[Closed] e bike cat for xc races?

How would they validate all the e-bikes were unmodified?

Why don't you just enter fun cats?

there aren' any kit restrictions on normal bikes (are there?), it' just about how deep your pockets are.

if there is nothing other than a medal, some bragging rights and alot of fun doesn' really matter?

I'm in 😁

It's possible that OP has invented the world's least engaging spectator sport. 🙂

It’s possible that OP has invented the world’s least engaging spectator sport.

No, XC racing has been around for years

TBH i think it's a cracking idea.

I'm not being dismissive (honest), but I think of myself as reasonably fit and have never really had "fun" in an XC race.

I just ride as hard as I can and it hurts a lot, the only real difference is my placing at the end. Often had more exciting battles for 17th or 38th or whatever at the lower end when I was less fit.

No, XC racing has been around for years

Actual LOL.

Yeah just enter the fun cat, or a non xc xc race, or start one

I’m not being dismissive (honest), but I think of myself as reasonably fit and have never really had “fun” in an XC race.

You don't find the courses themselves enjoyable ? Sure it's horrifically hard and you push yourself exceptionally hard, i get that.... but the terrain is still enjobable sweeping, swopping, jumping, rooting, etc ?

I suppose the course can be fun sometimes yeah, especially if it's possible to use it to your advantage.

But it's comparable to being punched in the face for an hour or two and given a tasty snack in the middle - on balance it's still not an enjoyable experience.

Pointy end of any race isn't fun. If it is, you should be in the next category up.

Even "fun" bits of the course aren't much fun when you are looking for the fastest/lowest risk route through when your pushing *almost* hard enough to vomit......

Wouldn't they all rip up the course? That happens already with regular human powered bikes, but if you got 50 ebikes tearing around at 15mph in the slithery slaggy sections, it would just turn into a horrible grim nightmare.

I realise that horrible grim nightmare is the essence of XC racing, but even so.

Actually racing someone, that's fun.  You're lucky if it happens though - sit just behind the actual good racers in you race and you might not see anyone - I never did, except once, which was fun.

E-bike category would be a good idea though. I'm all for it.  But you'd probably need scrutineers though.

I'd probably be tempted to do another 24 solo if there was an e-bike cat.

Actually racing someone, that’s fun.  You’re lucky if it happens though – sit just behind the actual good racers in you race and you might not see anyone – I never did, except once, which was fun

I think that can massively depend on the Cat entries and number of riders etc. With Southern XC i entered their lower class, which puts me about mid-bunch, maybe slightly lower, but it does mean i get a race every time, riders close, riders to pass, riders to stay ahead of. With Gorrick in 'fun' i get the same sort of ability group, but arguably i'm a little higher up.

This year i'm only doing 1-2 XC races due to dates/availability, but i'm very much hoping once again to have riders in sight both ahead and behind me.

I think the catagory would have to run at a separate time to other races.

When would the e-bikers race? Before, with, or after? I think it would be better to have an e-bike specific event rather than trying to shoehorn an e-bike category into an existing event.

All the usual racers would buy an ebike and win those races as well. It's just your wattage and propensity to suffer + 250, isn't it?

UCI are working on an e-bike category for some events i believe.

my understanding is that e-bike racing on the continent generally includes more techincal climbs and a length that means battery management is key - keep it on boost and you'l drain your battery straight away...

having ridden a fair number of them, you don't actually get 250W all the time, and you wouldn't want that anyway, as traction and torque control are all more important than just flinging an extra 250W at the back wheel.

as for 'tearing up' the courses, this, again is rubbish imo - it's perfectly possible to maintain traction with an e-bike and there's no incentive to loose traction - much like on a regular bike.

It would just be Enduro with competitive climbs. Then the manufacturers would realize it was a good marketing opportunity, someone would hire Adrian Newey as designer, and you'd end up needing a seven figure budget to be competitive in the electric moto-x championship.

Just allow them in the fun cat, fun cat should just be for fun anyway with no prizes etc so it shouldn't make any difference. All the people who find it objectionable they are no longer always podiuming in fun because of electrically assisted bikes might be incentivised to move up a cat to where they actually belong.

Well that's one view Ferrals.

Fun isn't entirely populated by sandbaggers though. We all have to start somewhere and having a level playing field from the outset is kind of important.

It was mostly in jest

I do have a bee in my bonnet about sandbaggers in fun though so anything that can be done to flush them out and make fun 'fun' would be a good thing imo.

Just allow them in the fun cat, fun cat should just be for fun anyway with no prizes etc so it shouldn’t make any difference.

😂😂😂😂  You've ever done a fun race have you !!

riveting stuff

@taxi25 haha, i did one when I was just starting racing again having been soundly thrashed trying sport, won that so decided to stick with sport where i continue to get soundy thrashed.

My beef with fun started decades ago though when i was racing in juvenile and persuaded my old man to try a fun race.. he was so demoralised at the speed of half the field he hated teh experiance.

My beef with fun started decades ago though when i was racing in juvenile and persuaded my old man to try a fun race.. he was so demoralised at the speed of half the field he hated teh experiance.

totally get that. My last Gorrick race i turned up at, about 12 months ago.. I found myself with something unique... people in BAGGIES ! there was even a fella in jeans ! It was great. But camelbaks were in full view, baggies and people who look out of place in anything other than fun... Sure, a few race whippets cleared off, but mostly it was just average blokes having fun, i was massively impressed i really was.

Must just be me but I'm struggling to see the point. Isn't xc racing primarily a test of fitness.so adding a motor kind of defeats the purpose. If you are unfit enough to be competitive in any category then you can still race, you just won't win

Nothing against ebikes but this just seems pointless.

It was mostly in jest

I do have a bee in my bonnet about sandbaggers in fun though so anything that can be done to flush them out and make fun ‘fun’ would be a good thing imo.

I did suspect you might be and I agree to a point.

Maybe anyone with team lycra and a visible ribcage should only be allowed in sport or above?

Or if your bike weighs less than 25lbs?

I like them criteria 🙂

I'm assuming the OP was referring to PlayStation or Wii or something, but it appears not.

How completely pointless. What next, a category for different sized motors.... you know 125, 250 cc etc etc

If you want do do a sport, ditch the engine, if not, stick to computer games. 😃

Wouldn't this be motor racing?

I don't understand how it would work either.  Everyone using the same bike that is locked up in between races to prevent performance enhancement, or free to do what you want, at which point they become motor bikes with pedals.

Nothing against the idea but I'm not sure how it would add to the racing side in honesty, as above, it would either end up populated by all the usual suspects anyhow or just be a fun category.

If you could make them look like non ebikes and run it at the same time mind it would be fun to watch (obviously separate category but, you know, not obvious during the race) of only for the apoplectic rage that would be evident in some of the crowd. (The ones who run [s]fully rigid, 35lb pig iron fixed gear bikes with solid tyres as tech is cheating[/s] 18lb carbon wonder bikes with 12 speeds suspension and carbon wheels, because wallet powered assistance is ok)

My beef with fun started decades ago though when i was racing in juvenile and persuaded my old man to try a fun race.. he was so demoralised at the speed of half the field he hated teh experiance.

You'd get exactly the same in sport, even if you thought you were fit.

My first few XC seasons in the UK i moved myself up, BC weren't interested. "Not enough points" "Not high enough up in the rankings". "Not interested in your foreign licence category, You need a BC licence."

I'd have had to get an overall top 15 in sport and top 5 in expert to get moved up officially. On a diet of half a dozen UK regional wins/podiums a year. And maybe one or two nationals. Not a chance.

A 10 second google shows that BC still have very similar promotion criteria. So not only do you have to be fast and win stuff, you have to be rich (time and cash) to go to lots of races.  Anyone who races now has a similar problem, need to do all your regional series, and all the national series and do well. And a couple of other races, just to get from sport to expert........

So as sport is (still) full of really fast riders who don't do *enough* events, lots of really quite fit riders stay in fun. So they don't get their heads kicked in.

E-Bike category is a bit daft though, especially in XC, marathon racing might be more suited.

You’d get exactly the same in sport, even if you thought you were fit.

No shit. I've spent much of the last few years coming almost last in sport despite actively training as much as i can around work and family life. Thankfully I'm pigheaded enough to still enjoy it.

So as sport is (still) full of really fast riders who don’t do *enough* events, lots of really quite fit riders stay in fun. So they don’t get their heads kicked in.

But that's a problem if we want to encourage more people to race.. which personally I think we do as from what i can see XC is loosing popularity.. despite the media saying otherwise. Its interesting to see the open cat has been ditched as a cat in the nationals this year so either your racing in fun or you're buying a licence and racing in the appropriate age or ability category. Wheter htis means the guys who raced open drop down to fun or buy a licence remains to be seen. I'd then like to see a rule whereby if you've 'won' the overall series in fun cat for a specific series, the next year you are mandated to move up to the next level for that series.

Anyway way off topic for an ebike thread!

riveting stuff

There aren't many forms of bike racing that are interesting to watch.

I could definitely see it being a good race for the racers on eBikes. Trouble is, all the bikes would have to be the same, otherwise it'd be pointless calling it a race.

Also, just thought - there would be fit bastards with eBikes, so not being able to train and having a 40odd-lb bike under you isn't going to make for a fun race when they all leave you for dead.

I could definitely see it being a good race for the racers on eBikes. Trouble is, all the bikes would have to be the same, otherwise it’d be pointless calling it a race.

This seems the insurmountable obstacle to me, though it would provide plenty of ammo for excuses if you didn't do so well.

why would the bikes have to be the same?  they aren't the same in normal racing.  Far from it.  I'm not talking about it being a cat for bc points or anything

racing in fun has no appeal, I'm over the ride till I puke (and be a lot slower than I used to be).  But I still really like the sort of loops gorrick put together and the idea of actually competing against others.  and I don't just want to do descents like the current enduro scene

[i] I still really like the sort of loops gorrick put together and the idea of actually competing against others[/i]

But if it's a [i]race[/i] you wouldn't be able to cruise up the climbs like a normal eBike ride! You'd be [i]racing[/i] - ie' trying to sprint the beast up the climbs. Knackering yourself til you puke.

And the bikes wouldn't have to be the same - they would have to have the same power engine - exactly like normal XC racing bikes all have the same power engine (ie. none). I really can't explain something so obvious!

If you don't want to race up climbs - there are some Enduro races with an eBike category.

The Mountain Bike Orienteering/Trailquest type events I enter now have an E-bile category if you wanted to do something with a competitive purpose. I only know of 1 lad riding them regularly on an E-bike so you would stand a good chance of getting a class win :-). Obviously the class is separate from all the others so it is not possible to be the overall winner on an E-bike, but it is a great way to get out, ride some off-road stuff, push as hard as you can, and maybe get some bragging rights with a class win.

Check out here for details if any races in your area

http://www.bmbo.org.uk/calendar/

I've resisted commenting on this as I wanted to think it over, but sorry, I just get why you'd want an e-bike category for XC races. E-enduro I get, the emphasis is on the downs and the ups are just to get to the downs, but XC is about going up and down. An e-bike XC race just removes a fundamental part of XC racing doesn't it?

Build it and they'll want to race it. Even lawn mowers.

lot of people on here clearly never ridden an e-bike. physically hardest ride of the year so far was on an ebike. you don't just sit there with 250W going to the back wheel all the time.

i don't get the 'you'd have to have the same bike' argument either - there're legally defined rules on the bikes' power in each country, to which all major manufacturers stick. if someone wants to ride Brose or Shimano, that shouldn't make a difference, if they stick to the legal limits, and aren't chipped (which, yes, would be something to work out)

why would the bikes have to be the same?

Because someone will always want to win, and in essence they could turn up on a motorbike with pedals. ie a big motor and big battery far better than yours.

Then people sulk and say it’s not fair, next you have homologation rules and an arms race which makes it expensive.

In a normal bike race the engine is you, the more you train the faster you go. Ebike you just buy a better engine

if they stick to the legal limits,

But people wont stick to what’s legal. People never do in motor sport, so then you need to engineers to check equipment

push as hard as you can

I don't think OP wants to do that. 😉

I still really like the sort of loops gorrick put together <em class="bbcode-em">

If it was just this, you could go round the race course on your e-bike after the race has finished (bung a contribution to Gorricks preferred charity).  Maybe even bring along a mate on his e-bike....................

Surely if the bikes are fairly closely regulated then the same 20 people in an ebike race will place in the same order as they would have done in a normal race?

The only thing that would change would be the lap times?

Which kind of means its pointless but also hard to object to.

If it gets extra folk turning up at races then it’s probably a good idea??

Especially as soon there will be people with an ebike  in the garage but no regular XC bike.

E-bile category

In typo veritas.

"i don’t get the ‘you’d have to have the same bike’ argument either – there’re legally defined rules on the bikes’ power in each country, to which all major manufacturers stick. if someone wants to ride Brose or Shimano, that shouldn’t make a difference, if they stick to the legal limits, and aren’t chipped (which, yes, would be something to work out)"

Rules on power but not on batteries. How long will they last blatting it about in turbo mode?

Very quickly becomes a wallet size contest, or bikes that have easily removable batteries having one per lap and changing in the pits.

If it gets extra folk turning up at races then it’s probably a good idea??

I think that's the logic in discussion really. It may potentially get more people out who ordinarily wouldn't enter.

Very quickly becomes a wallet size contest

In so much as, assuming you're as fit/capable as the next person, the one with the more expensive lighter [s]bike[/s] battery wins? How does that differ from any other sort of racing?

(And as someone who doesn't really do motor racing, I believe fuel/refuel strategy is a big thing in terms of race outcomes?)

There should be an unlimited category.  Then you'd get all the lunatics from YouTube with 3kW bikes turning up.  It'd be an amazing spectator sport!

That would be genius, big motor bso racing on a technical course.

As long as a category is a level playing field then crack on. Wouldn't make the other categories slower or faster so can't see the harm.

Surely if the bikes are fairly closely regulated then the same 20 people in an ebike race will place in the same order as they would have done in a normal race?

Maybe not. In a regular XC race, you spend much more time climbing than descending, so someone who is 5% behind on climbs would have to be much faster on descents to make up the deficit. With e-bikes, the climbing times will be much faster and the slower climbers will be boosted more than the faster climbers (i.e. the field will be bunched up more). This will increase the advantage of being a good descender and decrease the advantage of being a good climber. On top of that, it may be worth running longer travel suspension and bigger tyres to gain time on the descents, but that will depend on the individual circuit. However, if e-bike racing really did become a thing, then I would expect that the circuits would change to be better suited to e-bikes. I suspect that e-bike racing would evolve to be more like enduro than XC and that more muscular riders might benefit and skinny little twiglets might be disadvantaged.

I believe fuel/refuel strategy is a big thing in terms of race outcomes

Freak results do happen occasionally due to good strategy/luck, but motor racing is overwhelmingly determined by technology, which requires massive amounts of money.

E-mtb's exist so some people will want to race them. But it would have to be in their own class. If it became popular enough you'd need all the different ability and age classes as well. I just don't think the demand will be that great. Exceptions aside I don't see most of the able bodied E-mtb riders being that interested in XC type racing.

It may potentially get more people out who ordinarily wouldn’t enter.

And help them get fit enough to then enter a proper race  😉  😀

I believe fuel/refuel strategy is a big thing in terms of race outcomes

Freak results do happen occasionally due to good strategy/luck, but motor racing is overwhelmingly determined by technology, which requires massive amounts of money.

At the high end (eg F1 before they stopped refueling) the strategy was important, but done with computer models running every possible scenario, not some tactical genius in a flat cap going by a hunch.

In so much as, assuming you’re as fit/capable as the next person, the one with the more expensive lighter bike battery wins? How does that differ from any other sort of racing?

No difference in theory, just that the difference is greater.

Someone who has the pockets to run the full race at 250W turbo vs the chap on a budget that must spend most of their time in 50W eco must amount to about the difference between 'fun' winner and World cup winner.

Here, maybe like, there's a market for this. A bit like Karting tracks... buy a fleet of eBikes and rent a nice uppy-downy bit of land - charge people to race the eBikes! Like stag-dos and that to start with.. maybe more serious racers will get interested (like they do with the karting...)

There already is an E-bike world championship isn't there? Not sure if it's UCI affiliated or not but it does exist.

The problem with the OP's idea is he would still lose.  The winner would still be whoever could climb fastest (the slowest person would be the person cruising uphill at 15mph using the motor).

Or looks at Motorcross, yes the bikes have 80/125/250/450cc engines, but the rider are still (at the sharp end) very fit because it's the fitness that gives them an advantage.

Enduro seems more suited to the niche of unfit people on e-bikes who still want to race.

Enduro seems more suited to the niche of unfit people on e-bikes who still want to race.

and come last

The winner would still be whoever could climb fastest (the slowest person would be the person cruising uphill at 15mph using the motor).

The aim would be to ride at exactly 15mph everywhere would it not? Apart from any extended open descents where gravity would allow you to exceed it.

You would be at a base cardio level for the whole race from light(ish) pedaling, but would expend much of your energy throwing your weight around into the corners, bunny-hopping roots etcetera. 2 continuous hours of this would be exhausting so would still be dominated by the fit.

Any pedaling over 15mph would be a massive extra energy expenditure for marginal gains and so would be tactically stupid for most of the race (start and finish line sprints excepted); and therefore any drop below 15 due to rider error or cowardice is heavily punished as you must manually exceed the limiter to catch up with your opponents.

and come last

True, a 40lb bike isn't going to be quick.  But like the hardtail, or fat bike riders if there's enough of you it could still be fun competition.

The aim would be to ride at exactly 15mph everywhere would it not? Apart from any extended open descents where gravity would allow you to exceed it.

The limiter is 15.5mph and 250w. Most XC racers are going to be spending a lot of time over 15.5mph, at which point its just a heavier bike, but the fittest rider will still win.

OK there may be gradients where the optimum is to put in the minimum effort to maintain 15.5mph is required making max use of the 250w. But anything steeper becomes a case of rider +250w (fittest wins) or anything shallower I'd expect anyone competitive to do more than 15.

Its a race, no one who wants to win will be half assing it.

The limiter is 15.5mph and 250w. Most XC racers are going to be spending a lot of time over 15.5mph,

I wish !

The limiter is 15.5mph and 250w. Most XC racers are going to be spending a lot of time over 15.5mph, at which point its just a heavier bike, but the fittest rider will still win.

OK there may be gradients where the optimum is to put in the minimum effort to maintain 15.5mph is required making max use of the 250w. But anything steeper becomes a case of rider +250w (fittest wins) or anything shallower I’d expect anyone competitive to do more than 15.

Its a race, no one who wants to win will be half assing it.

My last race was gorrick crowthorne. 7.5mph got me mid pack in open.

10mph or thereabouts would be winning expert.

If your race was Sir Bradley against an asthmatic septuagenarian, then rider+250w means the gangly lad will take the win by miles. However the step change in effort to ride at 16 vs 15.5 means that your average joe against average jon where there is, say, a 10% cardio fitness gap, there isnt the physical ability to overcome this step; the tactic is surely to ride to the limiter, or you'll be 30 seconds ahead and collapsed on the floor after 5 minutes.

I did a Scott marathon where we averaged 17.5mph for 85km and 1000m of ascent

I was drafting Nick Craig and Paul Oldham for most of it though. 😉

For the record I think e-bike racing is silly because as all their defenders state, e-bikes are for the old, injured and completely unfit. We'd need about 20 ambulances on standby.

Sorry 😉

I did a Scott marathon where we averaged 17.5mph for 85km and 1000m of ascent

Considering about 98% on here couldn't even do that on the road, i'm not actually sure you're human !

Paul Oldham turned to me towards the end and said “****in hell, have you seen what speed we're doing? I don’t do that on me road bike.”

I was too star struck to do anything more than politely agree.

The idea of XC racing is to compete with others in your category on a mix of fitness and bike handling ability (mostly fitness). Conversely, the idea of e-biking is to fulfill the modern need for effortless gratification and enjoy the reward of descending without having to actually earn it on the climb. I suppose the logical next step would be to receive trophies for your ability in enjoying such effortless rewards.

Alternatively, you can just enter the correct category at a regular XC race on a regular to test your fitness against similar others.

and enjoy the reward of descending without having to actually earn it on the climb. I suppose the logical next step would be to receive trophies for your ability in enjoying such effortless rewards.

Oh you could even let those contending get a lift to the top and everything. Maybe call it down hill. I bet it's completely effortless.

I don't really understnad the naysayers, it would be a different category (probably different event all together if it was popular), it wouldnt affect standard races and you could easily have regs to standardise motors/power etc into differnet classes in the same way they do for one design racing.

It wouldn't be for me (I'm a liability on any form of motorised bike), but then neither is enduro, downhill, road racing, track racing, BMX or four cross and I can see the merit in all of them.

I would be surprised if it didnt happen sooner rather than later in the UK

My last race was gorrick crowthorne. 7.5mph got me mid pack in open.

10mph or thereabouts would be winning expert.

Yes, but the fit rider on the e-bike who sprints off down the one fireroad section at 16mph will still win the race.

It's a RACE, people will get competitive and want to win. You've as much chance of stopping that as you have trying to enforce some sort of gentlemen's agreement in a normal bike race that no one will go above a certain speed or break into a sweat. You've almost invented the cycling equivalent of competitive walking*.

I'm not naysaying that E-bike racing wouldn't work, it can and does work on the continent.  I'm saying that the riders involved are probably trying just as hard (and probably just as fit) as those in normal XC, so turning up in your fat lad at the back jersey is still going to result in a DFL if anyone else has been training.

*I am aware that I've basically described Audax, but that's not a race and well beyond the range of an E-bike.

E-bike racing for the rider to ****ing lazy to put a bit of effort in to train.

Yes, but the fit rider on the e-bike who sprints off down the one fireroad section at 16mph will still win the race.

Agreed for 2 riders of equal skill, and you're right, if the serious racers get a hold of this, they'll win the ebike race too.

But after that 1/2 mile fire road where someone who can maintain 20mph manual pedaling an ebike has built up a 30 second lead, you have 4-5 miles of woodland singletrack.

(I've only ever XC raced in south of england, so can only relate to those courses)

This 4-5 miles you're now able to do at up to 15.5mph without tiring yourself excessively.

15mph in tight singletrack is pretty much an enduro race in terms of technique/skill required - the speed from the motor replacing the speed from gravity.

What I mean is, you'll be looking for smoother lines, aiming to maintain speed through corners and so on.

being good at not falling off at high speed and being brave enough to brake less and later is what is going to get better times.

In an enduro, most of your power comes from gravity (usually which you've banked by riding up prior). Everyone gets the same gravity, and here everyone gets 250 watts. You can top up with the pedals, and you can also encounter situations where you'll be braking as you dont want / cant handle the available speed.

Basically we've invented mass start gravity racing without the need for a large hill or the need to pedal up/ bus up/chairlift up.

Which actually sounds great fun to me, but the OP said upthread

and I don’t just want to do descents like the current enduro scene