I was surprised when I compared two rides at Swinley in the past few weeks, first on the HT, not having a clue where I was going and referring to Trailforks in addition to the markers - average speed 6.8mph
Second ride yesterday on the Kenevo, blasting round, not needing a map (albeit I seemed to cut a bit out somewhere) - average speed 8.9mph.
Thought it would have been a bigger difference tbh, but there could be other variables
Incredibly subjective test on relatively flat trails in unscientific shocker!
You were expecting...? 🤷🏻♂️
You were expecting…? 🤷🏻♂️
A less arsey reply? 🤷
only quicker uphill. IME everywhere else slower
Too many variables, i tend to find not many ebikers, myself included go anywhere near top speed, you kind of settle for normal speed with eco or eco+ to get you there.
To go faster you usually need something to push you, if i'm in FoD i'm just doing fire road climbs to get to do the trails, so nothing pushing me, more the opposite, i'm managing the battery more than trying to go fast. If i am being pushed, then i can go into active mode (3rd of 5 modes on a giant), which is just flying, but i do need to be chasing someone to use this, as i'm always eeking out the mileage on that one charge!
If you're newish to ebikes then you may be still working out the best mode vs cadence for each terrain, that can take a little while, and as above, you have to fight off going into autopilot, i'm completely different on my normal full susser, you feel the change in speed way more, as well as any drop in your performance, the issue i find with ebikes is that sometimes there is just a little too much gap in performance with the settings, so you go up one, and suddenly it's miles easier.
average speed 6.8mph
average speed 8.9mph
I suspect you're thinking about this in terms of only being a couple of mph quicker. Better to think of the ebike ride as being 31% faster
I've had the e for 2-3 years. I've never really compared rides tbh, was just with this one being the same route, same conditions within a couple of weeks I'd have a look
Not looking for anything scientific, just curious if anyone did regular routes on both and how their average speeds compared. No dramas
I do use it in eco (20%) most of the time though
Better to think of the ebike ride as being 31% faster
Yeah, good point
I’ve hired a couple of times, the last time was last year at the Golfie. We did multiple laps, maybe 8-10, in the day. On my own bike I probably would’ve only managed 2 or 3.
I find they get me up big hills much more efficiently than my unfit legs can manage on their own and actually make the uphills fun.
Tidworth on the kenevo with a 500w battery is 15 runs in 90 mins, about 3000ft. I'm knackered at that point so rarely use the 700w.
I used to push up maybe 8 times over a much longer time period.
Don't ride an eBike but how can you average 8.9mph when you get assistance up to 15.5mph. The motor will keep you at 15.5 on flat and uphill and downhill you can go faster than that so you should be averaging over 15.5mph shouldn't you?
you should be averaging over 15.5mph shouldn’t you
Only if you don't brake for anything, surely?
The motor will keep you at 15.5 on flat and uphill
Sort of/sometimes ...It will easily on the flats if you want it to,ie if you pedal quickly enough. It's the same for uphills,but some uphills can be too steep to hold 15.5mph even if pedalling furiously .
A lot of people forget that there are two main limiters built into ebike software, the 15.5mph speed limit for the motor,plus the 250w nominal power output limit. So if the hill needs 500 watts to go up it at 15.5mph,but you can't manage more than 100watts with the pedals then the most you will get is 350w (100 watts from you plus 250w from the motor) which equals a speed lower than 15.5mph
Riding an SL & having the settings the way I run them, Eco is slower than my leg bike on an average 25km/1000m vert ride, Trail is about parity & Turbo is similar to your experience, so about 30% quicker (on the flat and the ups).
On the downs, current one is a smidge slower, but previous full fat eebs have been noticeably not as quick (or as fun).
On a 'normal' sort of xc route, compared to an unpowered bike, I'm a bit slower on a Decoy but a bit faster on a Levo SL (the latter not feeling like a brick after the limiter cuts out and quicker up the hill). Heart rate will be a lot lower on the Decoy. The bigger difference for me, and the reason I bought an bike, I'll do an extra 500ft of climbing every hour on either bike when playing in the woods, and get about 30% more runs in through the trees.
On the Decoy, I can let the bike winch up the climbs and use them as recovery, on the Levo SL I'll put as much effort in as a normal bike, but be faster on the climbs and maybe a bit faster on technical, longer trails back down where there's some pedalling. Heart rate will be the same as an unpowered bike.
I've only had the Levo for a month or so and I'm only going to keep one, but can't decide which. The Levo feels like me on great day, every time I use it, and it is very poppy, just like an analogue bike - I think I prefer it. The Decoy is a different thing altogether - lots of support, but doesn't feel anything like as playful and just ploughs through everything....
A lot faster, in my single ride experience. Faster uphill, faster on the flat, especially if It's flat wet grass/moorland & no slower downhill.
I did a ride on a Trek Rail 7 with 2 mates who are waaay faster than me on standard bikes & I was waiting for both of them most of the day. Swaledale, so reasonably hilly.
I 'measure' my riding effort by climbing, on a regular bike when I'm in good fitness I can climb 5000ft over 6-7 hours (with a decent lunch break!). On my ebike with two batteries, I can ride 9000ft in 6 hours. So almost twice the climbing per hour. I have once managed 12,500ft on an ebike in 9 hours (two batteries and charging one mid ride!), I couldn't possibly do that amount on a regular bike.
The ebike definitely works more effectively on steeper climbs, I'll manage nearly twice the riding on a steep hill in Wales, but somewhere flatter (eg: Woburn), I'll only manage about 50% more in the same time.
A less arsey reply? 🤷
Made me spit out some tea.
Never ridden an ebike but having ridden alongside them, it's only when there are hills that they seem to be a real advantage (and a big one).
From memory, there are only a few sustained inclines at Swinley?
only quicker uphill. IME everywhere else slower
This! The 30-odd miles to my mam's is slightly downhill, I can do it faster going there on an unassisted bike than on my Tongshenged bike. Coming back's a [i]very[/i] different matter though...
I found that the best advantage for me was not holding my healthy cycling buddies up. Could climb at a sustained pace and it helped a lot up very shallow inclines as well as steeper climbs. My average speed was no different from my days of healthy cycling. The biggest benefits for me were:
- Cycling for longer distances
- Mental health because of maintaining my normal activities
- Shorter recovery times
I have had a Levo SL for almost 2 years and took it to Glentress on Sunday there for the first time. I wasn't going for any speed, and am a bit rusty technically so it was safe and steady. I parked at bottom, did full red and then looped back up the red to join the blue descent from the fire road to Buzzards Nest and then rode blue back to the bottom. Ride time was 1:35. Back in the day on a regular bike I would have been about 2 hours for that I reckon. The most noticeable bit to me was base car park to top of Spooky Wood, which took me about 35 mins, with my HR sitting just below threshold (I have heart issues) most of the way up. In the past, and before I knew that I had to keep my HR below threshold, the same ride would have been close to an hour from memory.
Can I ask a (possibly stupid) question?
Do ebikes have speedos? Basically can you see how fast you're going on the display?
“ Do ebikes have speedos? Basically can you see how fast you’re going on the display?”
I think some of them do. My Levo doesn’t, it just has a little panel on the top tube with ten LEDs for the charge level and three LEDs for the modes.
Do ebikes have speedos? Basically can you see how fast you’re going on the display?
You certainly can if you run a Garmin or similar GPS / computer. Stand-alone displays vary I guess.
Imagine if you could average 15mph everywhere. I think kerley's thinking of a motorbike that could keep you at 15mph up all the hills. I have to pedal my ebike, funnily enough!
Plus average speeds an all that - for roadies innit? Ebikes are about F.U.N.
Plus average speeds an all that – for roadies innit? Ebikes are about F.U.N.
They're also a BRILLIANT WORKOUT!!!!
Most of the obvious ebike laps that pop up on Strava round my way (hilly) are slower than the fast XC guys - normally around 11mph or so average. Hovering around the 15mph threshold would require the rider to put a similar amount of effort in as they would on an unpowered bike, and I'm not sure that's why they bought them.
My Turbo Levo has a TUC digital display for the speed and other things on the top tube control unit.
Im told its backward compatable for Levos and Kenevos
Thanks for answering my question. I imagine it might be fun trying to keep above a certain speed uphill, a bit like that movie where they had to keep above a certain speed. What was that called now?
Hovering around the 15mph threshold would require the rider to put a similar amount of effort in as they would on an unpowered bike, and I’m not sure that’s why they bought them.
I guess some days you'd want to use them to take the burden off your legs and some days to pack more distance or descent into the same time - but I wonder if it's psychologically difficult to push yourself quite as hard when you don't HAVE to?
I suppose some people might go flat out on them up and down for a laugh, but the main temptation for me would be to ride stuff I'd normally be off and pushing on, or to get more mileage/descents into a day. The bloke zipping up Gatesgarth Pass on Saturday was certainly enjoying it more than I was. 🙂
I don't have an e-bike, but that never stops stw replies.. Anyway riding at steep up/ steep down, lapping trails places, the e bikes do 3x the amount that I do.
Local undulating and short/sharp up/down technical trails (with some flat ish bits inbetween) I can get about 50% more distance in, in the same time on the eeb in middle trail mode.
For trails with more elevation I reckon it rises to 75-100% (so getting on for double)
However the amount of energy in the battery becomes the limiting factor at that point, knocking it down to eco let's you get a lot more elevation in overall, however it slows down the rate of progress and you need more time obvs.
They’re also a BRILLIANT WORKOUT!!!!
Zaktly!! Like a Peleton Bike you can go outside on! 😆
Imagine if you could average 15mph everywhere. I think kerley’s thinking of a motorbike that could keep you at 15mph up all the hills. I have to pedal my ebike, funnily enough!
Yes you have to pedal it but you hardly have to try to stay at 15mph do you unless on steep hills. I have paced an eBike rider doing around 15mph on a 3 mile mostly uphill gravel road and while they were pretty much just turning the pedals round I was going as hard as I could just to stay with them.
“Yes you have to pedal it but you hardly have to try to stay at 15mph do you unless on steep hills.”
When you’re in max assist the motor can average 250W continuously (and peak at about 600W) so yes, it’ll pull you along fast until the gradient / drag is too much for it. Commuting around Brighton I average around or over 15.5mph by pedalling past the motor on the flat (unless there’s a bad headwind) and working hard to keep it as close to the cut-out as possible on the steeper hills (and obviously going fast downhill).
Riding it like that on trails is really intense - you find all this corners on the uphill sections that you never noticed on a normal bike. It’s actually more relaxing riding my singlespeed hardtail than riding the Levo like that! But you can chill on the Levo if you want, which the singlespeed doesn’t allow uphill.
it’s only when there are hills that they seem to be a real advantage (and a big one).
This is the fun of e-bikes for me. There's a hill on a route I used to do frequent which is just a solid winch bottom to top, and while I can do it on the regular bike, the one time I hired an e-bike; I did it twice. I'd never do that at all on a regular bike.
I don't really care if they're faster, They're joyous on hills.
Yes you have to pedal it but you hardly have to try to stay at 15mph do you unless on steep hills.
Mine is a half-fat hardtail, and I'm a shagged out heap, so maintaining 15mph on mine even on road hills is almost impossible. I got left behind by a roadie up the back of Butser Hill on the Southdowns.
I rode a full fat Orbea in Spain up some techie and bashtracky type trails and no way was 15mph up proper mountains possible on there either.
So [i]maybe[/i] there are [i]some[/i] situations where it's possible for [i]some[/i] riders. But I don't reckon there's many.
And saying they're an advantage on uphills is just so bleedin obvious. They have a motor!
E-bikes will also be faster downhill and on the flat too. You're not as concerned with heavy, draggy tyres and heavy stuff in general with an ebike, so they'll generally be more capable downhill and have more momentum when going downhill too. If you make a clockwork bike to the same spec, YOU and IT will be slower on the flat. As such, we build with a compromise to minimise weight and drag without losing too much performance.
For an e-bike, who cares about GX vs XX1?, Who cares about 400g on your wheelset, who cares if your tyres weigh 300g an end more? The only thing it will alter is range and perhaps on rare occasions speed uphill, but nowhere near to the same extent that it would be felt were YOU the one providing the energy.
Ebikes are faster uphill and on flat sections, especially if technical terrain. They are as fast downhill as well, comparing similar with similar.
And saying they’re an advantage on uphills is just so bleedin obvious. They have a motor!
I know it's obvious, but the OP was asking about his rides on the UK's second-flattest trail centre (after Thetford).
E-bikes will also be faster downhill and on the flat too.
That's not my experience (anecdote/data etc etc). On the flat I just rode at my normal pace, but with less effort, and on the D/H I was still crap, I was hoping that all the talk of the CofG being low down and the suspension working better would magically transform me into Steve Peat's twin, but alas, I still crashed on the edge of a rut.
Had a hoot though, which counts for a lot in my book.
I think I have been riding ebikes for about 5-6 weeks now and on the 2nd bike (1st Bike 1st Gen after 1st ride liked so much bought a 3 month old model). Since having an Ebike no ride is too much no more pushing bike up steep hills, literally every week or the last 2 I have broken my personal distance records which was previously 17 Miles in about 4hrs with stop off. Sunday was 19.10 Miles 2.42.07 with just a few coffee breaks for me money well spent and I am back riding regularly.
I guess some days you’d want to use them to take the burden off your legs and some days to pack more distance or descent into the same time – but I wonder if it’s psychologically difficult to push yourself quite as hard when you don’t HAVE to?
They're actually brilliant for recovery rides if, like me, you live somewhere proper hilly. You can even, if you have a Levo, use the BLevo app to set a target HR with the bike automatically increasing and decreasing assistance to keep you as close to that level as possible. I guess if you were determined to do huge miles at a low-ish HR, it might be ideal, maybe.
If I want to ride at high intensity, I use a normal bike. You can go hard on an ebike, particularly at lower assistance levels, but if you're lowering assistance to make the thing more like a non-assisted bike, what's the actual point of riding an ebike.
"but if you’re lowering assistance to make the thing more like a non-assisted bike, what’s the actual point of riding an ebike"
For me it was that I don't have the space for more than two MTBs, but I like having an e-full-sus (best commuting device ever!) and I like having a hardtail. So the normal full-sus had to go, which means the electric one has to be a rather heavy normal full-sus as required. The hardtail is now a singlespeed for added eccentricity!
They’re actually brilliant for recovery rides
This is totally true. One of the best things about them (for me) is still being able to get a ride in if you are feeling a bit tired / not really on it.
If I want to ride at high intensity, I use a normal bike. You can go hard on an ebike, particularly at lower assistance levels, but if you’re lowering assistance to make the thing more like a non-assisted bike, what’s the actual point of riding an ebike.
For starters I am on a lower powered bike anyway, and yes I turn it down more. For a few reasons:
- I want to work when out with others, so make it a bit harder.
- I am happy to ride further to do more trails, rather than faster & be done in 2 hours. I can get 2000m vert quite comfortably & it takes the edge off enough that it’s not the same as doing a 2k day on a leg bike (which requires a bit of planning, food, water, etc).
There are times I still rode it in Turbo too.
If I want to ride at high intensity, I use a normal bike. You can go hard on an ebike, particularly at lower assistance levels, but if you’re lowering assistance to make the thing more like a non-assisted bike, what’s the actual point of riding an ebike.
But I thought it was common knowledge that "you get just as much of a workout on an ebike"? Or have people stopped saying that now.
😉
But seriously, I might get one as my next "big bike" in the coming years, and part of the appeal is what I've heard people call the "power hour" - getting a ton of riding done in a short timeframe, zipping up steep climbs etc.
The other part of the appeal is indeed recovery-style rides, exploring and covering ground easily.
But I thought it was common knowledge that “you get just as much of a workout on an ebike”? Or have people stopped saying that now.
Not as much of an aerobic work out but I'm definitely stronger and more able to push a slightly higher gear on my normal bike since I got an ebike. I think that's because I'm more likely to go for a ride if it's windy or I'm tired than I would be otherwise, so I'm riding more and getting more excercise as a result. Not having a car helps with that too mind!
My e-bike usage tends to be quick blasts after works, so I tend to boost and pedal like f*ck. At the Golfie, so fireroad / steep climb and very little pedaling on the way down. I would say I'm easily twice as fast over the course of a ride.
But seriously, I might get one as my next “big bike” in the coming years, and part of the appeal is what I’ve heard people call the “power hour” – getting a ton of riding done in a short timeframe, zipping up steep climbs etc.
The other part of the appeal is indeed recovery-style rides, exploring and covering ground easily.
Addition to this
Out for a ride with my non e-bike mates. Get to the end of the ride, I've still got loads of battery left, I go and bang out a few more runs.
out of interest, those saying that they can ride longer or dont have to walk/push, is this due to not riding regularly enough to improve fitness and strength?
I know from personally experience i can ride harder and longer now than i could six months ago and the same six months ago to the previous six. Mainly down to regular rides, zwift and beasting myself a couple of times when out.
Genuine interest.
I have a Slash and a Rail
Both brilliant
Rail great for banging out laps at lunch, towing kids etc
once gravity takes over its very capable so settled with the extra weight and grip.
I only really ride it in emtn bike mode which gives load of torque and assistance. Normally do different climbs which I cant do on the Slash etc.
Get to the end of the ride, I’ve still got loads of battery left, I go and bang out a few more runs.
That was me on a normal bike just a couple of years ago. And sometimes arriving early for a couple of sighting laps as well.
Do you ride a full fat eeb with people on normal bikes?
out of interest, those saying that they can ride longer or dont have to walk/push, is this due to not riding regularly enough to improve fitness and strength?
I don't know. But the one of the things that I learned from not being able to ride for around 18 months - long covid - is that mountain biking is, in relative terms, really hard work if you're not fit. More weight, more rolling resistance, more necessity to go anaerobic and recover regularly. As someone who's never really stopped riding, I used to think that e-bikers and occasional riders were simply lazy. Now, even though I'm close to normal again, I can appreciate that if you don't have the time or motivation to get and stay fit or have a health issue, but still want to ride bikes then an e-mtb makes a certain amount of sense.
I only bought mine due to a health issue. I'd love more than anything in this shitty ****ing world to have my health back and be able to fully enjoy riding unpowered bikes again, but it doesn't matter how "fit" riding an ebike can get me, it's never going to happen. Maybe one day the batteries will be able to power a time machine bike.
out of interest, those saying that they can ride longer or dont have to walk/push, is this due to not riding regularly enough to improve fitness and strength?
I previously rode my regular bike twice a week. Now I do that, plus 2 e-bike rides a week. So my fitness and riding generally has improved.
That poor Kanevo, having to go round Swinley 😂
Do you ride a full fat eeb with people on normal bikes?
Of course
That poor Kanevo, having to go round Swinley 😂
It was fun actually, kept more flow than on the HT
Working away from home darn sarf, so just getting a ride somewhere when I can - it's natural habitat is the White Peak/Derbyshire Dales., with the Dark Peak not far away. It can't have the cream all of the time 😉
Don't forget that on the flat you may well be slower on the ebike. That restriction kicks in and the easy thing to do is just sit there whereas on the normal bike you'll probably be moving faster. Not a huge thing but one factor.
I’m in need of a new full sus, was going to buy a Trek Remedy. You ebike boys are making me think twice…..
Won’t have a massive budget, prob £4k so second hand.
Question though….for those of us who are time constrained, have crap skills but still enjoy challenging terrain….are ebikes poppy enough? I’m not into big gap jumps but don’t mind a small amount of air. Just want to make sure that for a lightweight wimp like me, a 25kg bike will be easy enough to handle (with my lack of skills, so read mm high bunny hops and rubbish manuals!!)
Next up: how riding a motorbike makes you a faster cyclist 😀
“Don’t forget that on the flat you may well be slower on the ebike”
They’re only slower on the flat if running slower tyres or a model that has a lot of motor drag (my second gen Levo doesn’t).
“how riding a motorbike makes you a faster cyclist 😀”
Works for plenty of DH pros! There was this motorbiker called Aaron Gwin…
I only bought mine due to a health issue. I’d love more than anything in this shitty **** world to have my health back and be able to fully enjoy riding unpowered bikes again, but it doesn’t matter how “fit” riding an ebike can get me, it’s never going to happen.
Snap!
Don’t forget that on the flat you may well be slower on the ebike. That restriction kicks in
What's this restriction you speak of? 🤣
I’m in need of a new full sus, was going to buy a Trek Remedy. You ebike boys are making me think twice…..
Won’t have a massive budget, prob £4k so second hand.
I have a YT Decoy Pro 29 in the classifieds at £4K with some tasty upgrades and under 900km on the clock.
What’s this restriction you speak of? 🤣
if you didn’t have the 16mph limit, how on earth did you only average 8.9mph. Were you pushing it down the hills? 😉
a bit like that movie where they had to keep above a certain speed. What was that called now?
Ooh I know this. Father Ted.
@jamj1974 thanks for the heads-up, I’m not in the UK I’m afraid (Spain where it is currently 23 degrees, I like to gloat when I can!)
@jamj1974 thanks for the heads-up, I’m not in the UK I’m afraid (Spain where it is currently 23 degrees, I like to gloat when I can!)
No worries! I’d love some weather like that!