Forum menu
I'm confused. I thought my cycle commute was a good thing. Not only for me but for the environment - like, you know, zero emissions! But I've just been reading a thread on an intranet site where some fella is convinced that cycles slowing his (and other) cars down in the morning and making them overtake, is worse for the environment than if we were all in cars going the same speed. Much of the time that speed will be 0-10mph, obviously, because we'll be queuing a lot of the time... but has he got a point? He's posted multiple times on this and is clearly a far more intelligent person than I am (if somewhat blinkered).
Are you sure he's more intelligent than you ?
He sounds like an weapons grade idiot to me.
Only if he's a bad driver and doesn't leave space thereby having to accelerate and decelerate more heavily.
Sounds like a classic diversion tactic to me.
He doesn't seem to be considering the reverse.
How good would it be if everyone cycled!
So he is travelling in an un-environmentally friendly way and blaming other people??
As trail rat said...
If everyone travelled at cycle speed in their cars,wouldn't there be less fuel used and less pollution when cars are driving at a constant speed?. I would expect less congestion as well because junctions would no longer be choke points and also there would be less problems pulling out of side streets, people wouldn't have to accelerate hard to do this, less accidents, pedestrians feeling less threatened when crossing roads, insert your improvement here, etc......
If everyone cycled, there would be zero car emissions.
Sounds like an entitlement issue, how dare people on bikes hold him up by 2 seconds a journey.
Less bikes, more cars , longer traffic jams where cars are doing precisely no miles to the gallon.
How much energy is needed to produce his car and it's fuel?
Tell him that I told him to **** off. ****.
What tosh.
I could cycle the long way (20 miles) to work quicker than I can drive the direct route of 9 miles. Therefore, cars are effectively holding me up.
Shame I'm no longer commuting and stuck in the car since getting my spine broken by a driver who just couldn't wait to turn off the road, driving straight through me.
The guy hasn't a clue. Cycling to work is way quicker than driving, especially in urban areas.
Oh and next time he complains about being late because....
Tell him he just didn't allow enough time - the calmer you are the more irate they get normally
I'd point out that if he too was on a bike, this wouldn't be an issue and there would be no emissions from him either. Add in the health benefits and everyone's a winner.
Where I commute I would agree with his argument, fast countryside roads with long blind corners and hills. The one regular roadie I see most days often has a que of a few cars waiting to overtake and when you do it has to be a quick one as there aren't many good places. I feel sorry for the poor guy getting a face full of Diesel smoke all the time! The off road route is 10x nicer to ride!
A lot of these things have been pointed out to him already - he only drives 10 minutes and isn't fit enough to cycle quickly, so cycling would impact on his family time, therefore not be worthwhile (I know, I know + how far is a 10 minute drive?!)
The "if everyone was on bikes" argument doesn't wash because it's "not feasible".
I'm certainly not engaging with the twonk. Any points I would've made have been argued down by him anyway.
Where I commute I would agree with his argument
So there we are, maybe he has a similar commute to you (it's possible) - so he's right then..??
Tell him after Brexit we wont be able to afford petrol.
That will finish him off.
Smells dramatically of "I've paid alot for my car and I'm going to use it get out my way"
Yeah, I get his point.
I mean when I drive to work and I'm queuing on the motorway I often think It would be much quicker if all those annoying cyclists got out of the way.
I was thinking about the energy use of cycling vs driving while riding home last night - I probably cycle to work about a third of the time I have to go to the office. 20 ish miles, abour 1:15 cycling, 40 mins average driving.
I've found some info on this - the calculations have cycling needing 11 Mj per 100km, walking 22 Mj/100 km and something like a Polo needing 130 Mj/100 km. The car calculation seems to assume the driver of the car doesn't consume any energy, but it's probably minimal compared to the engine.
So, cycling is 10-25 more efficient than driving in terms of energy use (depending on the car). I would have guessed at more though so I'm mildly surprised.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport
He sounds like the sort of idiot that probably insisted his kids didn't get the MMR jab. Don't waste your time.
Yesterday morning on the way to work I passed a good two miles of almost stationary traffic on a narrow road because the first car couldn't get past a cyclist. The thought about how environmentally friendly cycling is crossed my mind at the time.
Surely it would be better for the environment if the twonk in question kept his pitiful opinions to himself and stopped wasting valuable electricity on your intranet?
He sounds like the sort of idiot
Just checked his profile - he's actually a proper inventor/scientist/boffin type. I'm stunned.
Its currently school holidays, so the roads are quieter, but not massively so, I'm still queuing at roundabouts, still rarely doing the speed limit. My 20-25 minute commute* seems to return 60mpg based on the car computer. its normally around 50mpg.
Small change in input forcing quite a large output, so I can see the same happening where car/cyclist interaction happens.
In 20 years time in our utopian future we will have cyclists complaining that the occasional car causes an increase in calorie consumption.
*full explanation, I require a vehicle for work 1 or 2 days a week. We are currently having a shower put in so me and one other colleague can ride to work when we will be in the office all day. I wouldn't take the route I drive even on a road bike. There's a half off road, half country lane route I'll be taking.
inventor/scientist/boffin type
Freelance? That could just be code for unemployed
being stuck behind a cyclist on a narrow road all by yourself in a 2m wide 5-7 seater child poisoning vehicle gives people a lot of time to contemplate how impractical and inappropriate their transport choice is, although it seems few people actually do contemplate it.
Always like this image to demonstrate how much worse congestion would be if we were all that selfish
Where I commute I would agree with his argument, fast countryside roads with long blind corners and hills.
Same for me. I get to work at about 07:30 so not much other traffic. I must be wasting masses of petrol by having to drive at 15mph rather than the much more efficient 40mph for a mile. Add it all up and you get the huge issue the guy must be referring to.
Add it all up and you get the huge issue the guy must be referring to.
Don't forget to offset the savings made by the cyclists which would increase greatly if you joined them on a bike....
he only drives 10 minutes and isn’t fit enough to cycle quickly, so cycling would impact on his family time,
(Struggles to think how far I can get by car in 10 mins, seems to be the same distance I can do by bike in 15 mins or an 'unfit' fully-loaded 30 min tops including big bloody hill)
Obviously this would be different if extra-urban dual carriageway, ie if A-road or motorway seconds from your door you could do (say) ten miles in ten minutes by car, which would take much longer by bicycle.
Back on point, ask him to deduct/offset all the emissions saved by cyclists who filter alongside existing motor-traffic queues every day.
in fact don't bother. He a foo'
So, cycling is 10-25 more efficient than driving in terms of energy use (depending on the car). I would have guessed at more though so I’m mildly surprised.
I wonder how it compares once you include 'fuel' processing.
i.e I don't eat raw carrots from my garden and petrol doesn't magically appear at the forecourt. I'm guessing that most healthy foods take far more energy to cook than they contain (I couldn't set fire to a pizza to heat an oven to cook a second pizza despite it being quite unhealthy, and there's the energy involved in making and transporting flour, tomatoes, cheese).
I cycled 25 miles into work today (and plan to do the same thurs and fri) so that's 150miles/week that I would otherwise be in the car (train doesn't work for my commute). Approx 4 gallons of petrol saved a week, approximately 42 kg of CO2 saved (real world figures of about 38mpg and 2.3kgCO2 per l of petrol, not manufacturer claimed).
Now Strava tells me I burn ~2000-3000 calories per day of cycling, so about 7500 per week. Or in food terms about 10 kg of potatoes.
10kg of potatoes is about 29kg of CO2 ( https://aligningwithearth.com/ranking-foods-carbon-footprint/)
So cycling 150 miles saves ~13kg of CO2 if your vegeterian
That's not including CO2 from meat production, (which is enormous about 30kg CO2 per kg meat).
Can someone check that? It doesn't seem right that cycling to work could be almost as bad as driving? Even when taking a relatively thirsty petrol car compared to a vegetarian? About the only thing I've not accounted for is ~8 hours of BMR calories, but as the cycling comes out of free time and driving time it's not really fair to count it (if I drove home and waited for my cycling self I'm still alive for that hour).
if he is so close maybe he should get a small motorbike or moped, then he wouldn't have the overtaking issues, would himslef cause less congestion and less emissions.
Takes me about 30 minutes to cycle to the station in the morning, and in a taxi it's about 25 mins.
he only drives 10 minutes and isn’t fit enough to cycle quickly, so cycling would impact on his family time,
Point out that if he wants to spend any family time with his grand kids he should probably get doing some exercise.
he’s actually a proper inventor/scientist/boffin type
Shows the disconnect between intelligence and people's opinions on driving. There really is no reasoning with them.
It's like the tools who sit up my chuff when I'm doing 30 in a 30. Even when I roll up to the next lights behind the person who set off away from me at the last set at 35-40, they can't see it.
People just don't want to wait behind a slower vehicle, even when it makes sod all difference to their overall progress. So they overtake a bike, then seethe when the bike just catches and re-overtakes them at the next queue.
There is the assumption that all commutes are like his, or at least what he thinks his commute is like.
It is of course possible to construct a situation where someone cycling to work creates more pollution due to the slowing of motorised traffic than if the cyclists had driven. The problem with his argument is that this is an edge case and for 99% of cyclists this is not the case.
Only if he’s a bad driver and doesn’t leave space thereby having to accelerate and decelerate more heavily.
Not nessecelery, depends on the road as well. He can leave as much space as he likes but if it aint safe to pass, then it aint safe to pass is it?
My commute is 15 miles each way & there's not a cat in hells chance of me ever cycling to work on that road. It's twisty for a lot of it with double white lines to go with it. (+ no changing facilities at work & sometimes I start at 06.15) I allow 30 mins for the journey in the car even though there's very little congestion.
On certain stretches of the road I can be behind cyclists for some time before It's safe to overtake. So I can see what this bloke means but I don't think it makes as much difference as he's making out.
You think riding a bike on the road is bad. Try driving a camper van.
Even when your doing the speed limit they want past you in the most rediculous places
Shows the disconnect between intelligence and people’s opinions on driving.
Too right - academic intelligence v common bleedin' sense.
If everyone travelled at cycle speed in their cars,wouldn’t there be less fuel used and less pollution when cars are driving at a constant speed?. I would expect less congestion as well because junctions would no longer be choke points and also there would be less problems pulling out of side streets, people wouldn’t have to accelerate hard to do this, less accidents, pedestrians feeling less threatened when crossing roads, insert your improvement here, etc……
Last time this happened (due to snow) the congestion was FAR worse...
If everyone cycled, there would be zero car emissions.
But everyone can't cycle... not by a long way.
I use my car infrequently but when I do its mostly 50 miles per way and more often over 100.
I’m confused. I thought my cycle commute was a good thing. Not only for me but for the environment – like, you know, zero emissions! But I’ve just been reading a thread on an intranet site where some fella is convinced that cycles slowing his (and other) cars down in the morning and making them overtake, is worse for the environment than if we were all in cars going the same speed. Much of the time that speed will be 0-10mph, obviously, because we’ll be queuing a lot of the time… but has he got a point? He’s posted multiple times on this and is clearly a far more intelligent person than I am (if somewhat blinkered).
I don't know who this bloke is or what his commute is but I VERY rarely do 0-10mph.... for any significant time.
and is clearly a far more intelligent person than I am (if somewhat blinkered)
Straight up... who is most blinkered???
There is no simple "good" for the environment...
When I drive I usually make a point of causing the least impact I can.... if nothing else it pass the time.
I avoid any town/city driving, especially with a cold diesel... I try and maintain a constant speed and edge the MPG fractions higher... of course I don't need to drive 100 miles+ to a trail at weekend but when I do I'm conscious of minimising the impact of my choice.
Workwise I don't have options most of the time... public transport could take 6-8 hours of my day compared to 1-2 driving... I'd much rather get home and have time to get on my bike than spend that time on trains and busses.
If I take my most two frequent drives they are 1hr30 vs 5 hours or 2 hours vs 5 hours... (driving vs public transport EACH WAY) ... I'm not going to feel guilty about driving...
I don't have all the numbers but I beleive your view is blinkered... have you factored in the emissions of CO2? Have you looked at how the extra food is delivered to your place of purchase?
Last Sunday I rode fairly locally... and as I keep an eye on consumption etc. I noticed that being behind cyclists does decrease my consumption ... but quite honestly probably my emissions as well. I wasn't in any hurry at all... and I wasn't bothered being behind the cyclists but just looking at the instantaneous consumption it was lower than usual. I'm not complaining .. it was a minor thing... but my MPG dipped considerably and I'd expect my emissions shot up even more.
HOWEVER this isn't about my car and emissions is it? It's about the whole queue of cars added together.
In other words I don't think this is as clear cut as you assume.
Can someone check that? It doesn’t seem right that cycling to work could be almost as bad as driving?
We cross posted but it might no SEEM right but it doesn't mean it's wrong.
It depends on so many things anyway.... as you noted.. but also what type of emissions and WHERE those emissions are. How your food gets to your table... and how much methane you produce etc. (let alone for us meat eaters the CO2 and methane impacts of eating more meat)
Many things are counter intuitive.... because of how we perceive.
An example is caffein in coffee. Intuitively many people think there is more caffein in an expresso than a filter coffee because our perception of strong...
You can cut this many ways... it all depends how you define impact on the environment.
But everyone can’t cycle… not by a long way.
While this is true, the majority of car journeys are short, and eminently suitable for being undertaken by bicycle.
stevextc: consumption decrease = MPG increase. Which are you talking about?
I don’t think this is as clear cut as you assume.
Who assumes? The person who stated the thread asking about it? hmm. yeah, long ramble, much bollocks.
TINAS - you've not accounted for upstream emissions from extraction, processing and distribution for petrol
While this is true, the majority of car journeys are short, and eminently suitable for being undertaken by bicycle.
Possibly but again it's more complex....
My short journeys tend to be to Wickes, Supermarket or LBS or similar... Mostly I'm not carrying a 8' board back or taking in a wheel or frame... Ive actually considered the frame and wheels.... (it's a crap drive and parking is a nightmare) but decided against it. OH could cycle but then frequently has to drive during the day.... (or someone has to)and carry a classes set of books home to mark .. Neighbour opposite can hardly walk to the bus stop... her carer probably has lots of other short trips... maybe they could be made by bike or not? My Mum has a few miles to the nearest small town... and is nearly 80...
I'm not saying lots of journeys couldn't be... but there are a lot of reasons why many are not as well.
I could get delivery from Wickes or supermarket for example but is the Wickes wagon "better" ??? Probably the supermarket van is... as its doing lots of customers.
The point is I guess HOW we define that "majority of car journeys".... its easy to take a number and say 1-2 miles or 5-10 miles... but it depends how that "journey" defined...
I'm sure a lot might have "better alternatives" but not all of the alternatives are bicycles... (e.g. it might be getting shopping delivered)
You might want to read the [b]thread title[/b] again before you go wibbling on about shopping in Wickes [b]etc[/b].