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lot of people on here clearly never ridden an e-bike. physically hardest ride of the year so far was on an ebike. you don't just sit there with 250W going to the back wheel all the time.
i don't get the 'you'd have to have the same bike' argument either - there're legally defined rules on the bikes' power in each country, to which all major manufacturers stick. if someone wants to ride Brose or Shimano, that shouldn't make a difference, if they stick to the legal limits, and aren't chipped (which, yes, would be something to work out)
why would the bikes have to be the same?
Because someone will always want to win, and in essence they could turn up on a motorbike with pedals. ie a big motor and big battery far better than yours.
Then people sulk and say it’s not fair, next you have homologation rules and an arms race which makes it expensive.
In a normal bike race the engine is you, the more you train the faster you go. Ebike you just buy a better engine
if they stick to the legal limits,
But people wont stick to what’s legal. People never do in motor sport, so then you need to engineers to check equipment
push as hard as you can
I don't think OP wants to do that. 😉
I still really like the sort of loops gorrick put together <em class="bbcode-em">
If it was just this, you could go round the race course on your e-bike after the race has finished (bung a contribution to Gorricks preferred charity). Maybe even bring along a mate on his e-bike....................
Surely if the bikes are fairly closely regulated then the same 20 people in an ebike race will place in the same order as they would have done in a normal race?
The only thing that would change would be the lap times?
Which kind of means its pointless but also hard to object to.
If it gets extra folk turning up at races then it’s probably a good idea??
Especially as soon there will be people with an ebike in the garage but no regular XC bike.
E-bile category
In typo veritas.
"i don’t get the ‘you’d have to have the same bike’ argument either – there’re legally defined rules on the bikes’ power in each country, to which all major manufacturers stick. if someone wants to ride Brose or Shimano, that shouldn’t make a difference, if they stick to the legal limits, and aren’t chipped (which, yes, would be something to work out)"
Rules on power but not on batteries. How long will they last blatting it about in turbo mode?
Very quickly becomes a wallet size contest, or bikes that have easily removable batteries having one per lap and changing in the pits.
If it gets extra folk turning up at races then it’s probably a good idea??
I think that's the logic in discussion really. It may potentially get more people out who ordinarily wouldn't enter.
Very quickly becomes a wallet size contest
In so much as, assuming you're as fit/capable as the next person, the one with the more expensive lighter [s]bike[/s] battery wins? How does that differ from any other sort of racing?
(And as someone who doesn't really do motor racing, I believe fuel/refuel strategy is a big thing in terms of race outcomes?)
There should be an unlimited category. Then you'd get all the lunatics from YouTube with 3kW bikes turning up. It'd be an amazing spectator sport!
That would be genius, big motor bso racing on a technical course.
As long as a category is a level playing field then crack on. Wouldn't make the other categories slower or faster so can't see the harm.
Surely if the bikes are fairly closely regulated then the same 20 people in an ebike race will place in the same order as they would have done in a normal race?
Maybe not. In a regular XC race, you spend much more time climbing than descending, so someone who is 5% behind on climbs would have to be much faster on descents to make up the deficit. With e-bikes, the climbing times will be much faster and the slower climbers will be boosted more than the faster climbers (i.e. the field will be bunched up more). This will increase the advantage of being a good descender and decrease the advantage of being a good climber. On top of that, it may be worth running longer travel suspension and bigger tyres to gain time on the descents, but that will depend on the individual circuit. However, if e-bike racing really did become a thing, then I would expect that the circuits would change to be better suited to e-bikes. I suspect that e-bike racing would evolve to be more like enduro than XC and that more muscular riders might benefit and skinny little twiglets might be disadvantaged.
I believe fuel/refuel strategy is a big thing in terms of race outcomes
Freak results do happen occasionally due to good strategy/luck, but motor racing is overwhelmingly determined by technology, which requires massive amounts of money.
E-mtb's exist so some people will want to race them. But it would have to be in their own class. If it became popular enough you'd need all the different ability and age classes as well. I just don't think the demand will be that great. Exceptions aside I don't see most of the able bodied E-mtb riders being that interested in XC type racing.
It may potentially get more people out who ordinarily wouldn’t enter.
And help them get fit enough to then enter a proper race 😉 😀
I believe fuel/refuel strategy is a big thing in terms of race outcomes
Freak results do happen occasionally due to good strategy/luck, but motor racing is overwhelmingly determined by technology, which requires massive amounts of money.
At the high end (eg F1 before they stopped refueling) the strategy was important, but done with computer models running every possible scenario, not some tactical genius in a flat cap going by a hunch.
In so much as, assuming you’re as fit/capable as the next person, the one with the more expensive lighter
bikebattery wins? How does that differ from any other sort of racing?
No difference in theory, just that the difference is greater.
Someone who has the pockets to run the full race at 250W turbo vs the chap on a budget that must spend most of their time in 50W eco must amount to about the difference between 'fun' winner and World cup winner.
Here, maybe like, there's a market for this. A bit like Karting tracks... buy a fleet of eBikes and rent a nice uppy-downy bit of land - charge people to race the eBikes! Like stag-dos and that to start with.. maybe more serious racers will get interested (like they do with the karting...)
There already is an E-bike world championship isn't there? Not sure if it's UCI affiliated or not but it does exist.
The problem with the OP's idea is he would still lose. The winner would still be whoever could climb fastest (the slowest person would be the person cruising uphill at 15mph using the motor).
Or looks at Motorcross, yes the bikes have 80/125/250/450cc engines, but the rider are still (at the sharp end) very fit because it's the fitness that gives them an advantage.
Enduro seems more suited to the niche of unfit people on e-bikes who still want to race.
Enduro seems more suited to the niche of unfit people on e-bikes who still want to race.
and come last
The winner would still be whoever could climb fastest (the slowest person would be the person cruising uphill at 15mph using the motor).
The aim would be to ride at exactly 15mph everywhere would it not? Apart from any extended open descents where gravity would allow you to exceed it.
You would be at a base cardio level for the whole race from light(ish) pedaling, but would expend much of your energy throwing your weight around into the corners, bunny-hopping roots etcetera. 2 continuous hours of this would be exhausting so would still be dominated by the fit.
Any pedaling over 15mph would be a massive extra energy expenditure for marginal gains and so would be tactically stupid for most of the race (start and finish line sprints excepted); and therefore any drop below 15 due to rider error or cowardice is heavily punished as you must manually exceed the limiter to catch up with your opponents.
and come last
True, a 40lb bike isn't going to be quick. But like the hardtail, or fat bike riders if there's enough of you it could still be fun competition.
The aim would be to ride at exactly 15mph everywhere would it not? Apart from any extended open descents where gravity would allow you to exceed it.
The limiter is 15.5mph and 250w. Most XC racers are going to be spending a lot of time over 15.5mph, at which point its just a heavier bike, but the fittest rider will still win.
OK there may be gradients where the optimum is to put in the minimum effort to maintain 15.5mph is required making max use of the 250w. But anything steeper becomes a case of rider +250w (fittest wins) or anything shallower I'd expect anyone competitive to do more than 15.
Its a race, no one who wants to win will be half assing it.
The limiter is 15.5mph and 250w. Most XC racers are going to be spending a lot of time over 15.5mph,
I wish !
The limiter is 15.5mph and 250w. Most XC racers are going to be spending a lot of time over 15.5mph, at which point its just a heavier bike, but the fittest rider will still win.
OK there may be gradients where the optimum is to put in the minimum effort to maintain 15.5mph is required making max use of the 250w. But anything steeper becomes a case of rider +250w (fittest wins) or anything shallower I’d expect anyone competitive to do more than 15.
Its a race, no one who wants to win will be half assing it.
My last race was gorrick crowthorne. 7.5mph got me mid pack in open.
10mph or thereabouts would be winning expert.
If your race was Sir Bradley against an asthmatic septuagenarian, then rider+250w means the gangly lad will take the win by miles. However the step change in effort to ride at 16 vs 15.5 means that your average joe against average jon where there is, say, a 10% cardio fitness gap, there isnt the physical ability to overcome this step; the tactic is surely to ride to the limiter, or you'll be 30 seconds ahead and collapsed on the floor after 5 minutes.
I did a Scott marathon where we averaged 17.5mph for 85km and 1000m of ascent
I was drafting Nick Craig and Paul Oldham for most of it though. 😉
For the record I think e-bike racing is silly because as all their defenders state, e-bikes are for the old, injured and completely unfit. We'd need about 20 ambulances on standby.
Sorry 😉
I did a Scott marathon where we averaged 17.5mph for 85km and 1000m of ascent
Considering about 98% on here couldn't even do that on the road, i'm not actually sure you're human !
Paul Oldham turned to me towards the end and said “****in hell, have you seen what speed we're doing? I don’t do that on me road bike.”
I was too star struck to do anything more than politely agree.
The idea of XC racing is to compete with others in your category on a mix of fitness and bike handling ability (mostly fitness). Conversely, the idea of e-biking is to fulfill the modern need for effortless gratification and enjoy the reward of descending without having to actually earn it on the climb. I suppose the logical next step would be to receive trophies for your ability in enjoying such effortless rewards.
Alternatively, you can just enter the correct category at a regular XC race on a regular to test your fitness against similar others.
and enjoy the reward of descending without having to actually earn it on the climb. I suppose the logical next step would be to receive trophies for your ability in enjoying such effortless rewards.
Oh you could even let those contending get a lift to the top and everything. Maybe call it down hill. I bet it's completely effortless.
I don't really understnad the naysayers, it would be a different category (probably different event all together if it was popular), it wouldnt affect standard races and you could easily have regs to standardise motors/power etc into differnet classes in the same way they do for one design racing.
It wouldn't be for me (I'm a liability on any form of motorised bike), but then neither is enduro, downhill, road racing, track racing, BMX or four cross and I can see the merit in all of them.
I would be surprised if it didnt happen sooner rather than later in the UK
My last race was gorrick crowthorne. 7.5mph got me mid pack in open.
10mph or thereabouts would be winning expert.
Yes, but the fit rider on the e-bike who sprints off down the one fireroad section at 16mph will still win the race.
It's a RACE, people will get competitive and want to win. You've as much chance of stopping that as you have trying to enforce some sort of gentlemen's agreement in a normal bike race that no one will go above a certain speed or break into a sweat. You've almost invented the cycling equivalent of competitive walking*.
I'm not naysaying that E-bike racing wouldn't work, it can and does work on the continent. I'm saying that the riders involved are probably trying just as hard (and probably just as fit) as those in normal XC, so turning up in your fat lad at the back jersey is still going to result in a DFL if anyone else has been training.
*I am aware that I've basically described Audax, but that's not a race and well beyond the range of an E-bike.
E-bike racing for the rider to ****ing lazy to put a bit of effort in to train.
Yes, but the fit rider on the e-bike who sprints off down the one fireroad section at 16mph will still win the race.
Agreed for 2 riders of equal skill, and you're right, if the serious racers get a hold of this, they'll win the ebike race too.
But after that 1/2 mile fire road where someone who can maintain 20mph manual pedaling an ebike has built up a 30 second lead, you have 4-5 miles of woodland singletrack.
(I've only ever XC raced in south of england, so can only relate to those courses)
This 4-5 miles you're now able to do at up to 15.5mph without tiring yourself excessively.
15mph in tight singletrack is pretty much an enduro race in terms of technique/skill required - the speed from the motor replacing the speed from gravity.
What I mean is, you'll be looking for smoother lines, aiming to maintain speed through corners and so on.
being good at not falling off at high speed and being brave enough to brake less and later is what is going to get better times.
In an enduro, most of your power comes from gravity (usually which you've banked by riding up prior). Everyone gets the same gravity, and here everyone gets 250 watts. You can top up with the pedals, and you can also encounter situations where you'll be braking as you dont want / cant handle the available speed.
Basically we've invented mass start gravity racing without the need for a large hill or the need to pedal up/ bus up/chairlift up.
Which actually sounds great fun to me, but the OP said upthread
and I don’t just want to do descents like the current enduro scene
But after that 1/2 mile fire road where someone who can maintain 20mph manual pedaling an ebike has built up a 30 second lead, you have 4-5 miles of woodland singletrack.
(I’ve only ever XC raced in south of england, so can only relate to those courses)
This 4-5 miles you’re now able to do at up to 15.5mph without tiring yourself excessively.
15mph in tight singletrack is pretty much an enduro race in terms of technique/skill required – the speed from the motor replacing the speed from gravity.
What I mean is, you’ll be looking for smoother lines, aiming to maintain speed through corners and so on.
being good at not falling off at high speed and being brave enough to brake less and later is what is going to get better times.
Which is mostly going to be down to practice and time on the bike. It's not like the guys at the sharp end of the Gorrick races fit the bambi-on-ice or lost roadies stereotypes. The same people hold all the Swinley/Tunnel Hill/Crownthorne/Minley/Deepcut KOMs both up and down.
Those people kidding themselves that they'd be at the sharp end of an XC race if only they had an electric motor are in denial.