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having now read the links....
US forest service state.
There are two basic types of e-bikes, pedal assist and throttle twist. On pedal assist e-bikes, the motor does not have to be on the entire time the bicycle is being ridden and can be activated by pedaling to augment human power.
but then conclude
E-bikes have a motor and are therefore self-propelled
if you have to pedal it's not self propelled. no?
American e-bike/pedalelec rules are not the same as EU, so not directly comparable to here.
Current US street legal limit is 750w output, and 20mph cut off, although there is a loophole that allows up to 28mph.
https://www.electricbike.com/28mph-legal-strategy/
Re. the OP, we already have a sensible set of [url= https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules ]rules[/url].
With regard to whether an E bike would be faster, well probably not for me on almost all my rides, and those where the extra power would really be nice I may well need to carry so :(.
I think for people that are limited by their fitness or age, it's a fine idea for getting about. I would've considered one on a cargo bike or trike for carting the kids about as my wife would not fancy it unassisted and loaded up, but we bought a car so I don't have the £££s, again, :(.
15mph could well be too fast in a number of situations, but then again I can pedal a lot faster than that in a lot of situations without assistance, similarly a 20 or 30mph speed limit can be inappropriate for motor vehicles - you can't legislate for everything, in this case you're just saying if you want to be powered faster get a license and insurance.
TurnerGuy - Member
TurnerGuy - Member
easy to derestrict though
And then it's illegal in the UK, unless on private land
Yes, but when did that stop anybodyExcept when you have an accident you could open yourself up to a world of liability if the other party notices your illegal form of transport.
And any liability insurance you may have on your home insurance will probably be void as well.
I think the chance of that is virtually zero.
About 99% of the population wouldn't have a clue what the law is on this
About 99% of the population wouldn't know what a tuning box is, what it looks like and/or where on the bike it might be.
A tuning box can be removed in about 5 seconds (attaches by means of a rubber band) and the bike returns to normal.
A tuning box can be removed in about 5 seconds (attaches by means of a rubber band) and the bike returns to normal.
Depends on the system used. Some can't be modded - or not without some very in-depth work and knowledge. Some appear designed to cheat the regs as easily as possible. I'd expect those that are easily modified will be under closer scrutiny to limit that for future developments.
From the off - I'm all in favour of ebikes (pedalecs) for lots of reasons. And I've ridden quite a few and liked them.
As most e-bikes are speed limited,
easy to derestrict though
This is what MUST be avoided. De restricting them is selfish and stupid. It could hurt someone, it could land you in trouble but most importantly to me, it could kill ebikes in the UK before they get off the ground properly.
Also, I'm now a Bosch trained ebike technician and whilst it's not 100% certain we know how to look for a de restricted bike and that voids your warranty. £500+ for a motor remember......
Anyway.
I took a Shimano Steps powered bike home the other week. And I Strava'd it. I smashed my ride home time by a decent margin even though most of the time I was way above 25kph. The next day it was blowing a gale and I rode back to work straight into it. It was rather nice to relax and let the bike do the work, I'll say that!
On my way home I decided to see if I could break the previous day's time. With the help of said wind assistance and some luck at the traffic lights I took a huge chunk out of the previous day's time. But I was going for it and I was absolutely flat stick for the whole journey.
The ebike Strava showed lots of personal records going uphill and the following day on my Genesis I set loads of records going downhill, broadly speaking.
As a commuting proposition I could justify an ebike right now I think. But I don't need one so I won't. If people are replacing cars with them then I'm all for it. 🙂
I am not ignorant, they are more alike motorbikes than they are different, the technology allows them to slip between regulations and as such they are marketed at certain people.
have you ridden one?
genuine question because i thought similar until i recently tried a scott E spark, having previously ridden something quite different ~10 years ago.
I am not ignorant, they are more alike motorbikes than they are different,
Did you read any of what has been written above? Or were you being ignorant?
I am not ignorant, they are more alike motorbikes than they are different,
No more alike than a big downhill bike is to an MX bike. Or any bicycle is except for an engine. You still have to pedal them.
You might not be ignorant but you do have a chip on your shoulder.
I'm fairly convinced ebikes are the future of utility cycling but this is what UK cyclists fail to see. They'll have the latest bike and kit, go on regular rides, travel to trail centres and look the part. But as soon as they need to nip 2 miles into town they take the car. This is car replacement. This is what we need to do to reduce traffic levels and emissions etc.
I was dead against ebikes at the start but I've made my peace with them (and ridden quite a few). Open your mind! 🙂
I'm fairly convinced ebikes are the future of utility cycling
Agree.
Not so sure they will replace the car though but they will replace the human powered utility bike, i.e. for people who cycle as a means from A-B rather than for any enjoyment.
I hope they will never be for me as I only ride for pleasure and enjoy testing my own fitness and riding light/nimble bikes. eBikes will be a good challenge and I look forward to coming across them on my climbs though.
Not sure if anyone's already mentioned it but the USA laws regarding e-bikes are far less restricted compared to EU e-bikes.
I remember seeing that 750w 40mph+ e-bikes are perfectly legal on the road in the stats, which may explain why they don't want them on trails.
I can't see how it would enforceable to ban e bikes from trail centres or off road riding.
At least with MX bikes, the sound of the engine gives them away.
Can you imagine a force of rangers at each trail centre roaming around trying to catch people riding e bikes?
Most of the opposition to e-assist bikes comes from people with hypothetical propositions with as much relevance as being attacked by Orcs in the mountains.
The reality is one of those bikes cannot be used at full assist for very long, and you would only want to experience running out of juice once at any sort of distance from the trailhead. They are far too heavy for anyone to want to have to ride one uphill with a dead battery. And bigger batteries are even heavier.
I'm starting to wonder if E-bikes are the answer to my wind problem. 15 mile westward commute home into a seemingly constant 15mph+ headwind. I'm trying to commute at least 2-3 times per week and it's starting to get right on my nerves.
Thing is a 15mph top speed just isn't enough, I can do that anyway without too much effort as it's flat, it's just a chore constantly fighting the wind after a long day at work.
I'm thinking 20 mph will get my journey time down to 40 mins, I can manage that unassisted on a good day as it is so I'm not sure why the speed limit for electric assist is set so low. I reckon if that limit were to be raised E-bikes could become a viable car alternative.
I delivered an e-bike 20 mph for a friend once.
If I had a long commute, I'd shamelessly ride an e-bike.
Want to feel like you're 18 again? Ride an e-bike.
[quote=jameso ]Yes, but most EU-legal systems (ie Shimano) don't add power like that - it's not additional, it's alternative. It can hit either 250w or 15mph max with little input from the rider unless it's really steep
Hmm, 15mph = 6.7m/s
for an 80kg rider and bike combo climbing at a vertical rate of 0.5m/s takes 400W just for the work against gravity, add at least another 100W for all the other resistance.
6.7m/s horizontal and 0.5m/s vertical is 7.5% or 1:13 gradient - steep, but not incredibly steep for off-road.
Most of the opposition to e-assist bikes comes from people with hypothetical propositions with as much relevance as being attacked by Orcs in the mountains.
In true STW fashion, this thread de-railed almost instantly. The OP specifically referenced [b]US[/b] Land Managers policy documents relating to "trails" and then just about everyone else started waxing lyrically about how great they are for utility cycling on roads in the UK!
Anyway, my point is that in some areas of North America (I live in Vancouver), e-bikes are a 'problem'. Specifically, North Vancouver (you know, the original 'North Shore') is right on the edge of a huge urban area which means lots and lots of people use the same trails (hikers, dog walkers, mountain bikers, trail runners). Mountain bikers are already considered renegades by many NIMBY-types and illegal use of e-bikes is not likely to help get more trails built or even maintained as political pressure is applied. And yes, the majority of trails where I live are deemed 'non-motorized' and that includes e-bikes.
Of course, there are other trails which do permit motorized use and e-bikes are fine on those. Personally, I think the USFS and BLM have made the correct decision - yes, you can ride e-bikes on trails on their land but only on those trails where you can ride MX bikes (or ATVs or 4x4s).
Re: commuting - I'm trying to hold out for as long as I can. It will be a sad day when I'm so old and infirm that I have to 'cheat' and use an e-bike to get to work 😆
(Though I am sometimes secretly envious when an e-bike flies past me uphill...)
i have no problem with e bikes on trails. I'll get one when i'm not fit enough to ride trails myself. I saw loads
in Europe this summer generally with old guys on them.
I also spent a few days road riding in Spain in the Val D,Aran just across the border from Luchon and it has a great network of trails but no lifts. You could see e bikes being used to promote usage without investing in lifts.
As for the power thing should we ban Julien Absalon from the trails or heaven forbid if Chris Froome took up mountain biking.
He started out mountain biking, that's why he has such superb bike handling skills 🙂heaven forbid if Chris Froome took up mountain biking.
No more alike than a big downhill bike is to an MX bike. Or any bicycle is except for an engine. You still have to pedal them.
You might not be ignorant but you do have a chip on your shoulder.
I'm fairly convinced ebikes are the future of utility cycling but this is what UK cyclists fail to see. They'll have the latest bike and kit, go on regular rides, travel to trail centres and look the part. But as soon as they need to nip 2 miles into town they take the car. This is car replacement. This is what we need to do to reduce traffic levels and emissions etc.
I was dead against ebikes at the start but I've made my peace with them (and ridden quite a few). Open your mind!
I agree. Spot on. More ebikes = fewer car journeys + more bikes out and about, more people to support utility cycling, safer roads, etc, etc.
We look at the NL and think 'if only the UK was flat'.... Well with ebikes the topography of less of an issue. I don't ride one but I can see reasons why I would.
they are getting more popular on my commute and there are a few that perhaps dont really need them and only have them to get to their destination quicker.
speaking for my own situation, I 'need' to get to certain destinations more quickly than I can ever manage unassisted (see my prior post upthread). Time is an issue for me and prefer to cycle than drive. Assumedly this is true for others. Of course - 'need' is the key word here, I could simply drive, or pay someone to free me up more time...
We are blessed locally with some really good shared use routes, there is however an issue with the plastic hat hi viz type of ****spanna cyclists riding in an inconsiderate way and posing a hazard to others.
Classifying electric motorised bikes as bicycles just adds to this problem and risks extra regulation of pedal cycles by association with motorised bikes.
Motorised is a motorbike, pedal is a pedalcyle, the Americans have it right.
I wonder how many of these purists opposed to e-assist bikes actually ride to the trails?
I'm not opposed to motorised bikes, I think there bloody brilliant things let's have loads of them on the roads though not where people may be walking.
Driving to trails- well it's a bit of pointless question but the only trails I drive to are150 miles away, when I get there I stop the car and use a bicycle or walk.
I suppose if privately owned trail centres want to allow them and it helps people with ailment that's fine but not in a shared space or national parks please.
wilburt - Member
...I suppose if privately owned trail centres want to allow them and it helps people with ailment that's fine but not in a shared space or national parks please.
I doubt anyone would bother with one unless they felt the need. If you're doing a lot of climbing the battery very quickly runs down, and if you're not fit then you're not going to like what you're left with once the battery is flat, especially if you have gone some distance from the trailhead.
The 250 watt limitation doesn't really add up to more than what a fit rider can put out on a climb, and the speed restriction means absolutely no advantage on a descent. So if trail damage is an issue, we should also ban fit riders. If weight of the bike on the trail is an issue we should also ban DH bikes (similar weight) and also fat riders.
An e-assist bike has no throttle - you have to actually pedal the thing for any assistance.
I'd agree that any bike with a throttle is a motorbike though.