So I’ve hankered after one for quite a while, a few of my riding buddies have them and they’re ace fun. It’s got to the point where I’m now thinking a bit more seriously about purchasing one.
It’s a wedge of cash, and so I’m very keen to be making the right decision around what to buy (if I buy!).
I’ve not been to demo any yet (I will do) but it would be great if anyone with experience of these things could validate my thinking! Just to give me some reassurance / avoid time going down blind alleys really. Are there other suggestions for bikes I've not considered, or things I have not thought about?
Requirements
In a general sense I’m just looking to squeeze as much fun as possible out of riding, by going further, faster or getting more technical climbing / descending in in the same time period.
Locally around me it is generally undulating no massive climbs but lots of short sharp ups/downs. Lots of flowing singletrack you can ride on a gravel bike. Also nuggets of quite hard tech trails spattered around which warrant a sorted trail bike to ride quick.
So around home I intend to use the E-bike for this general trail riding. I want it to ride as much like a regular trail bike as possible but to be able to either turbo through the boring bits or take as many of the tech up/down lines as possible.
A little further afield I have access to much more gradient and far more technical lines, rock gardens etc depending on where I go. For this type of riding I’m looking for the bike to help me smash through the commute out/back (so range is important - 50-70km), and/or also get me as many runs up/down the hill as possible before heading home.
I’m a lanky git and ever since I swung a leg over one, 29ers (particularly long ones) just felt right - a bike that is in proportion to me (I’m riding in it, not on it) and doesn’t look like a clown bike with tiny wheels. For this reason I am generally drawn to a 29er but also would consider a mullet or 27.5 if it was the right bike for me otherwise, but I’m a bit nervous.
How much it costs is important, I don’t want to spend more than I need to to get good performance. However that being said, I plan to keep the bike for a long time, and in the grand scheme of things I would rather spend £100s more on a bike that was right than make a mistake trying to penny-pinch e.g. by going for a bike with significant componentry compromises.
Of the motors available I think I would prefer bosch performance cx. Supposedly more natural, I like the sound of EMTB mode, and generally they come with larger batteries. Also there is I believe a 2 year rolling warranty on these. Shimano E8000 is a much older motor now, so generally cited as being behind the others.
Being a chunk of cash, and again with my intention to keep the bike for a long time, I want very good warranty and after sales backup. Some bikes have really really short warranties for such an expensive item. It would be really shitty to get a couple of years down the line, for a frame to break (for example), have a manufacturer wash their hands of it and be left with massive expense to fix.
Most likely candiate
Trek rail (Probably 9.8)
On paper this fulfills all my requirements. 29er, bosch, 625 Wh, good reviews for its general all round capability.
Only downside really is that it is more expensive particularly if you want carbon and decent spec componentry (e.g.the Orbea is a similar proposition and cheaper)
Where it wins out however, is warranty. Lifetime on the frame, and lots of very good examples of after sales support.
If I want to save some cash I would go for the top line alloy and forgo the carbon to save £1k.
Others on the shortlist
Orbea Wild
Similar to the trek (29er, bosch 625wh etc) and better value for money
However I am less sure about the support (supposedly lifetime, but some negative stories around)
Whyte e150RS
Gets great reviews particularly around the handling (which is after all what is important)
Bosch and 625wh
Bit nervous about 650b, however great value.
Less convinced about the warranty - 4 years on the frame only.
Mondraker crafty rr.
Alloy one not carbon. (I would prefer the alloy as the carbon non-removeable battery worries me)
Bosch, 625wh and 29er, mondraker known for good geo so ticks the boxes in theory.
Otherwise though it is expensive (more so than the trek if you go for alloy) and I don’t like the bottle position on the top tube.
Long list
Cannondale Moterra
Seems a bit boring / not very agile compared to some others by all accounts, however does have the bosch and 625 Wh.
probably close to being on the short list
Commencal Meta Power
Really attractive looking, great spec and value, but shimano and only 500WH
probably close to being on the short list
Canyon Spectral:ON
Looks absolutely fantastic (best visually IMO), and great value, but not convinced by the geometry, shimano motor or 500WH battery.
Also direct sales - nervous
somewhat close to being on the short list
Merida EOneSixty 8000
Looks good but again like the Vituses, shimano and only 500WH. Less good value than the vituses
YT decoy / Decoy 29
Though it looks great on paper and visually I am very worried by proprietary battery, also direct sales, Shimano, 500 WH. Some warranty horror stories.
Waterbottle also useless
Vitus e Sommet or e Escarpe
Great value and spec but visually gopping with the external battery.
Also shimano, only 500WH and direct sales
No bottle holder which is annoying
Speccy Levo
Good reviews but pricey. Though the brose motor looks good in terms of performance, I’m unconvinced about the motor reliability and conservative geometry also.
Well I won't help you on what bike but you don't need a carbon frame on an ebike until you have to lift it over a gate. You will be far better off with better components.
On the lookout myself for another ebike but cant do with clitoris bikes that every**** has and then posts a picture of it somehow thinking it looks different to to exactly the same bike as all the others.
Looks like you've narrowed it down and know what you are after, i had similar, the E8000 motor is not a bad one, it might be slightly older than the Gen 4 and newer Brose, but it does a good job, it's just unfortunate the batteries are still back in the 500wh range in most bikes with them.
I had similar thoughts, ended up with a cube stereo hybrid 160, 27.5 with Gen 4 and 625wh battery, have already had two rides where i've exhausted the battery, so range wise i'm happy enough, same with DH style stuff, it gets me up the hill enough times to make it worth it.
29" sounds your thing, that Orbea is pretty much spot on, best value for money in that wheelsize and geometry, i went the other way, wanted a 27.5 over a 29, so that was all that stopped me getting the H15, although the specialized are always on the list, was eyeing the 700wh levo comp, but that was over 600 quid more than the orbea, with a slightly lower kit on it.
Re warranty, agree with general logic of looking for decent warranty and support. But your ref to the Whyte only having 4 years warranty I think is unrealistic expectations. I wonder how many of those warranties, particularly when more than 2 years, would truly be honoured. Also, I’d be more concerned about motor and battery warranty than frame, and would guess they’ll be limited to 12/24 months in most cases. Even then like cars the warranty usually assumes beyond 12 months you’ve serviced via approved service centre (focus/Shimano warranty says this).
Anyway, it’s a factor but be realistic about the value you place in a warranty, and how likely it will be needed or honoured. I’d probably be more concerned about how easily you could get support ie LBS vs online purchase. Though I took the view that £800 saved by buying online More than covered me shipping back if I had an issue.
Thanks for thoughts all. I actually only looked at warranty as the last thing when I had got th shortlist down. There are stories around regarding brilliant support from Trek for frames which are very old (not ebikes obvs). They've been running a lifetime warranty for years and seem to stand behind it from the reading I've done. Agree about motor being more likely to break. Bosch seem to have the best setup - 2 year rolling.
I’ve no experience of anything other than Shimano e8000 on a focus jam2. Wouldn’t rule out Shimano, while older also means tried and tested and I’ve not heard many horror stories about e8000 motor failures. Whereas Spesh/brose seems to have had issues.
I had an Orbea Wild briefly and it’s a hugely capable bike, infact way beyond my abilities. I had a horrible simple crash on it, all my fault, not the bike, and after 7 months of rehab I have just bought a Spesh Levo SL. For me the Levo gives a great balance of just enough with a very nimble feel.
My riding buddy has done 8600 miles in 2 years on his shimano E8000 motor, pretty impressive.
I bought the rail 5 (625 watt) and it is 1.6 Kilo heavier than the 9.8 (23.5 kg in comparison to 21.9kg) bear in mind the 5 is £4150 as opposed to the 9.8 £6250-6800 so over half the price again for a bike that is slightly lighter than a heavy bike which when you use it the battery takes the strain anyway.I would really struggle to justify the extra cash on a bike that really lightness does not matter so much. BTW the Rail is a really great bike feels like it can handle anything
Anyone have examples of issues on the new Bosch?
I've got Trek Rail 7 and it's awesome. To be honest it wouldn't be my first choice if I was spending £5-6K, that would be a Whyte E180, but it was as a result of Trek's excellent warranty and CS after I discovered hairline cracks in the lower shock mount on my Powerfly. I took the PF to the shop on a Saturday, they emailed pics to Trek on the Monday and Trek responded with an offer of a replacement frame or huge discount off any new Trek on the Tuesday. Shop had a Rail 7 in the right size and colour so it was a no brainer.
The ally Orbea was on the list too, but it's a bit of a tank (even by eBike standards) and I genuinely think the Rail is better looking.
I would have preferred carbon as it's nearly 2KG lighter but the actual spec of the 9.7 is inferior to the 7 even though it costs more.
Anyone have examples of issues on the new Bosch?
Yes. On Sunday mine threw up the 504 (Tuning detected) error code. The bike goes into limp mode and needs to be ridden for 90 minutes to reset the error. Luckily it happened at the end of the ride. I haven't tuned my bike but it's a known issue on the early firmware. I had the Drive Unit firmware updated and it seems fine now.
falkirk-mark, interesting ideas and would be good to try out the bikes on a real ride, once we can. The hype suggests they have similar overall range, depending on fitness, though I’m a fat bastid right now, but no way the Levo SL would hold a pace on the hills. And as nobeer will testify, I’ll fall off pretty soon on the way down ..
But I’d be fun anyway 😀
Thanks yes, 9.7 definitely looks one to avoid, poor componentry fo sho
PS Whyte e 180 would be too much bike I think, and also only comes in an L (I'd need XL)
Also thank for confirming warranty experience with trek. How old was the powerfly?
23 months and 2500 miles of hard riding in all weather conditions, crashing and general abuse. In that time it had 4 motors (old Bosch), two rear wheels, one front wheel (nothing wrong with it, Trek sent a pair as the replacement rear wouldn't match the front), 1 set of Yari forks (creaking CSU, dealt with by Sprung, not Trek), all under warranty with no quibbles at all.
I'm going coil as soon as TFTuned have Smashpots back in stock and my LBS get a DVO Jade X in on SOR from Windwave to check clearance in my medium frame.
F'kinell! Many of those things obviously not a trek issue.
I was more wondering if it was quite an old frame but they warranted it anyway. Good(?)to hear no quibbles on that amount of work though
Daft question time - what's a "rolling" warranty?
As I understand it, if you get 1nyear into a 2 year warranty and it needs replacing, when you get the new unit the clock resets and you get 2 more years. Forgot where I read it, should probably re-find that to be sure!
OK thanks - so if you have no problems within 2 years the warranty just runs out?
Yep
Are any of these bikes in stock anywhere in common sizes? A lot of them seem to be on pre-order for September when the 2021 models are out
Seem thin on the ground based in where I've been looking, but I've not been fastidious in looking. I'm at the point of nailing options, next thing is to actually committ or not
Indeed, depending on when you looking to buy, stock sounds to be an issue for most manufacturers. Though 2nd hand bargain may start appearing when the weather turns later in the year.
Again I wouldn’t discount to Shimano 8000 motor, it’s pretty damned solid & only a little off the power of the newer Bosch/brose units. There is now a bigger 630w battery available (OEM but aftermarket atm) for externally battery mounted frames, which I do note you aren’t keen on, but thought I’d mention it.
I have the Levo & couldn’t be more pleased, had a replacement motor (1000miles in, I believe the belt snapped) but for all the reports, no one complains about specsh’s warranty service
I have a bike with the Shimano 8000 motor. I really like it.
The Shimano warranty is 3 years on all the electronic gubbins (battery/motor.controller etc).
My bike is a Saracen, so comes from Madison who are also the Shimano distributor in the UK so pretty confident it would get sorted out OK if anything went wrong.
Something to bear in mind is the E8000 is imminently about to be replaced. You do see newer bikes coming with the bigger battery now (Norco Sight for example).
The only one I would consider adding to the list would be that, the only real downside is you have to deal with Evans. I would ditch the Mondraker off as they are terrible VFM, poor reliability & warranty support.
That said however, I have just ordered a Rail myself. I have to wait a little while as it's the '21 bike (July/August) as it fitted the bill overall for me. A massive plus is I race for a shop that has a big Trek supported team & I can get a 9.9 for less than a 5 - It was on the top of my list anyway, but the cost swung it for me, bigtime.
Thanks, I looked for info about when the e8000 would be replaced but couldn't find any. Do you have any idea on timeline? I am not desperate to jump in so it might be worth me waiting to see how the next iteration reviews.
Also a question about motors and batteries - does the interface to the frame meet a standard? Either globally or just within a brand? Just wondering if a motor/battery upgrade is feasible in future.
Nothing to add on the bikes themselves but in general, I’ve had very, very good warranty experiences with both Trek and with Orbea. Both have sorted issues quickly and without problems.
I’ll add that part of that may have been down to a good LBS, so I’d be making sure the shop I was buying from had a good reputation and you could get their easily.
Don't forget the check the Orbea Outlet site. They have some Wilds on there.
Is the Shimano motor due to be replaced though? I’d assumed that shimano’s last announcement would be a new motor, I’d expected one, but no it was new batteries for their current motors.. anyone with any industry knowledge know if this is the case, not just rumours or expectation?
Didn’t realise the Norco Sight had an option for a piggy back battery, very cool. But my concern would be with a Norco, the same as YT or Focus, they’re using in-house batteries, how long are they going to support them for?
I have a bosch powered cube stereo hybrid, 120 fr and rear 29er.
It’s been faultless.
It’s a 2015 model, but bought in 2017, i have changed a few things to better suit me, so it has worked out a bit more expensive, but it’s still a great bike.
No issues with motor or battery, I snapped a chain after a couple of hundred miles but no issues since.
I have read (online, take with a pinch of salt) that there are occasional bearing issues with the motor, due to crap being pushed from the chain, onto the tiny front sprocket and then into the drive side bearings. Hasn’t happened to me, but i can understand how it could, so I’d say the newer bosch motor with the conventional chainring is probably better.
I’ve ridden an older one that had close to 5000 miles on the motor, it didn’t really feel any different tbh, maybe slightly noisier than mine but splitting hairs i think.
Mine is a 400wh battery, I’ve managed to flatten it in 14 miles (offroad, severe climbs)
I’ve also done more than 30 miles on road but only used about 60%.
I weigh about 19 stone, and i was heavier when I got the bike.
I haven’t ridden the shimano motor, or the Specialized one, but I wouldn’t discount either of them, shimano stuff just works, as for specialized, well they are very popular, so you are bound to hear about failures more, but i don’t think they are actually worse on a percentage basis.
I definitely wouldn’t buy mail order, unless it was saving me a couple of thousand quid, just in case i did have a problem with the motor or battery LBS ftw here.
I wouldn’t worry about weight either tbh, unless you plan to lift it over gates a lot.
Finally, the big test for me is “would i buy the same thing again?”
No, I probably wouldn’t.
BUT, that’s because about a year after i got mine I smashed my leg up pretty badly at work and i no longer have full movement in my ankle.
If i was buying again, I’d be looking for a rigid or hardtail, with an integrated battery, so that I could fit a framebag and rack etc to go camping with.
PS:they are chuffing brilliant btw!!
Also a question about motors and batteries – does the interface to the frame meet a standard? Either globally or just within a brand? Just wondering if a motor/battery upgrade is feasible in future.
all motor/batteries supplied from shimano/Bosch/brose have there own standard fittings but motor wise, none to my knowledge can be swapped with a new version of those motors (eg: a Bosch cx motor cannot be replaced with a Bosch Gen 4, and the same goes for Broses 1.3 vs 2.1 motors), and definitely not between these manufacturers. Battery wise I believe only shimano system has been altered by bike manufacturers to use in house batteries, rather than OEM shimano ones (Unless you count spesch, who use their own & not one supplied by Brose)
Experience of the Bosch motor re: issues. A friend of mine has a whyte E150RS and has had the 504 error twice now, both due to impact from falling off (even though the error is 'tuning detected').
There is a three strikes and locked out rule for this code, so he has been in contact with Whyte and indirectly with Bosh to get it sorted/cleared. Both companies have been great with their service and commitment, although Bosch have now admitted there is an issue with the current firmware that throws up this issue so there is an update coming.
I've been looking for an ebike and my money will be going on a Trek Rail 7 eventually, for all the reasons you've stated!
Thanks, I looked for info about when the e8000 would be replaced but couldn’t find any. Do you have any idea on timeline? I am not desperate to jump in so it might be worth me waiting to see how the next iteration reviews.
It's apparently called the EP8 - some (grainy) info here:
A friend of mine has a whyte E150RS and has had the 504 error twice now, both due to impact from falling off (even though the error is ‘tuning detected’).
Interesting. How has he linked the crashes to the error code? Is it just because they happened on the same ride? How long between crash and error code? I had a pretty big crash the day I got my 504 error code but there was at least 30 minutes between them.
The firmware update has been out for a while now, he needs to be on DU version 1.0.3.0 but even that isn't a guarantee of not getting the 504 error apparently.
I ride a whyte e180.
Both the 180 and 150 have been designed alongside Bosch's new battery soon to be released, a 750wh. As told to me by the whyte designer
2021 Trek Rail 9 looks great - new Zeb 38mm fork, Code brakes, super deluxe ultimate rear shock
Hob Nob
Something to bear in mind is the E8000 is imminently about to be replaced. You do see newer bikes coming with the bigger battery now (Norco Sight for example).
The only one I would consider adding to the list would be that, the only real downside is you have to deal with Evans. I would ditch the Mondraker off as they are terrible VFM, poor reliability & warranty support.
Norco was top of my list, but they're not all that well put together it seems, lack of sealing, wobbly cable routing, external speed sensor and a magnet on the spokes - I thin they're one model year away form being really well sorted.
Mondraker was the other brand I was considering, but as above, every Mondraker I've ever seen has had pivot bolts falling out of it, and I'd be very slow to buy an EBike from a brand who can't do reliable pedal bikes.
Thought about Commencal, but smaller battery puts me off. That new shimano motor stuff above is very interesting.
I think I'm just going to hold off for the next generation.
echo a number of the comments on the trek rails above, i've got a Rail 9 and it's a very capable bike. i couldn't justify paying extra for the carbon for bikes that weigh c 50 lbs (having said that my mate has a YT decoy and his definitely feels more lively, but that may not be the carbon frame).
treks warranty is great, my battery self ejected whist riding and scratched up the face plate. within a week trek had sent me the new face plate and provided assurances on the battery integrity. as a side note, the self ejecting batteries is a known fault on the powerflys and the rails and down to connectors in the down tube not being aligned properly. its a 5 minute fix using a T25 ,and the easiest way to tell if you might have an issue is the lock not being in the centre of the key hole on the frame on the non drive side.
have ridden the bosch gen 4 motor back to back with the shimano E800 and prefer the feel of the bosch, also feels like it delivers power better for climbing. i think you'll struggle to get the 70K upper range you are looking for unless its lots of flattish connecting road, hardpack track. i get about 50K max out of mine using eco mode for road work, tour for the climbs and single track and emtb when i'm getting tired, but then i am c 16st kitted up (emtb mode is great btw). also as the bosch system is designed to be modulr it's highly likely they bring out a higher watt hours battery in future that will be backwards compatible
only other comments would be the rail is not a quiet bike, the bosch motor is noisier than i though it would be and i've read reports of them getting louder as they get older. they also suffer from a light rattle when freewheel descending fast on rocky / rooty surfaces, you can replicated it by lifted the bike a foot or two off the ground an dropping it.
i was split between the trek and the YT, but went for trek because of the ease of warranty and UK dealer network, pleased i did
Norco was top of my list, but they’re not all that well put together it seems, lack of sealing, wobbly cable routing, external speed sensor and a magnet on the spokes – I thin they’re one model year away form being really well sorted.
Yeah when I started this thought train I didn't quite appreciate the integration side of things really. I was more focussed on the size & fit, which they have nailed, just the other bits less so.
The Rail ended up being a no brainer really. It's pretty good on the numbers, the 9.8 I rode this year was great to ride, Trek support is good & the Gen4 Bosch motors seem on the whole good (I appreciate they all have their quirks however).
I had been delaying for a while, but with an impending move to a more ebike friendly area with the terrain to support it, I thought jump in. If this was a discussion on the retail prices, the Rail at nearly £10k is a joke however.
Kind of feel like it might end up being my most used bike & i'll be a total evangelist.
Hob Nob
I was more focussed on the size & fit, which they have nailed, just the other bits less so.
Exactly that - geometry wise, Norco, Mondraker and Specialized were the only ones that I'd go for, but I've ruled them all out
Keep your eye out in case the Vitus VRS come back on sale.. I know it is the old motor and 500wh battery but at the reduced price of £3.2k with XT and Fox suspension it is unbeatable value I think.
I think I’m just going to hold off for the next generation.
Thing is, there will always be something newer and betterer just around the corner....
Jump in and get one bought, it's the best thing anyone with an ebike has done
