met a chap yesterday who came out with this when we were chatting about his e motorbike, and i asked him where he rode it. capable of 45mph apparently, 6kw, and a range of 60 miles i think he said. it has a switch that limits it to 15mph which according to this guy, 'makes it legal'. frankly i doubt that, and i don't think he would be on very firm ground if stopped on the road or any publicly accessible land.
now, i think these are probably fine things to have and enjoy, but as someone who does voluntary maintenance on trails from time to time, i have to say my feelings are somewhat mixed.
MOT and insurance?
what, does he have either? no idea.
it's not something i've really looked in to, but i understood that any vehicle capable of over what? 15 or 16mph without human assistance, was considered a motor vehicle of some type and therefore needed to comply with construction and use regs
Yep it would be a motorbike of some description, did he buy it from somebody reputable or is it a conversion?
Sounds like a Bultaco Brinco?
import from china i think.
that sort of thing col, yeah.
I doubt it's legal to ride where he rides it but I can see Emotorcycles becoming more common on trails.
I know someone who rides motorcycle Endoro's & in the past he would allegedly ride it where he shouldn't,often at night.He's now added a Emotorcycle to the stable and apparently he loves it because it allows him to get places he couldn't get to on his KTM as on that bike the exhaust noise alerted people to what he was doing...
Legal or not, I can see the Emotorcycles taking over from crossers in the not to distant future.
it’s not something i’ve really looked in to, but i understood that any vehicle capable of over what? 15 or 16mph without human assistance, was considered a motor vehicle of some type and therefore needed to comply with construction and use regs
My (limited) understanding of this is, if it has pedals it’s a bicycle. If it doesn’t, it’s a motor vehicle (motorbike)
Not too sure about electric motorbikes on bridleways etc.. purely for their multi use access, but I guess if the leccy motorbike does indeed use the limiter then they’re going to cause as much damage as a 2.1 mtb tyre etc.
The bultaco thingy look kinda neat..
But a bicycle it really isn’t..
Legal or not, I can see the Emotorcycles taking over from crossers in the not to distant future.
Yup, and the crosser arseholes will ruin them for the green laners who want to pootle
The solution is to only allow purely human powered two wheeled vehicles on trails.
Welcome to trails that become trenches.
We saw this before when Japanese 2 stroke MX motorbikes became popular from the 1960s onwards. All the trails that had been ridden with due care by the previous generation on trials bikes now became roost paradises for macho wee pricks.
Result, trails all got closed off.
Want to see it happen again?
(I have no objection to eBikes, but eMotorbikes will soon be encroaching on mtb trails IMO.)
Where can you actually ride these things off road and legally?
Private land and tracks probably, lots of MX tracks about for people to ride
My (limited) understanding of this is, if it has pedals it’s a bicycle.
Nope. If it has a throttle, a motor of more than 250W or is powered above 15.5mph, it’s a motorbike. Pedals are irrelevant
Assuming you mean electric motorbikes that aren't registered etc. (possibly the grey imported ones don't comply with the regulations so it wouldn't be possible to do that even if you tried).
I think that anywhere a motor vehicle/bike has a right of way, legal commpliance is needed or it is a criminal offence.
Anywhere there isn't a right of way will infringe the landowners property rights and may be a criminal offence for other reasons eg common land.
So they are legal with the landowners permission if you stay off BOATs and roads.
What's the story in Scotland?
Very much not legal apart from on land he owns or has permission to ride it on. If it's where you were planning on walking the dogs he won't get permission.
Limiter switch is irrelevant.
Iirc the bulcato is an e-bike as long as you keep it limited, just like any other e-bike. The difference is most e-bikes are built to work best at the limit. Whereas the bulcato has more in common with a 50cc Derbi Senda with pedals.
So yes the guy you met is correct as long as he doesn't turn the limiter off.
The next step up is the KTM e-XC, which is a full on electric MX/Enduro/Trail bike, which would be covered by the same rules as a petrol powered one (landowners permission and/or tax, mot, insurance, number plate and brake llght etc.
Department of Transport disagrees with you on switches that enable you to exceed the restrictions in place under the EPAC regs.
Complying with A1 licence requirements across Europe also helps with the appeal for younger riders – want to be the coolest kid going to college each day? Freeride E-XC will help you with that.
KTM e-XC, so this is classified as a moped ?
Or does A1 compliance mean it’s a motorbike but has the same restrictions as the “never ridden a motorbike before so has to do a test before you ride it, and under the 125cc limit rules” thingy.
I like this BTW, I watched a vid of it and it looked be a whole load of f.u.n...
What's the distinction between an e-bike and a 15mph limited e-crosser? Surely it's going to be difficult to stop people from riding limited e motorbikes at trail centres if the only difference is that one of them has pedals?
and under the 125cc limit rules” thingy.
Yup. A1 means up to 125cc (with some power weight restrictions) so its a step up from a moped.
What’s the distinction between an e-bike and a 15mph limited e-crosser?
An e-bike is restricted to <15mph, motor is restricted in power and, most importantly, its pedal assisted.
At least it's (slightly) better than the group of MXers I met coming the other way on a bridleway last week.
They'd properly churned it up, and when I pointed this out to the lead guy his comment was a laughable "well, live and let live mate." I think my response of "no, **** off to where you're allowed to ride and stop ruining our local trails." didn't go down too well.
My understanding is that if his ebike / e motorbike was more than 250w and / or capable of more than 25kph something akin to the bulltaco then it’s an e moped with pedals , and so illegal on bike only trails and bridleways etc with or without restrictor switch and illegal on roads without correct insurance & mot etc. Just to muddy some pretty murky waters still further there are now a whole heap of 250w motorbike / moped looking bikes with pedals that are technically ebikes and so allowed any where pedal bikes go.
As for the ktm it’s equivalent ( in the eyes of the law) to a 125cc so can be ridden on L plates and CBT.
"The solution is to only allow purely human powered two wheeled vehicles on trails."
That's how the Land Reform Act works in Scotland.
Unmotorised access only unless you have the landowner's permission.
(not that ebikers bother)
i hadn't spotted the example referenced above had pedals - his didn't, just pegs. i'd be surprised a switch which limits the top speed ( cruise control ) would be accepted as limiting the power - it doesn't. so while i guess complying with the letter of the law WRT top speed, the vehicle is still capable of much more if the operator chooses.
First they came for the eBikers but I did nothing as I'm not an eBiker.
Then they came for the MTBers and I did nothing as I'm not an MTBer.
Then they came for the gravel biking canal towpath riding ****ers and everybody laughed because Rydflat is a GBCTPW
I don't think anyone will see a slippery slope from banning/stopping e-MX type bikes or pure motor driven bikes.
£10k that KTM ^^
Maybe they’re pricing them out of the e-bike (cycle) market on porpoises..
You can get a 2013 EXC for £2500..
"no, **** off to where you’re allowed to ride and stop ruining our local trails.” "
Excellent answer. I do hope that the same applies when thinking about riding the push bike on a footpath.
These things whilst great fun are motorbikes with a different engine. Sadly all those who derestrict their ebike are creating the same thing. There will be a back lash. These or derestricted ebikes are, for example, not allowed on FC land yet that where they end up. When there is an accident, such as so nearly caused today that I spotted, something will fly.
There are a few in Weymouth being ridden in town claiming they are just electric bicycles. There will be tears before bedtime.
It needs to comply with all the conditions. If it doesn't it won't be classed as a EAPC / pedelec and will be a moped / motorbike and with it all the usual motor vehicle requirements (and punishments - driving uninsured etc).
1) Bike needs to be propelled by pedalling
2) Motor can only assist whilst pedalling
3) Motor must stop assisting at 15.5mph.
4) Maximum rated power of motor is 250w.
And like most things it'll be ruined by a bunch of halfwits thinking they are being clever.....the other c word is a more accurate description.
6 points and a big fine would wake a few up there!!
“no, **** off to where you’re allowed to ride and stop ruining our local trails.”
Excellent answer. I do hope that the same applies when thinking about riding the push bike on a footpath
I do try to avoid footpaths where possible, or around me if I do ride on them (occasionally unavoidable when linking other trails) I'm often the only MTBer who ever does - I know this from Strava and the lack of any other tyre prints.
There are at least 2 or 3 'sensitive' footpaths near me that I wheel or carry my bike along to minimise erosion.
I would also argue that one (or even a few) MTBer is very different in impact to a group of 10 MXers spinning their wheels in wet bridleways.
You can get a 2013 EXC for £2500..
Slightly unfair taking the cheapest MX bike you can find on ebay/autotrader as an example, you could probably find a 2013 bike in any condition from better than new through to "serviced last year and only 2h use since (Weston beach race)".
Similalry there's what looks like a delivery milage electric one on autotrader for <£6k (and there's been a slew of them as this year's model had a bigger battery).
I don’t think anyone will see a slippery slope from banning/stopping e-MX type bikes or pure motor driven bikes.
For once Mike speaks some sense.
Not exactly someone bimbling round Degla on ebike is it.
I'm not that shocked that people are trying to get stealthy on EMX bikes.
Everyone wants to get away with a little something...
tom in it's ok for me to break the rules but not other people shocker.😉
tom in it’s ok for me to break the rules but not other people shocker
Dunno, but 30 miles today, and afaik only 1 actual (i.e. signed as such) footpath. In 10+ years riding this particular trail I could count on one hand the number of other users I've encountered.
I'd not tell you to **** off on your ebike Stu, but I would a group of MXers.
I’ve ridden KTM Freeride-Es in Austria, there’s a course on the mountain in Zell Am See.
As an enduro bike in itself it wasn’t great in terms of suspension and build quality, but the electric motor is good fun in the power delivery.
I’d not tell you to **** off on your ebike Stu, but I would a group of MXers.
What even if all of us were on a footpath.
Makes you think doesn't it.😛
The simple solution to emotorbikes on MTB trails is that we just make a citizen's arrest and accidentally trash their bikes in the process.
We should definitely not lynch them....
Not really Stu, as riding a bike (or an ebike) on a footpath is only a civil offence.
Whereas riding a MOTOR-bike is a criminal matter.
From Devon & Cornwall police:
You are breaking the law if you ride/drive a motor vehicle on any public right of way other than a road, Byway or approved track.
If you are caught riding or driving a motor vehicle on a Public Footpath or Bridleway you will be issued with a Section 59 warning for using your vehicle in an Anti-Social Manner.
If you are riding or driving your vehicle on a Public Footpath or Bridleway your vehicle must still be insured, taxed and MOT’d so that you are covered in case you have an accident while riding or driving there. If you do not have these then your vehicle will be seized and you will need to pay to get it back
Were they definitely MX bikes not trail or enduro bikes and was it definitely not a green lane?
£10k that KTM ^^
Maybe they’re pricing them out of the e-bike (cycle) market on porpoises..
I guess you haven't seen the price of the S Works Levo, Haibike Flyon, RM Powerplay or Pivot Shuttle then.
Not really Stu, as riding a bike (or an ebike) on a footpath is only a civil offence.
Still not allowed though is it.😚
Always thought about this if you got a KTM E freeride what you might get away with take the number plate of most people will not know its a motorbike then again when you ride one they would be good for the trails they don't rip the ground up like normal endure bikes do but are no where near so much fun plus as said above they cost £10k new and only get 2.5 hours out of the battery you can buy them half price in some shops still new but last years model I prefer the EXCs.
I'm ignoring Stu as he's just stirring 😘
Were they definitely MX bikes not trail or enduro bikes and was it definitely not a green lane
May have been another type of motorbike, though they looked like MX bikes to my untrained eye. Not that it matters one jot.
Definitely a BW, signed at both ends, though one end does lead onto an unmetalled road.
There's miles of unmetalled roads and green lanes around East Devon, but the signage tends to be pretty unambiguous.
Not that it matters one jot.
Well it does. Because one type isn’t legal on green lanes and one type is.
Well it does. Because one type isn’t legal on green lanes and one type is.
Really? Well every day's a school day 😉
So an MX bike isn't legal on a green lane? Why is that? Do trail or enduro bikes cause less damage?
But it doesn't matter in this context, as it was defo a BW.
as it was defo a BW.
I thought you said it was a footpath?
I’m ignoring Stu
Just like you ignore the fact you shouldn't be on a footpath either...
Just to be clear though I have no bother who was on the footpath.🙃
If you're going to try and pick holes, then at least read my posts you numpty...
At least it’s (slightly) better than the group of MXers I met coming the other way on a bridleway last week.
Ah, scratch what I was going to say. **** off and stop trying to troll me.
£10k that KTM ^^
Maybe they’re pricing them out of the e-bike (cycle) market on porpoises..
I guess you haven’t seen the price of the S Works Levo, Haibike Flyon, RM Powerplay or Pivot Shuttle then.
Nope, I’m not that interested in e-bikes TBH.
I think they are a solution to a much wider problem with moving people around the country, but then also think they’re pretty much an extension of a leisure vehicle for a lot of people who are not as active as they’d like to be but still want to enjoy the fun of cycling.
Ah, scratch what I was going to say. **** off and stop trying to troll me.
But you make it so easy when you talk about people riding bikes were they shouldn't while also riding a bike were you shouldn't.🤣
There is no real need for a healthy and fit MTB'er to ride an e-bike on the trails.
Well, you see plenty of fit healthy e-bike riders at QECP having a giggle.
"There is no real need for a healthy and fit MTB’er to ride an e-bike on the trails."
Nah one of the other ebike trolls said it helped him clear 40ft road gaps.
Clearly needed.
There is no real need for a healthy and fit MTB’er to ride an e-bike on the trails
There is no real need for anyone to ride anything on any trail. It’s about enjoyment.
Nah one of the other ebike trolls said it helped him clear 40ft road gaps.
Do you mean me love?
Because you hit the Delamere road gap at way over 15.5mph, so no assistance. And the road gap is only about 8’ high with a 20’ gap.
So about 8 x bigger than anything you’ve ever hit I would think 🙂
Nah can't be you I said 40ft and your mini gap isn't nearly 40ft .
But I can see why you'd get confused.
Well it does. Because one type isn’t legal on green lanes and one type is.
Pedantry. The difference is like trying to argue that an XC bike is a trail bike when not on a race course.
Or that you didn't really get overtaken by a sportscar because a a sportscar is for motorsport, what you were overtaken by was a road car.
What exactly do you call a BMX not intended for racing? Is it just a bike?
Is a YZF with a daylight MOT still an MX bike? What about a WRF that gets its numberplate removed and demoted to field bike? Or a YZF being used for Enduro?
It's a pedantry minefield!
No one really cares about the numberplate or not on the back of the bike. If could be a CR250 or Africa Twin. Some people will resent the presence of either on a legal trail. Has anyone in the history of motorbikes ever convinced a redsock that they should be allowed to share the road/trail by an in depth discussion of the relative merits of 19 vs 18" rear rims?
Not really. People tend to lump in all trail and enduro riders together with mx bikes, and a lot of people don’t realise that you can legally ride green lanes on a fully road legal trail or enduro bike.
If the example above was on a bridleway then definitely yes, the riders shouldn’t have been there.
Years ago I was out on a TRF ride with a few old chaps, as we rode slowly up a tarmac road to join a green lane a pedestrian walking up the road punched one of the riders (60+ years old), then started a full on rant about us riding illegally. We calmly tried to explain the law and show him the legal route on a map but he wasn’t interested.
Years ago I was out on a TRF ride with a few old chaps, as we rode slowly up a tarmac road to join a green lane a pedestrian walking up the road punched one of the riders (60+ years old), then started a full on rant about us riding illegally. We calmly tried to explain the law and show him the legal route on a map but he wasn’t interested.
Precisely.
To the people you're moaning about, the nuances of your bike won't matter. You could have been on an actuall MX bike, noisy pipe and without plates. He'd still have punched him for being there, not what type of racing it may or may not have been derived from.
I wasn’t really moaning, just trying to point out that not all MX looking bikes are being ridden illegally all of the time. The illegal riders ruin it for the legal ones .
Yep, and basically if it's not a green lane or BOAT there is a good chance they should not be there and some of these bigger e-motorbikes are going to make this more contentious. Having seen the mess made when I lived in Rossendale and the fact I have to do the shoulder tuck far too many times around greater manchester to get through the motorbike gates make me have little sympathy.
You should have no sympathy for the illegal riders, but maybe a bit of the “live and let live” mentioned somewhere above wouldn’t hurt for the genuine trail riders
Here’s my TRF gang tearing up the trails.
Back in the general direction of the original topic, there were a couple of what I assume were e-motorbikes on the trails at Gwydir Bach (Marin as was). No idea what they were (not familiar with the acronyms above) but they had headlights, and you could hear the revs. Also riding the wrong way up the downhill bits.
Here’s my TRF gang tearing up the trails.
Two stroke, number plate horizontal, you're little better than MX'ers 😉
BAAARRRRpppppppp
"The illegal riders ruin it for the legal ones ."
Oh the ironing just a few weeks ago you were talking about your derestricted ebike and how the rules were silly.
Oh the ironing just a few weeks ago you were talking about your derestricted ebike and how the rules were silly.
Now you’re just telling lies you melt.
I’ve never said my ebike is derestricted, I did say that the 15.5mph cutoff feels a bit low for my kind of riding sometimes as I’m often above that.
No, my ebike is still restricted and always will be, much like your riding skills.
Two stroke, number plate horizontal, you’re little better than MX’ers
That’s so you can read the plate when I’m on the back wheel 😉
No, my ebike is still restricted and always will be, much like your riding skills.
Battle of teh TITANS!!!!
An e-bike is restricted to <15mph, motor is restricted in power and, most importantly, its pedal assisted.
So if the speed and power are appropriately limited, the only thing that sets them apart is turning the pedals on an e bike. You can set up an e bike so you literally only have to turn the pedals around to engage the motor, so it's an e motorbike in all but name. When the distinction is so small, I think the opportunity is opened up for people to start arguing they should be able to ride limited e motorbikes at trail centres.
When the distinction is so small, I think the opportunity is opened up for people to start arguing they should be able to ride limited e motorbikes at trail centres.
The limits of current tech get you there, the motor has a limited power (max 250 watts) so you need to put in a proportion of the effort, if you run the motor flat out you will drain the batteries you can carry, add more batteries (stored power is the only variable that you can play with), increase the weight and you see a reduction in the amount of help those watts can give you.
colp
...No, my ebike is still restricted and always will be, much like your riding skills.
You've obviously never seen trail_rat in a race.
250W (depending on the rider) still puts someone of borderline overweight bmi into the realms of 3.5-4W/kg even when they put zero effort in. Couple that with a 500Wh battery and you're probably good for 3h of trail riding as long as you coast the descents.
I suspect it would be a bit pants though, mountainbike trails tend to be much much tighter and generally steeper because we have bikes that weigh sod all and can shift our weight to be inches off the floor (and offset to either side), if you stuck a set of footpegs in the BB and fitted bmx bars it'd be almost as slow and cumbersome as a motorbike.
“as slow and cumbersome as a motor bike”.
Any reasonably modern trials bike certainly isn’t cumbersome and not that slow cross-country either. In fact, they’re the antithesis of cumbersome.
Any reasonably modern trials bike certainly isn’t cumbersome and not that slow cross-country either. In fact, they’re the antithesis of cumbersome.
Ok. Slow and cumbersome is a bit of an extreme description, but a motorbike isnt as quick down a downhill track as a mountainbike, plenty of magazines have tested that theory over the years. It just comes down to the motorbike not being able to make any use of the power, because the sorts of trails that are fun on a mountainbike generally don't have straight bits to use it on. MBUK (I think) even tried it with Dave Knight at Fort William, which is a pretty open and rough track.
A trials bike could be the best thing since sliced bread, but an mtb has in essence footpegs that can vary from 12" off the ground to 5", which is a pretty cool party trick when going round tight corners without an engine.