marshal some slack as they were at the start of a very long and hot day having to deal with thousands of people swarming over the Beacon, and chosen a different bridleway down the hill, like the one just 200 metres to the east.
and having been an event marshal a few times, everything what Poly said
i was also at the top of the Beacon early doors yesterday but just crossing over the road, stopped to watch the trickle of fast riders smash it over the top making sure they beat all the people that get on a bike once a year for the L2B, and a marshal was very keen that i moved on as soon as possible which i thought was a little officious considering how quiet it was. but while stood there i saw two near miss incidents and this was when the road was mostly empty and before the endless swarm of sunburnt tired ineptitude had arrived so i can see why draconian crowd management might be required from the get go. i had a brief chat with the guy, he'd been there since 3am and would be there till after 7pm, i wished him good luck and hoped no one died (as is traditional) and carried on my way...
i had a brief chat with the guy, he'd been there since 3am and would be there till after 7pm,
Yeah, I can absolutely see both sides, they have a pretty shit job to do for a very long period of time. Having worked on all sides of cycling events, there are some excellent marshals capable of thinking on their feet, using a bit of initiative and discretion and managing things on their own accord. The more senior Traffic Control Marshals usually fall into that category.
The G4S type standing at a road crossing... Usually less so.
And yes, as a general rule, the public are both clueless and extremely resistant to non-uniformed authority. I remember doing a role as a British Cycling Accredited Marshal on a road race once, getting a whole load of grief off a motorist and her attitude changed dramatically when a police moto came around the corner and the officer had a little word with her.
She still didn't apologise to me though.
Tangentially related but I was surprised to see that the Ditchling Road and Coldean Lane were still closed after 8pm last night - that's a long day of pedalling to get to Brighton from London!
Also having been a marshal / volunteer and agree it's not always easy or a yes / no, right / wrong as G$S maybe play it.... I've been given a card with a range of phone numbers from race director through medic team to sweeper / broom wagon as a just in case.
Did this chap in question have such a card with a number you can call for clarification.. ?
You can close anything with the right paperwork and notice. I have run perfectly legal motorcycle events up footpaths and bridleways. The land owner has to say yes to the use of the land and the RoW department has to say yes to the use of the RoW. If that is done properly then all is good. Of course I made damn sure that any marshals had a copy of the paperwork and spare signs to replace those vandalised.
On the other hand if some commercial organisation is trying to stop my legitimate use without the correct authorisation I will be bloody minded enough to ignore them.
TTROs are generally a lot more hassle to get, but it's doable- tbf it's not generally something you do without good reason, because it's a hassle.
Outside of biking I marshall a bunch of town events through the year where I live and the road closures are always a total shitshow. We shut the entire highstreet for about 3 hours, with tons of warning, and diversions in place and every year at least one person will drive straight through. Every marshall gets painstakingly briefed "never stand in front of a car" because of that one time someone almost ran one of our little old ladies over. It's just gobsmacking tbh.
Last year i got "you can't stop me" and it was bloody amazing because the parade was already coming through and I got to go like Thor- point to the pipe band of the Royal Highland Fusiliers and go "No, but they can"
Actual marshalling in bike races etc is generally done by the willing, not necessarily by the competent. And with that in mind, quite often closures as opposed to danger points are where you find the worst marshalls, while the most skilled and sensible and unflappable are standing beside some horrible rock chute waiting to call the medics.
