I tend to only do trail centres 2-3 times a year - we usually fit it into a 'cheap' weekend at my caravan with the lads. The travel costs do add up, and as a 'roadie' at heart I feel it's daft driving 100 miles or more to ride 20.
I'm getting the miles in commuting and on the road bike. I've not touched the Full Sus since October !!! I'm lucky the Peaks offer enough natural stuff by riding from home, but the road bike has been beckoning, as it involves no car travel.
Have they ever been that busy though? Since the nineties a group of us have fairly regularly stayed somewhere for a week most years and ridden trail centres and other stuff. None of them have ever been busy.
The exceptions being BPW and, if I'm passing Cannock Chase.
I travel for work a lot and often get a sneaky ride in at a trail centre, again never that busy.
The weekends may be different but I tend to stay local at the weekends unless it's a race/event.
Obviously as mentioned fuel costs will have a big impact plus working longer hours to make ends meet for some
Have they ever been that busy though? Since the nineties a group of us have fairly regularly stayed somewhere for a week most years and ridden trail centres and other stuff. None of them have ever been busy.
The exceptions being BPW and, if I’m passing Cannock Chase.
thats a good point, something a place with a few or even a single "big loop" is going to have. Even with vastly different riding speeds, and now with ebikes changing that even further, you arent going to really meet that many people on your ride. If they set off 20 minutes ahead of you on a 2 hour loop, thats quite a differnece in ability for you to catch them up.
Last year I went to Afan in the spring, probably about the first weekend that Wales let us in after lock down. Barely got a parking spot arriving at 10ish. Hardly saw anyone on the trails though.
Contrast to anything with a series of very short loops that all return to the same spot (like the B1ke places, Chicksands etc) and you will see absolutely everyone there, multiple times.
Uplift places are even worse, even small ones with only one bus running, because you will all end up at the same spot at the bottom, within a few minutes of each other, multiple times an hour.
Maybe they need to rebrand as extreme gravel.
Ebikes make it seem busier, when I was at FoD earlier in the year I swear I got passed by the same guy three times while I was climbing up the main fireroad.
Interesting you mention Glyncorrwg being the empty one, from what I've seen myself, the Afan Visitor Centre (Bottom of Y Wal) is nearly empty since the bike shop and cafe shut.
But again, the BPW effect really hurts everyone, and again off piste really seems to drag everyone in. Same with North Wales tbh, I went to Coed-y-Brenin in the winter, and it was completely empty.
Interesting you mention Glyncorrwg being the empty one, from what I’ve seen myself, the Afan Visitor Centre (Bottom of Y Wal) is nearly empty since the bike shop and cafe shut
Was chatting to a bloke working there the other day, apparently there's people willing to move in, but the council seem to be dragging their heels... I wasn't even aware it'd closed as we'd not been since about Oct. Shame it has though as it was excellent.
From what I can see, the bike shop is moving in soon to their new place, but without a cafe, it's gonna be hard to drag people out of BPW.
Yeah it's been shut for a good while I think, certainly not helping the situation. I can't think why the council is being resistant?
Probably a hot take, but bikes have outgrown trail centres.
I mean that in the sense that any modern 140 mm+ bike feels sluggish on the typically mellow trail centre descents. The local's tracks in Cwmcarn/FoD are much more busy than the trail centres. Can also blame strava for making off-piste easier to find.
I mean that in the sense that any modern 140 mm+ bike feels sluggish on the typically mellow trail centre descents.
You're clearly way better than me... my day at Afan was arguably harder than my day after at BPW. BPW doesn't have the rocks, roots, terrain changes, uppy bits, downy bits, it's less of a day out for me.
As I said above, descents are easily comparable with the easier half of BPW. Which seem to be the trails there that get the most traffic.
My bike is certainly "trail" not "gnarpoon" and I guess I'm just a bit rubbish.
Seems like that at Llandegla as well. – more so than at other trails
Last few times I've been at Llandegla recently (on a weekend) its been dead. Used to struggle for parking but not anymore. Weirdly quiet. But yeah its dominated by ebikes these days, but that doesn't bother me nor do I think that's the reason it's now very quiet.
More to do with the fact that every trail they've built or 'updated' in the last few years they've actually made worse or as with the new Michelin trail it just doesn't work and is a total cock up.
It doesn't even link up in to an existing route.
Whoever is in charge there is out of touch and is making the trails worse and worse. Some of the new stuff is that bad its embarrassing.
Throw in the extra person in the car charges (which in itself is taking the p**s) and general parking price hikes and its a no brainer its dying a slow death.
I think a lot of people ride primarily for the downhills, but also don't want to just uplift. If that's what you want then you can get a lot more of it on a single hillside with a fire road to climb and multiple tracks going down than you would on a trail centre loop. See Barry Sidings, Golfie, numerous areas in FoD etc, Afan masts. If you want to ride a big loop and don't mind/prefer fire road and road climbs then you can do that in South Wales and FoD without going anywhere near a trail centre, and with more varied and exciting downhill trails. Can't remember the last time I went to a trail centre to ride the marked trails.
Thats true, I am proud of myself for clearing the white's climb, its a fun challenge. Thats probably something becoming less common in MTB these days.
But if I'm doing Whites and Blade on the same day, I'm taking the fire road rather than doing it a second time.
Is it just me, or are more people steering away from XC these days?
I haven't had time or fitness to get to Wales for quite a few years now but this makes sense. Pretty much everyone I talk to these days goes to BPW, some mention CyB, but very few talk about Afan/Glyncorrwg.
Still, bodes well for me when I do finally leave the county as I'll be heading for the likes of Afan over BPW. If you can't ride up it, you shouldn't ride down it 😀
We used to go down and stay near Afan every year, ride all the trailcentres, that was the standard "south wales holiday". We'd usually do the same in the north for cyb etc.
Then, one year we went to BPW and that was a great addition. Then we went to BPW and the FOD. Then we discovered BMCC. And now our wales week is all uplifts, and we basically don't even try to talk ourselves into visiting Afan. I do miss the old pedalled holiday but you just get so much more riding done.
Tweed Valley still has a greater concentration of people near it which means more frequent flyers, but if it were to have 4 different uplift venues that'd draw away tons of the tourist trade. You can't really do an uplift holiday in Scotland, not without relocating, so "one day on the uplift, the rest pedalled" has become a standard tweed valley holiday in the same way as lots of uplifts has in south wales. And Afan etc always seemed more dependent on tourism in the first place.
I do think it's a shame in a lot of ways, I'm not sure that a lot of the older trail centres are really viable now, and the whole "put up an attraction to draw people to the area" has fallen by the wayside a bit. Think of Laggan, it basically paid for itself within years, that just wouldn't happen now. Would you build a Kirroughtree, or an Afan? But in other ways it's obviously great.
Cost of travel doesn't make any difference to my visits to "local" trail centre. Instead of mixing that up with day trips to further-away ones though, I'm doing a few more bridleway rides closer to home.
Looked around a bit more during/after Storm Arwen and found different places to go, then kept going there.
Cost of everything kills off doing long weekends to further-away trail centres.
Back to the office initiative means commuting is sucking up weekday evening time, leaving chores that need doing on the weekend.
I think people are realising that going down is a lot more fun than going up. We do a BPW weekend with the Cwmcarn XC loop on the Sunday and it's good fun but not a patch on hooning it down BPW on the Saturday. It would be amazing to see some funding to put some more trails at Cwmcarn.
Totally agree with @Lucky7500 . Im down the Golfie most weekends and It's rammed . At 11 or 12 on a sunday at the top of NYNY I've seen as much as 10 -20 guys hanging about. Indeed our group yesterday was 10 of us mostly local but a dad and a son from Chorley. It's a good thing though Innerleithen now has 4 bike shops plenty of air bnb and normal accomodation and most people will only really do the Golfie , GT and DH traquair side. Most will never ride Yair , Thornielee , glenbenna or cademuir.
As for Penmanshiel It's a great wee hill and the new jumpline on the other hill will be great when finished , A real labour of love for the builder.
Things i noticed were that lockdown made a lot of people find out about what is local, i tend to hit FoD mostly, as well as up Dursley/Cranham/etc, then days out at CwmCarn and BPW.
As others say, to go to Afan, i have to pass FoD, CwmCarn, etc, it just means time in the car that i could be on the bike, FoD has every type of trail you can want, and you can do big loops around the place linking stuff up, BPW is just a place to go for a day of fun, but at nearly 50 quid a ticket, it's not something i do often, weirdly doing it this Saturday though!
I agree with @argee completely, Afan is by no means bad, but to get there I have to pass FOD, BPW and Cwmcarn, it's just not worth the drive.
And even at afan it feels like masts has more traffic than the main trails. The allure of pedalling up a rocky nadgy climb for an hour before doing some descents that are fun for 20 seconds at a time before a mini climb isn't much fun on a modern bike.
IMO trail centre descents need to be more engaging, take the lower half of BPW - that's probably the benchmark for easy going fun trails and that's spoken by someone who can't stand the place for how commercial it is. Afan/coed y brenin etc need trails like that. Sure they have the odd good section but not enough to warrant the full loops etc.
It would be amazing to see some funding to put some more trails at Cwmcarn.
There was for the new blue but seeing as the place was basically built on EU Objective 1 funding (as was most of the Welsh centres, even BPW had some) then that avenue is closed. Caerphilly Council did chuck £160k at Cwmcarn a few years ago but all that bought was some new walls and signs in the car park, some EV charging points and a new barrier for the entrance to Forest Drive. The blue and the resurfaced Forest Drive road came from EU match funding to repair the damage caused by the felling and the fire. If you want to see how the trails are funded without Objective 1, look at Glyncorrwg (nothing for nearly a decade, the small bike park was a separate thing), Brechfa (again nothing bar reparations post-felling) and Coed Trallwm (closed in 2018).
Any new stuff, like the Enduro trails at Cwmcarn and the rebuilt Skyline at Glyncorrwg, are done by locals then adopted if they're safe. Funding will be poor from now on as the commercial uplift centres are sucking in all the paying customers, eroding the economic benefit argument for Welsh Assembly money to be put into the older places.
It's an aggressive cycle. The more less funding the trail centre's get, the worse condition and more dated the trails/facilities feel, thus the less people go, and in turn they receive less funding.
I feel like FoD really has it all in terms of A) Easy to get to B) DH/push up trails C) enduro/xc trails D) cafe and bike shop.
That really should be the template, I know it's bloomin expensive, but that does work.
I feel like FoD really has it all in terms of A) Easy to get to B) DH/push up trails C) enduro/xc trails D) cafe and bike shop.
I reckon Cwmcarn has that too - 3 normal xc ish (but quite fast down hills on them compared to some other trail centres) trails, downhill runs with uplift, steeper off piste style trails, bike shop, loos / changing room / bike wash / cafe.
Afan does always seem run down when I’ve been there and Brechfa didn’t seem to have any facilities at all.
CYB was pretty good in terms of upkeep and cafe although I didn’t love the 2 black loops we did back to back. Needs another visit though to try some other trails.
‘Degla for me had a lovely new cafe but the trails were a bit meh. The black sections were really red imo and there wasn’t enough of that sort of thing.
Interesting thread - stayed in Afan Thurs - Sun last week, and was having similar conversations with mate I was riding with. We both used to ride there regularly 10+ years ago and were commenting how quiet it was and at what point does the place become no longer viable.
Riding wants have obviously changed, but I think there's something in the travel thing. I live on the Quantocks and they are rammed most weekends, and have been for the last 2 years. Can't help thinking that coincided with Wales being shut during Covid and people finding new places. With Strava and easily available gps files, it's as easy to find a good route. Why plough on for another 2 hours when you can ride there?
It's a shame though. Was a lovely nostalgic trip last week and I have huge affection for Afan, but I can't see it ever getting the investment it needs to compete again.
Ditto my friend. Afan has a soft spot in my heart and is worth a trip every now and then, but it's simply not as good as the closer alternatives. There is nothing Afan offers that other don't.
Wales needs a DMBIN[W]S or similar. If you look at the progress that scotland is making in terms of mountain bike development, its on a different scale now to Wales and I think wales is suffering from that lack of development.
So folk are staying local and exploring thier area more OR getting the most bang for their buck and hitting BPW OR going abroad.
Feels like the sport is evolving, not sure what into...
I still like a.massive loop and the adventure that goes with it. Maybe a trail centre with some off piste to mix it up.
A DMBinS-esque operation for Wales would be perfect. It seems like most "classic" trail centres are fading away, and not to get philosophical or anything, but times change, styles change and clearly trails change.
Wales needs a DMBIN[W]S or similar. If you look at the progress that scotland is making in terms of mountain bike development, its on a different scale now to Wales and I think wales is suffering from that lack of development.
Scotland helped along a fair bit by the right to ride any path I expect. Most areas of Wales have very few bridleways. Of course DMBinW could campaign for better access, but with relatively small land area within easy reach of large populations I fear Scotland-style freedoms would never work.
Apparently BPW can have 500 people visit on a weekend per day now they’ve split the morning / afternoon….
Wow - just looked and I will never go on a summer weekend again. Money grabbing to the extreme
verderers
Free MemberI feel like FoD really has it all in terms of A) Easy to get to B) DH/push up trails C) enduro/xc trails D) cafe and bike shop.
I think it's partly self-sustaining too, FOD is usually busy, and not just that but it tends to be happy busy, full of people of all ages having a good time. That makes it really welcoming for less serious/newer riders, and generally just easier to also have a good time yourself, it's infectious. And that kind of multiplies when you have so much of a range of riding- like, BMCC has a similarly joyful feeling about it, to me, but it doesn't have the range of riding.
There's just something bloody lovely about FOD... Get on the bus, ride past the blue, see a family out for their first ride, blast down Sheepskull or something, then see a kid on a balance bike doing the pump track,then go do some half-abandoned offpiste in a random lovely bit of forest, then go have a burger at the cafe and everyone's just mingling. Glentress can come close but not really. Flyup 417 lacks the scale and the open-to-all feel.
with relatively small land area within easy reach of large populations I fear Scotland-style freedoms would never work.
Folk keep parroting this but seem to forget that the Scottish Land Reform Act applies to areas next to its largest cities too - like the Pentland Hills outside Edinburgh. It's not all barren wasteland.
@Northwind You've hit the nail on the head there. It's got the right mix of pretty much everything. Aaand, it's just the right side of commercialisation, it has all the facilities etc, without losing most of its fod charm. It's just epic.
Scotland helped along a fair bit by the right to ride any path I expect. Most areas of Wales have very few bridleways. Of course DMBinW could campaign for better access, but with relatively small land area within easy reach of large populations I fear Scotland-style freedoms would never work.
There is legislation held up in the Assembly to have similar access rights so hopefully it'll happen soon. Also a lot of the country is criss-croosed with old mining tracks that, while not official bridleways, are completely useable and used regularly. Add in our forests that are pretty much open anyway and you have lots of potential. What we lack is the population density in lots of places fro any dig groups or access forums to develop so nothing happens.
Cannock Chase was super busy this weekend just gone.
When did Cannock chase move to Wales?
I don't think most MTBers in Wales pay any attention to wether something is a bridleway or not!
Cannock Chase was super busy this weekend just gone.
The riding there is also poor compared to Wales
When did Cannock chase move to Wales?
#pedantic alert. You new here?
Folk keep parroting this but seem to forget that the Scottish Land Reform Act applies to areas next to its largest cities too – like the Pentland Hills outside Edinburgh. It’s not all barren wasteland.
While it helps to have a precedent of open access, I don't think it's actually the biggest factor in terms of the successes that DMBinS is having. They're looking at the whole ecosystem of MTB, how it generates cash, supports other businesses, works with other businesses. I will confess at first I did think it sounded like jobs-for-the-boys but since I got working a bit with them I have been impressed at the scope of things they're doing. For example, has anyone in wales done a social media training workshop for people working in and around the industry to promote welsh riding? I doubt it.
Fashions change, people's habits are transitory, and as is always said you have to keeping moving forward just to stand still. I think Welsh trail centres have stood still mostly since the wind farm money dried up. I do still love riding there, but Im old school compared to most riders these days, and still enjoy a 40km ride without assistance! Its just too far for me now (when Tweed is < 2h)
Wales has fantastic scenery, bridleway and empty single track road in spades.
Perhaps riders have discovered there's a world outside trail centres?
Ugh here we go again with the anti-trail centre snobs.
There's definitely potential for a DMBinW, but is there the political will?
I think MTB would be embraced (even further) as an economic benefit in the Valleys, but I still get the impression it's regarded as a nuisance by some in the north of the country.
Fingers crossed for the access reform, that could obviously be a key driver in establishing a DMBinW.
