That shows how different people are… If you prefer a day on the SDW than a day in Afan, then i’m not sure i can add anything.
Agreed. Trail centres clearly dont float Continuity's boat. Doesnt mean they're boring, but I do understand his sentiment.
MTB is a broad church.
I can understand the reasons why people might drive less at the moment, but it doesn’t explain how the roads are so chocka. It’s taking me longer to get to and from places this year than ever. I’m driving less, but if we all drove less the traffic wouldn’t bunch up, shirley?
Less people are driving but most likely driving at the same time as everyone else...
I guess some places aren't for everyone or their skill level.
Long may they continue to exist, long may they continue to osmotically absorb the t5s and ebikes, but I hope some of you good people dabble a bit with an OS map and a packed lunch and maybe see the light!
I'm cringing on your behalf here pal.
Anyone know if Nant yr Arian is in good condition nowadays? Lovely memories of cruisy blue swoopy stuff before kids and now want to take them there.
Things change and people move on.
Remember a few years ago there were events (Evans ride it and many others) where people paid £30 odd to park at a village hall or school and ride a cross country loop in a queue with the 200 other people who had also signed up? You don't see many of those now.
I am in a regular group who night ride one or 2 evenings a week, it seems to be deeply unfashionable at the moment and we very rarely see anybody else out. A few years ago we would bump into several groups each ride and there would always be somebody new joining us.
Trail centres are good fun and add some variety but can also make you lazy. No need to read a map, plan a route, take food and water or even spares as everything is there for you.
Who knows, maybe we have all been convinced that we need more and more capable bikes to the point that anything but the most gnarly trails and dull and boring?
If I had to make an analogy to explain how I feel it would be that going to trail centres feels like masturbating to low-rent porn.
Really? That's the analogy that popped into your head?
Who knows, maybe we have all been convinced that we need more and more capable bikes to the point that anything but the most gnarly trails and dull and boring?
Err. In other news, you have a nose on your face.
No need to read a map, plan a route, take food and water or even spares as everything is there for you.
For those of us of a certain age, this was almost a guaranteed necessity for Mtb - at least before you learned which aspect of riding you liked, but since the advent of trail centres and more latterly smart phones and strava, its not necessary anymore.
I don't think it's an mtb pre-requisite to spend hours and hours poring over OS maps and spinning endless moorland BW to discover 5 minutes of good riding, or learn how to string a decent loop together, thats just the only option before tech was good enough that we didn't have to do it.
Sure it gives the old-skool riders a bit of a different skill set and experience, but its not better or worse than the current prevailing norm, just different.
I was at BPW for the first time the other week on a Thursday and it was rammed. Virtually no wait for the uplift, with the next bus loading before the first one departed. Only disappointment was they closed the top section after dinner. Brilliant place, huge fun and can't wait to go back although that may be a while as with fuel and everything else, it was not a cheap few days. It's a 4/5 hour journey each way for me so I just can't imagine I'll drive past BPW to go to the other local South Wales TC's any time soon.
I love a good trail centre but also enjoy exploring and natural stuff. I agree with a point made earlier about modern bikes spoiling some of the older TC's though as back in the early 2000's I thought Dalby was ace but these days I struggle to raise the enthusiasm to go, even though it's reasonably close, as it's dull on my 150/140 LLS gnaarpoon. I'm playing with shorter travel HT's atm though so may revisit some older routes.
are you all confusing trail centres and bike parks again?
I dunno how that can ever compare to the satisfaction of even non-technical and easy natural riding – e.g. the South downs way (whether in a day or just a loop on a sunny sunday) – let alone the genuine sense of excitement and achievement in the proper hills.
You can do both... You don't see people criticising track days because road-tripping across Europe is better. They are different activities. And yes I do both.
I hope some of you good people dabble a bit with an OS map and a packed lunch and maybe see the light!
Pfft. I've been doing this since the early 90s and yet I still like trail centres. Don't be so bloody condescending. Riding natural trails does NOT make you superior. There are lots of ways to enjoy cycling, none is fundamentally superior to any other, you should remember that.
Sure, somewhere like Cwmcarn is a little more hardcore than swinley, but in the end I’m still left feeling unfulfilled.
That sounds like you're expecting the trail to entertain you - how dreadfully passive! Swinley ridden properly fast (if you're fit enough) is an absolute blast and very technical. Oh and in case I need to point it out - technical doesn't just mean rocky.
Swinley ridden properly fast (if you’re fit enough) is an absolute blast
Swinley ridden like a fat middle aged duffer is great if you ask me 🙂
Is it not down to the fact that the face of MTB is changing hugely with the type of terrain evolving? Some of the riding at Wharncliffe is mental compared with 5-10 years ago. Loads of people riding huge stuff and not so many standard bridleway style trails?
The"norm" for many now is what we used to see pros riding in magazines etc
A trail centre then low rent porn sounds like a good day to me. Apart from that though just ride what you want to ride and have fun doing it. I'm of the opinion that if you're not having fun on your bike then you're doing something wrong. Even an easy trail can be made fun with the right attitude.
i quite like a day out pedalling on teh trails but getting anyone to actually do a big day out is pretty difficult these days. most people just want to lap out boring 'flow' trails at bikeparks. the art of riding uphill tech stuff (which the old trail centres now can be as they are weathered in) is mainly dead. while i moan greatly about going uphill i perversely do actually quite like the challenge.
also i wouldnt take my kids to afan, cwmcarn or penmachno because they would be pushing most of it and at coedy they would only be able to do the blue. i would happily take them to most uplift venues.
i quite like a day out pedalling on teh trails but getting anyone to actually do a big day out is pretty difficult these days.
Where in the country do you live?
brighton.
i dont do pedally days down here as its boring as hell. i do love a good welsh trail centre trail though.
brighton
Ah, um , err...
🤨
As you were.
thinking about it i think MTB being the new golf is quite realistic. with uplifts and ebikes anyone can (and they do) MTB. Before this you actually had to want to get tired and sweaty and have a little bit of talent in order to ride a MTB. now you can be a lazy golfer and have a day out in the sun, expend no energy, and have a pint at the end. hence teh easy options are now busy and the harder ones are less busy.
this is exactly represented on our local trails as the tech trails (or techy bits as we dont have long hard trails) just dont get ridden. the easy flow or jump trails do though. i used to build trails to be as orrible/tech as possible to ride for fun - there isnt any point any more as i`d be the only one riding them.
Anyone know if Nant yr Arian is in good condition nowadays?
One diversion in place a month ago, otherwise fine. I tied the complete Syfridin into a longer trip through the area.
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are you all confusing trail centres and bike parks again?
No.
hence teh easy options are now busy and the harder ones are less busy.
It's completely the opposite way round here in the Tweed Valley.
There seems to be far more people on both assisted and un assisted bikes riding the hand built trails than the main TC's.
i used to build trails to be as orrible/tech as possible to ride for fun – there isnt any point any more as i`d be the only one riding them.
Seems odd.
You built trails you like riding but don't any more as other people don't like riding them?
So do you now build trails you don't like to ride so others will ride them?
I is confused.
After 2002 I never wanted to set up a Polaris again. We had very fit trail centre riders leaving gates open: and numbers wanting to do two day endurance events on natural terrain were dropping. After the 2007 sub prime crash the numbers doing 5 hour endurance events in Mid Wales withered and the events folded. I had folks complaining that they'd had to ride on grass....
One doesn't have to be fit to ride at uplift centres so....
Weirdly it's the gravel riders doing what the early mountainbikers used to do. The TransCambrian now has a disproportionate number of gravel bikes, considering how few are actually sold.
Numbers for single day events are likely to fall a lot further any place far from population centres, again. Not that remotely placed events/venues have ever properly recovered.
Any one who thinks otherwise, well they just haven't been around long enough.
TransCambrian now has a disproportionate number of gravel bikes
Because it's a perfect long distance gravel ride, but a fairly dull mountain bike ride?
One doesn’t have to be fit to ride at uplift centres so….
This is such a daft thing to say .
cloggy
Full MemberOne doesn’t have to be fit to ride at uplift centres so….
I mean, in principle at some venues you can pretty much get the uplift and then roll down but in practice, doing an uplift with even a little commitment is a bloody physical thing. I'm more ruined after a day at fort william that a day's endurance racing. What you lose in seated pedalling for hours you gain in manhandling the bike, absorbing hits, and standing pedalling.
I didn't say being fit doesn't make you an altogether better rider, it's just as a newbie one doesn't have to be already fit to do uplifts. Thus it is more accessible. It's not like Triathlon where one has to train hard just to get round, let alone do well.
As for the TransCambrian it's been stated by those that have done it that the best bike to do it on is a Mountain Bike. A lot of the Gravel Bike vids have riders cutting out a lot of offroad from day two on; though they don't often admit it.
So in fact you complaint is that that you're bemoaning the lack of really dull events that prioritized aerobic fitness because nowadays everyone's having more fun at the bike park?
it's not a winning argument if I'm honest.
It depends what one likes. You certainly don't get instant gratification from Endurance events. One has to work at it and that seems to be something that less folks are prepared or have the time to do, and why should they? To be honest this isn't a recent trend. It's been going that way for several decades. Less and less people work physically hard, and sitting at a desk doesn't help. I found over time more and more were taking the short course route at my events. They were training hard but had little base fitness to build on.
Modern Mountain Bikes allow so many more options than road bikes and there are so many more locations to go to. When the welsh trail centres opened that's all there was for folks that couldn't map read and the bikes were still pretty basic. Every thing has it's day.
Actually when one thinks about it the modern diversity and capability of Mountain Bikes has allowed far more people to find enjoyment. E Bikes have taken that several steps further. As long one has enough disposable income, so ever more a middle class hobby.
Dull long distance events have died off because most folks have realised that there's not much fun to be had from riding up a big climb just to ride down a fireroad descent.*
Not really surprising TBH
If you just want physical torture just go to a gym or ride a road bike.
Mountain biking is primarily about fun for most folks.
* I think I did enough marathon events on a singlespeed back in the day to comment on this.
I live near Bridgend so I can get to Afan easily enough and love the trails there. They do seem to have loads of cars there every weekend including the over flow. Not done BPW yet because I'm just getting back into MTB after a 9 year Hiatus on the road. Did go up to Smilog woods on Wednesday which was loads of fun. Will be doing BPW when I can get used to my wheels being in the air. Even when I was on the MTB I wasn't fussed about air. I'm not as young as I was and I'm not sure how well I bounce. But I'm sure I'll get there.
As far as Afan is concerned I think it's been in decline for a long time. The cafe at Glnycorrwg used to be great, but when the bike shop owners took it over it rapidly went to pot. The camping facilities aren't as good/maintained as they once were. The Penhydd was nowhere near as good when they rebuilt it. When they had to clear cut a lot of the forest it changed the nature of the trails massively, washing away all the dirt and bringing the rocks to the surface, making the trails much harder to maintain momentum on ( I know this was due to disease and out of their control), I used to love the final descent on Whites, but I didn't really enjoy it much the last time I rode it as it had changed so much.
I also think many riders are just looking for a different type of riding nowadays. Most riders I know are much more interested in the winch and plummet style of riding on steeper terrain than the old trail centre model. I ride at Cwmcarn a lot (there and Pontypool are my local spots), although I only really use the trail centre stuff for linking up the off piste trails.
Personally I'd much rather spend the day riding at Barry Sidings (or any of the myriad other local spots) than riding trail centre stuff. I'd also choose to do that than pay for a day uplifting at BPW (especially now it's so expensive).
We can't complain around here though, so much choice and there's something for everyone.
You built trails you like riding but don’t any more as other people don’t like riding them?
So do you now build trails you don’t like to ride so others will ride them?
I is confused.
Kind of yes. I build still I like to ride but it's jumpy flow stuff rather then tech stuff. If I invest weeks building a tech line then only I will ride it and it'll get overgrown fast. Hence I build stuff more people will ride so the trails remain. There is more than enough to keep me going with maintenance at the local spot without a random line only I ride. I really like seeing people ride stuff I've made regardless of whether it's gnar or not. Building, for me, is masive part of MTB.
Anyway I digress. The art of tech has been lost to the popularity of the sport. Locally we began to see the tech bits being lost when the wide bar trend started (as they didn't physically fit!) Then more as bikes got longer ( as the don't go around corners as easily). We used to razz the local on DJ bikes as they were short and fun and the trails were tight and tech. Now the trails are easier (faster and flowier) with 50% less corners. Turns are the best bit! - but they are hard. More people not as good in the sport need easier trails. The old Welsh trails centres were never easy blue runs even when new - So therefore you get less people riding them.
singlespeedstu
Full MemberDull long distance events have died off because most folks have realised that there’s not much fun to be had from riding up a big climb just to ride down a fireroad descent.*
Doesn't the crash in long distance and endurance events more or less coincide with the start of the UK enduro scene? Before that, if I wanted to do a race, I'd end up at a Ten or 12/24 or doing the Selkirk marathon or something. Basically that was the "I want to do an event but I'd feel like an absolute dobber doing a pointy end XC race or SDA so I'll do something with cameraderie and chat and friends and lots of riding and not care if I'm 278th" option.
But from 2011 onwards, I'd do an enduro. Obviously not the same thing but they ticked the same box for me, something you could go and have fun and challenge yourself and ride new places without actually needing to be super fit or fast and where you're not just there to pay for the elites, while being... well, better.
I was the absolute perfect target market for all those older events til then, and then I completely wasn't.
Doesn’t the crash in long distance and endurance events more or less coincide with the start of the UK enduro scene?
I think for me the Enduro scene blossomed because it replicated how most folks rode with their mates week in week out, ie cruising along the flats and uphills and smashing the descents. Suddenly; events that were either another sport but with the addition of bikes - like orienteering or XC (two hours of near death around a grass field) just didn't appeal. Mostly I think because your actual bike handling skills weren't rewarded, but something else was - like navigation skill or your aerobic capacity and you didn't need a mountain bike for either of those things, and the courses were often designed to use as easy terrain as possible will still nominally being "off road" to flatter those folks.
Enduro changed all that.
Doesn’t the crash in long distance and endurance events more or less coincide with the start of the UK enduro scene?
Indeed it does. Which again goes along with people realising that long distance events were getting very dull.
We went from doing all the big events to just doing the Dyfi and Selkirk events as they were all getting shorter and easier. In the end we even stopped doing those two events as it became easier to find all the hand built stuff in different areas. So would just go away for a weekend and ride that instead of feeling we had to go to "a race"
Then Enduro came along and really killed the big Endurance events.
The old Welsh trails centres were never easy blue runs even when new
They were never exactly technical either though were they.
Even on oldschool bikes with head down and arse up.
Good fun in the winter though when everything else was knee deep in shite.
Actually this sounds interesting. Used to ride afan a decade ago a few times a year, as that's what MTB was to me back then.
These days it's laps of bikeparks on the ebike.
The last time I tried afan there were too many still on motorless bikes making passing and maintaining uphill flow pretty tedious.
If there are less people there now I'll give it another go when I fancy a chilled riding day.
XC (two hours of near death around a grass field)
For ****s sake XC has never been this. Cyclo-cross is, but that's not even 2 hours.
XC (two hours of near death around a grass field)
Always make me smile when I see this kind of comment.
XC is so far from this it's hard to know where to begin..
It isn't now I'll give you that., but it certainly used to be when I took part. Last race i took part in ( at Swinley) had a series of bomb-holes that were removed from the course because only 1 in 10 riders could complete it, most were either at their limit aerobically or just didn't have skill set.
Also, by "grass field" I mean not technical riding, not actual grass fields
Also, by “grass field” I mean not technical riding, not actual grass fields
So why did you say 'grass field' when you didn't mean grass field and in fact meant something else entirely?
All the XC races I've done, since 1994, have had plenty of forest singletrack that has always been a challenge to ride flat out. Which is about right, IMO, you shouldn't be made to commit to something properly hard in an XC race but you should be able to gain an advantage by being technically better.
For those who aren't very good, these days they just make chicken runs on the obstacles which are longer. And of course they go slower on the regular singletrack too. I think this is also true for enduro races too no?
mrlebowski
Free MemberXC is so far from this it’s hard to know where to begin..
I mean, it's exactly as true as uplifts meaning you don't have to be fit.
The last time I tried afan there were too many still on motorless bikes making passing and maintaining uphill flow pretty tedious.
Oh man. Where to begin.
So why did you say ‘grass field’ when you didn’t mean grass field and in fact meant something else entirely?
Yes, it was comedic hyperbolic shorthand for the sorts of dull races that XC used to be. I promise to be more literal next time.
And less hilarious, obvs.
it was comedic
Sorry I didn't notice. Perhaps you could make some sort of signal next time, so I know to laugh.
😉
Dyfi bike park is rammed every weekend at the moment.
Climachx/Dyfi forest opposite is just steady, but there seems to be plenty of off-piste action going on.
There does seem to be a draw on gnarly DH stuff, which is fine.
It may be the case that a lot of the good trails from the boom times in the 1990/2000's are now worn out and are hard work unless you have 150mm travel, so you may as well ride the gnarly DH stuff.
Personally, I'd like to see more sustainable trail building of good/challenging long XC trails, but these are very costly to build and maintain.
