I’d love one, but won’t get one for one good, one debatable, one shallow and one outright silly reason.
1: Too expensive.
2: I’d forget to charge it and the battery would die (I’m looking at you watch, phone, laptop, torch, headphones and tablet).
3: They are really ****ing ugly. Every one I’ve seen looks like an orange 5 that’s eaten all the pies.
4: They aren’t steel hardtails
this thread can’t really be complaining that EMBN posted a video about Electric mountainbikes….. can it?
I’ve some some stupid in my time. But that’s impressive 😆
No it isn't actually. That wasn't what the OP was about (read it) nor is it what most of the thread is about either (which is the same old bollocks - and I wouldn't suggest reading it).
I thought the OP made an interesting point.
I won't be engaging with any e-bike preaching.
DOH!
chiefgrooveguru Member
“I remember back to the early 80s when all the Windsurfing and Surfing mags were inundated with adverts for these new fangled bikes called mountain bikes”
In my old job I remember being quite confused when taking on a client called Surf Sales who solely imported mountain bike stuff…
I'm pretty sure they imported Mistral at the time as well as DaKine and loads of other brands back then (and subsequently a whole lot more).
But yep, MTB was seen as the saviour of surf shops as you could pop in and buy a few bits whereas for windsurfing and new fin or UJ was about all the accessories you'd sell. Boards mag even had a regular MTB supplement. It made sense for importers as they already had reps out on the road, so why not?
I think it did impact on windsurfing to a degree but then the sports diverged enough that it didn't matter.
Back to the e-bikes rants discussion.
looks fun
eJibbing!
Quick question: the legal limit for e-bikes in the UK is that the motor won't provide any assist beyond 15mph, right? Anyone know what the power output (in W) is, generally?
eBikes – a bit like derailleurs.Good for the weak and infirm elderly.
A bit like Uplifts then ?
The ramblers, who are already upset that you’re sharing paths with them, are more upset when you blast past at 15mph than they are when you puff past at 3 (or are pushing). Those same people who are organised, have a history of campaigning for their rights and are local councillors in their spare time.
Regular bikes can already blast past the ramblers at 15mph or greater - flat sections and descents.
They are also slower than a human powered bike if the human is a very fit one which cannot be said for any motorbike.
I don't think any human could possibly keep up with me on an E Bike if it's a hilly course. The turbo mode gives 400% assist FFS.
It was flying up steep off-road climbs.
I was getting KOM's everywhere when I temporarily set it as a regular bike ride. Apart from on the Descents, where I was only mid table!
On a flat course a human could be faster though, because of the 25kph cut off.
There seems to be a real culture in ebike to shout its merits at whoever you can, whenever you can.
Completely agree - everyone who I know who owns one does exactly that.
Not to mention a well-known channel on youtube.
I want an ebike tater. as in potato, warmed on the motor.
I still have a problem with accepting everyone who started mountain biking after I did as they are clogging up the trails, upsetting the ramblers and terrifying horses.
i also dislike anyone who started hiking or horse riding after I started mountain biking because I was there before they decided to clog up the trails.
But what really boils my piss is people who travel from cities into the countryside and clog up the trails, regardless of how they clog up the trails.
however, if I were walking or riding a horse in the woods I wouldn’t consider myself to be clogging up the trails even if I started walking after they did. Or if, heaven forbid, I was visiting from a city
ebikes I couldn’t give a shit about for the simple reason that they move quickly enough to not clog up the trails.
grannyjone
A bit like Uplifts then ?
Surely it's only the disabled who use those.
.
.
.
This forum needs a TIC (tongue in cheek) emoji. 🙂
I don’t think any human could possibly keep up with me on an E Bike if it’s a hilly course.
Literally 10's of thousands of people could beat you on a hilly course on the road. Not one of those people could beat you if you were on a motorbike, which was my point.
Literally 10’s of thousands of people could beat you on a hilly course on the road. Not one of those people could beat you if you were on a motorbike, which was my point.
Plenty off road too. As a feat of human strength, putting out 250w for a couple of hours isn’t exactly the bleeding edge of what’s possible.
Can we merge this thread with every other e-bike thread? Cos it's exactly the same almost word for word.
So many epinions.
I'm saving up for one - look great! Get the climbs out the way quicker!
Surely it’s only the disabled who use those.
And cars. Cars for all journeys including shopping 3 miles away.
I’m saving up for one – look great! Get the climbs out the way quicker!
Exactly! I always take the time when I’m riding mine to stop and tell people all the benefits. It’s the least I can do.
I love mine - it really boosted my fitness when I first got it, and got me back into riding non e-bikes. I don’t ride it that much now but it’s always great fun when I do...
Oh, hang on....
Plenty off road too. As a feat of human strength, putting out 250w for a couple of hours isn’t exactly the bleeding edge of what’s possible.
Bollox I was getting KOM's everywhere on the climbs when I temporarily set it as a regular bike ride.
I wasn't relying on a tail wind and I wasn't in any pain or discomfort either! Just a relaxed easy pedal up the hills and smashed the times anyone had ever done it on a regular bike with lots of time to spare. Plus we're talking 3 hours of riding time on turbo on the spec Levo.
BTW I only temporarily set it as a regular bike ride to see where the E Bike would stand up compared to regular bikes. I didn't leave it like that as that's cheating. Not that it would have lasted long anyway - my strava entry would have been flagged. It would have stood out by a mile that I was on an E Bike - KOM's on all the off road climbs, mid table on the descents!
Plus I was getting an average speed of 20kph on a very hilly off road course with Gates!!! Who the hell gets that on a regular bike.
I'm not sure how an EBike works exactly but I think its a constant 250W PLUS the Power I'm putting down as well. It's only downfall is the 25kph cut-off but if its a very hilly off road course then that doesn't become too much of an issue.
You definitely need the right sort of route to maximise the advantages of the EBike though
On Monday I saw a man trying to get an Ebike through one of those V shaped access gates that stop motorbikes but you can just wheelie your MTB through. It took him about 10 seconds to struggle the front wheel up, he than had to engage walk mode which meant he just kept smashing the pedals into the side of the gate. I reckon it took him 30 seconds in total, so does that time get added to strava segments?
^^^ sounds like operator error to me 😜
Bollox I was getting KOM’s everywhere on the climbs when I temporarily set it as a regular bike ride.
Well it's 250W plus whatever you put in. An easy climbing effort is about 200W which added onto the eBike gives you 450W which is pro TdF levels of power, albeit with much more weight.
Relevant, though I'd like to see it repeated with a random biffer off here piloting the ebike...
turbo mode gives 400% assist FFS.
Are ebikes not limited to 250w max? I think that's about the most I'd manage on a hard effort over a number of minutes - if I was doing an enduro stage or going for a Strava segment for example.
So in that case the ebike would give max 100% assist, wouldn't it?
I'd like to add that I'm offended when bike parks with uplifts are advertised to pedal cyclists*.
*I'm pretty sure there is car advertising aimed at cyclists, they definitely have engines.
embn selling the merits of ebiking
Thought it was worth repeating this gem before considering whether this thread is worthy of further consideration
I’d like to add that I’m offended when bike parks with uplifts are advertised to pedal cyclists*.
*I’m pretty sure there is car advertising aimed at cyclists, they definitely have engines.
I like cars, but not any of the cars I've seen advertised in bike mags, which are overweight oversized **** buckets for people who need a car to show people what sort of lifestyle they aspire to lead.
To be fair, ebikes are far better than that. I'd like an ebike (just not an eMTB - but I don't mind if anyone else wants to ride one as long as it's legal). I see the OP's point though. They're a profitable niche (cos people can go "oh, far more expensive but it's got a motor so fine" rather than "oh, far more expensive because all the bolts are made of unobtanium shaving 2.13g off the weight"), but they are being marketed to death - in very much the same way as SUVs/crossovers that the bike mags all seem to advertise, which have their own set of issues - and are far worse but a symptom of the same thing.
It's a broad church, I don't think there's anything really wrong with the ebikes, just the profit led marketing from what, once, felt like an industry that was customer led.
Bollox I was getting KOM’s everywhere on the climbs when I temporarily set it as a regular bike ride.
Not bollox at all. You stated "I don’t think any human could possibly keep up with me on an E Bike if it’s a hilly course." That means an overall ride on a hilly course not just the climbs. Even on the climbs you would not leave a very fast road rider behind and the rest of the ride (the flat bits) you would be left for dead.
For anyone who is “offended”
it will be interesting once they come onto the second hand market to see how long they last for.
“I’m pretty sure they imported Mistral at the time as well as DaKine and loads of other brands back then”
If you’re referring to the early ‘80s, I wouldn’t know, I was still in playgroup back then! I was dealing with Surf Sales etc in the mid ‘00s.
@Kerley:
Even on the climbs you would not leave a very fast road rider behind and the rest of the ride (the flat bits) you would be left for dead.
Seems you didn't watch the vid on relatively flat Dalby above then did you...
Is Dalby a hilly road ride?
Doesn’t look like it.....
Tell you what @Kerley - why not narrow down your parameters even more to demonstrate that emtbs in no way give fat unfit people a mahoosive boost, and that their powerful electric motor is in no way different to leg-power, and they're not, by definition, motorbikes eh?
But yeah, I'll concede that if they get above the ebike limit really fit people can tonk unchipped ebikes. (But they ain't doing that on any really hilly road ride - on a flat one, yep, but not a hilly one.) And as we can see from people on this very forum, removing that limit is a popular old past-time isn't it...
Relevant, though I’d like to see it repeated with a random biffer off here piloting the ebike…
That course is designed for the XC Bike though. Gradual climbs. No proper off road stuff apart from on the descents ?
Try the same test on a proper ride in proper hills. Grassy climbs, rocky uphills and other rough surfaces. Steeper gradients.
The EBike would seriously pull away from the Pro XC rider.
Not to mention the E Bike can sustain this for 3 hours solid. Not just for 10 minutes as seen in the vids.
I'm pretty sure if I'm on an EBike I would be able to beat anyone on a regular bike up an off road steep climb, unless it was beyond my technical ability.
These things seriously fly uphill if you leave them on Turbo mode and put a lot of effort in yourself. Up 12%-20% climbs you can be from ground level to the sky in just a few minutes.
They say that in the video @grannyjone - that if there were proper hills involved the ebike motor would make it a comparative breeze.
That's my experience in the peak - ride a *lot* around there, and I ain't slow uphill. People on ebikes laugh and chat whilst screaming past on the hard climbs. Fat old men riding up the beast (I've only ever seen one person do that on a normal bike - some whippet like 17 year old).
N00b-safety issues asside - all power to them if that's their thing. However, the gripe is we have to read about motorbikes in mags and forums previously dedicated to human powered cycling and we have to listen to ebikers lying to everyone about how great they are for fitness, when they're self-evidently (and scientifically) not...
You don't want to read about ebikes but seem to post on every thread about them.
There's a really simple solution there.😂
Has anyone used the F word yet?
U
N
!
!
!
Many times @DezB - but that's never been a point of contention has it.
(Though ebikers bandy it around like normal bikes, or motorcross, or monster-trucks aren't fun, and only ebikes are - and that's pretty much the shut-down-the-argument justification for everything).
I don't remember it myself but I'm sure someone said there was a similar fuss made when Roadies started posting on the Singletrack forum.
Whist you have all been mumping I've been to Bike Park Wales for a 29th Wedding Anniversary ride. Part of our Alternative Sospel and Finale trip.
Like it or not I've been having fun. I thought that's what riding a bike was all about
[img] 
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[img] 
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Tracey, that second picture is effing superb!!
Thanks, first time we have been. Felt it for all the school kids as it was wet and very cold.
I’ve been having fun
My gosh! I don't believe it!
Though ebikers bandy it around like normal bikes, or motorcross, or monster-trucks aren’t fun, and only ebikes are
Do they?
I don't and i have an ebike.
It's just another type of bike that I sometimes ride.
One thing it isn't though is a motorbike. 😂
Though ebikers bandy it around like normal bikes, or motorcross, or monster-trucks aren’t fun, and only ebikes are
Imaginary offenders are the new offence. Fuelling outrage since even before tabloidism began!
One thing it isn’t though is a motorbike. 😂
You keep telling yourself that m8.
But I'm glad you enjoy it 🙂
After years of racing motorbikes offroad I can assure you an ebike is nothing like a motorbike other than they both have two wheels.
Not once has my ebike tried to kill me for a start. 🙃
an ebike is nothing like a motorbike other than they both have two wheels.
And, errrm, a motor.
Not legally a motorbike, but actually, literally, the very definition of one.
All power to the people exploiting the loophole that allows battery powered motor driven bicycles on terrain that I/c powered motorcycles are not allowed on, though. Looks great fun.
Not legally a motorbike, but actually, literally, the very definition of one.
...motor driven bicycles
Just to be clear, and we’re talking about literal physical objective definitions here...
...just to be clear...are we dispensing with the distinction between ‘assist’ and ‘driven’ now? Not ideologically, not hyperbolically, not ‘in a manner of speaking to all intents and purposes’. I mean literally. Are you categorically claiming that there is no physical distinction to be made between ‘motor-assist’ and ‘motor-driven?’ Between pedelec and motorbike?
All power to the people exploiting the loophole that allows battery powered motor driven bicycles on terrain that I/c powered motorcycles are not allowed on
When you say “loophole”
I assume you mean
“the specific legal classification of an ebike, that was made specifically for ebikes to differentiate them from motorbikes, and as such, not a loophole at all”
?
Keep em coming folks! This is great entertainment!.................for a few minutes each night.
are we dispensing with the distinction between ‘assist’ and ‘driven’ now? Not ideologically, not hyperbolically, not ‘in a manner of speaking to all intents and purposes’. I mean literally. Are you categorically claiming that there is no physical distinction to be made between ‘motor-assist’ and ‘motor-driven?
Well, you don't seem to be - considering it was only in 2016 that pedalling was made a legal requirement in ebikes (and then only for over 3.5mph).
So, the pedal-assist is a totally artificial construct. And the amount of power you have to put in (because of the artificial construct, remember?) is minimal compared to the output that the motor gives you.
They're motorbikes. Poorly disguised, but motorbikes nonetheless.
So, the pedal-assist is a totally artificial construct. And the amount of power you have to put in (because of the artificial construct, remember?) is minimal compared to the output that the motor gives you.
You.
Have.
To.
Pedal.
Them.
To.
Make.
Them.
Go.
Let's have a poll. Who thinks ebikes are the same as motorbikes
Yes - chevychase
No - absolutely everyone else
THat's sorted out then.
Why does it matter what an ebike is or isn't?
Just seems to be a too and throw of protecting ones ego, those on the side of "it's not a motorbike" are kind of supporting my point, it seems the default for an ebike lover is that they've got to justify their decision to use one at every possible opportunity, what does it matter as along as you enjoy it? Guilty pleasure?
Then on the other side, ebike haters, why keep on poking the ebike fans? Easy targets? Really that much of a nazi hermit?
It's being outdoors on a toy, does it really matter?
it seems the default for an ebike lover is that they’ve got to justify their decision to use one at every possible opportunity
I don't own one, and probably never will, but trying to say 15.5mph power assisted bicycle is the same thing as a 900cc 200mph motorbike is just wrong and doesn't help any debate about their use, safety on shared paths, need for licences, MOTs etc,. etc,.
^ +1 what Dean said. I don’t get it. Call it a motorbike if if makes you feel better.
They make it possible to climb a steep hill at a third of the speed that you can descend it on a non-assist/assist bike. What’s the issue/risk?
To non-mountain bikers, we’re all a bunch of arseholes - they don’t differentiate, not sure why we are?
+1 what Kerley said. I don’t own one either. Nothing to do with my ‘ego’ either, and for same reasons. Play the ball, not the man etc...assuming makes an ass of you and me!
Presumably most of you remember actual mopeds, the ones with pedals. They don’t need to have pedals anymore but that legal classification covers motorbikes up to 4000W.
So we have standard ebikes, up to 250W.
Mopeds up to 4,000W (I believe this also covers derestricted or ‘speed pedelecs’)
Light motorbikes up to 11,000W.
Standard motorbikes up to 35,000W.
And then any bikes more powerful than that.
Obviously people with quasi-religious arguments will take no notice of this.
But for the rest of us, it’s interesting to note that the big motorbike classification is only nine times as powerful as the mopeds that 16 year olds can ride, whilst the step in power from an ebike to a 50cc scooter restricted to 30mph is sixteen-fold.
When you say “loophole”
I assume you mean
“the specific legal classification of an ebike, that was made specifically for ebikes to differentiate them from motorbikes,
Sounds like the very definition of a loophole to me; a specific exception made in legislation to allow a bike, with a motor, to not have to comply with motorbike rules. Because, y’know, it’s only a little, quiet motor and you have to make a show of ‘pedalling’ to make the MOTOR drive the BIKE. 🙄
I’m not saying that they don’t look great fun, I’d love a go on one. I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be allowed; in all for getting people out and active. I may even get one when I’m older. But I am surprised that people are so keen to argue black is white and say they aren’t motorcycles, in the sense that so is a moped, a scooter and an electric road motorbike. They may be different classes of motorcycle, but they all have a motor and two wheels. A push bike has NO motor, therefor it’s NOT a motorbike. It’s quite simple really. Nowt quasi religious about my point of view, it’s just logical.
“They may be different classes of motorcycle, but they all have a motor and two wheels. A push bike has NO motor, therefor it’s NOT a motorbike. It’s quite simple really. Nowt quasi religious about my point of view, it’s just logical.”
Yes but no. Because from the perspective of how they interact with the planet and everything else on it when being ridden, the impact of an ebike is far more like that of a pushbike than any motorbike.
What something DOES is more important than what it IS.
you have to make a show of ‘pedalling’ to make the MOTOR drive the BIKE.
I have tried an ebike, back when they were called ‘pedelecs’. A Kalkhoff Sahel. It was a compact utility bike. Not sure if it worked the same way as today’s MTB ‘ebikes’ that we are assumedly talking about here but you certainly didn’t have to make a ‘show’ of pedalling. You pedalled and the motor assisted at different levels (3, from low to high)
It had around 70km of range
If you were simply ‘making a show’ of pedalling and the motor as you claim does all the work, then how would it go that far on such a small battery? And when I stopped putting any effort in, the bike also stopped. How is that possible if the motor is the only thing driving it? It didn’t have a ‘throttle’ either. So what it actually ‘does’ is assist my pedalling, no?
There seems to be an ‘either/or’ , X vs Y kind of stubbornness in a ‘logical’ argument that seeks to exclude physical realities such as X+Y=Z
the gripe is we have to read about motorbikes in mags and forums previously dedicated to human powered cycling
So what?
What's the point of cycling? Powering yourself unassisted? Or getting out into the hills, shredding gnar, having fun etc? Cos all but one apply to e-bikes just the same.
“They may be different classes of motorcycle, but they all have a motor and two wheels. A push bike has NO motor, therefor it’s NOT a motorbike. It’s quite simple really. Nowt quasi religious about my point of view, it’s just logical.”
A motor (2 motors, actually) cycle, earlier...
Actual lol at any comparison between even a chipped Ebike and an actual motorbike, i can only assume that anyone who thinks they are similar hasn’t even ridden a learner legal machine, never mind a real bike.
Actual motorbikes need fuel to go (petrol/electric/whatever)
Ebikes can use fuel to assist the riders output, but they can be ridden when the fuel is depleted.
Literally the only thing they have in common is 2 wheels.
I hate to break it to the haterz but if you look at e-bike sales then I’m afraid you’ve lost the argument. Rant as much as you like, but e-bikes are a thing & they are here to stay.
What something DOES is more important than what it IS.
Couldn’t agree more. E-bikes are vastly less damaging to the environment than even low powered IC mopeds (although still not as environmentally friendly as a push bike). But as you concede, they ARE ‘motor’bikes.
they ARE ‘motor’bikes.
‘those’ scare quotes look suspiciously like a goalpost on the move 😉
If it looks and quacks like a duck...right?
Rant as much as you like, but e-bikes are a thing & they are here to stay.
E-bikes yes but when the laws were created they had these in mind.
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But these weren't even considered.
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I think at some point there'll be a relook at e-mtb's and thier use on bridleways and shared off road paths.
Sounds like the very definition of a loophole to me; a specific exception made in legislation to ..
That's not what a loophole is, it's a gap or flaw in legislation that's exploited.
We can call them what we like, it's still just semantics and subjectives. A philosophical debate*. Ebike laws were drawn up to classify a new product type, the product is legally distinct from other 2-wheeled vehicles. There's type-approval formats, definitions in import duties, EN testing, traffic rules, etc.
Call it a motorbike if you want to but from a legal POV there are bicycles, EPACs, S-pedelecs (which are close to or same as mopeds), mopeds and motorbikes.
If you can find a gap in the legislation on bikes, EPACS and mopeds that means an e-bike truly is a motorbike then good for you, you are the new Mr Loophole : )
(*since I like a bit of cod-philosophical debate rather than GAS what others ride, my take on e-bikes is that they're really not the same as a pedal bikes, seen through my own biases. Much of the experience is the same but it lacks a part that's crucial to me. Most E-bikes are pedal-assisted and I like pedalling unassisted unless it's by gravity. Throttle-only 250W-25km/h road legal E-bikes are an odd one, functionally I'd agree they're mopeds but in terms of weight and risk etc -where some of the classification comes from- they seem closer to EPACs and bikes than trad petrol mopeds. All that could make a French VeloSolex an E-bike if it wasn't for the petrol motor ... and then I'd argue that the motor type is only relevant if there's an emissions aspect to the classification - dunno if there is tbh.)
Sounds like the very definition of a loophole to me; a specific exception made in legislation
Yeah, That’s not what a loophole is. But never mind.
But these weren’t even considered.
At 20mph as it goes down a hill that looks no different to the average walker etc than most Enduro or DH bikes that have been around for a long time. Add in a full-face lid and the motorbiker look is complete, whatever you're riding.
(I don't fully disagree with you, but for me it's back to 'dicks will be dicks' rather than a problem with the specific products)
Back to the OP I didn’t think the video was that bad it was just a meeting of minds one evangelical about ebikes Mr Jones and one who’s all about the physical side being part of the experience Henry Quinney. I thought it was an enjoyable bit of tar with a coffee tbh!!
Mobility scooters in a way, aren't they?
Mobility scooters in a way, aren’t they?
1/10. Back to troll school for you.