This is being reported in several places though just as an 'insider' view rather than anything confirmed. No suprise on either if that's the case though.
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/shimano-dura-ace-di2-11-speed-and-disc-brakes-for-2013-32091
11 speed?
this madness has to stop.
Why would anyone want disc brakes on a road bike?
I certainly wouldn't on any big alpine descent.
rims can be lighter and not enslaved to providing a braking surface, brakes can be better. good reasons!
11 speed?this madness has to stop.
doesn't campag do an 11 speed groupset already?
Don't Tarmac make roads already?
This has to stop. It could be a gay Hindu badger's face next, y'know.
Why would anyone want disc brakes on a road bike?
CX?
As already suggested sounds like the disc option is aimed at new CX regs.
Says a mechanical caliper first, compatible with older sti units, hydro later. Good move to offer both.
11 speed works fine on Campag and has done for a couple of years so I don't see an issue there though a new standard is annoying sounding.
Shimano need a decent mechanical 'road' disc caliper as they're currently way behind the BB7 as a choice for CX/road discs. Will be interesting to see what they come up with.
Why would anyone want disc brakes on a road bike?
I do! More power = less hurty tiny hands on big long fast descents. 😀
I predicted tiny discs on road bikes years ago. Then Lance Armstrong agreed with me, CX adopted them, and now it's only a matter of time until the UCI relents and we see them everywhere.
Where's aP?
Told ya so! 😛
Changing BB standard?
A new freehub standard?
*bangs head against wall*
At least the BB is possibly going to be an existing one not yet another random set of numbers and letters. Fingers crossed they adopt the campag freehub size as well, about time some manufacturers started using common systems rather than being individual for the sake of it.
Thankfully MTB seems to lag behind the road by a few years so the daftest ideas filter out.
Fingers crossed they adopt the campag freehub size
Very unlikely though they *might* adopt the Campag sprocket spacing.
I certainly wouldn't on any big alpine descent.
What? So you'd prefer your rims to heat up, increasing pressure in your tyres and heat in your pads, so you risk blowouts and brake fade, at 40mph into hairpins....
Big descents are exactly where you gain with discs.
Discs are inevitable. Only people who prefer sh!t brakes will stay with rims brakes...
There's clearly an arms race going on here - the manufacturers of groupsets against the manufacturers of razor blades. 11 speed DA? In your face, Wilkinson Sword.
Plenty of pros for having hydro discs on road bikes - you don't need to be descending in the Alps to realise that, try the Trossachs in the wet with a carbon braking surface. Only cons I can see are the need for a new STI design and the fact it'll make beautiful wheels look [i]appalling[/i].
rims can be lighter
Lighter = better?
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glenh - Member
Why would anyone want disc brakes on a road bike?
I certainly wouldn't on any big alpine descent.
Remember all the Pyrenean descent crashes this year.. Tommo, Frank, Voeckler's..
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Carbon rim braking performance has been improving but is still not a patch on aluminium (allegedly) (they still lose power in the wet and 'grab' or 'fade' when they get too hot).
It would be interesting to do some analysis. Not just weight but other implications - stress on fork blades, spokes etc.
If it could be shown that discs = less weight or marginally more weight at the centre of the wheel but less rolling resistance overall and consistent braking performance (incl. 'feel' and 'power' in all conditions) then I can see roadies buying it.
Previously, the main reason not to have discs has been weight. Now that even an off-the-peg road bike can be below the minimum UCI weight limit of 6.8kg, that's less of an issue.
Now there's just the engineering issues to overcome and the fact that frames, forks and wheels will need complete re-designs to handle the mounting and the stresses of disc brakes. That's going to be the biggest hurdle, getting it widely accepted and basically making EVERYTHING that has gone before (wheels/frames/forks wise) completely obsolete.
Oh and it has to be accepted by the UCI. Without that change to the UCI Tech Regs, the idea is going nowhere.
As to 11-speed, Shimano have done it the right way round. Electronic first, then 11-speed.
forks and wheels will need complete re-designs to handle the mounting and the stresses of disc brakes.
But its not as if its ground breaking technology or research for that re-design ... there is years of data from the disc setups already available ... esp in light weight carbon frames of hardtails.
if i remember correctly geraints crash as per that photo was more to do with that wet / oily patch on the road and his wheel locking up than not being able to stop.
What? So you'd prefer your rims to heat up, increasing pressure in your tyres and heat in your pads, so you risk blowouts and brake fade, at 40mph into hairpins....Big descents are exactly where you gain with discs.
Discs are inevitable. Only people who prefer sh!t brakes will stay with rims brakes...
Well, I only ever experienced over heating and brake fade on discs.
Plus, the rim brakes on my road bike are powerful enough to lock either wheel in the dry or wet, so they seem fine to me.
As to 11-speed, Shimano have done it the right way round. Electronic first, then 11-speed.
Why is that the 'right' way round? Looks like their 'top of the range' electronic shifters are 'only' going to be 10 speed. And the cheaper mechanical stuff is 'better' because it's 11 speed. Marketing guys are going have a field day with trying to explain that one/hype it up.
clubber - MemberThis is being reported in several places though just as an 'insider' view rather than anything confirmed. No suprise on either if that's the case though.
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/shimano-dura-ace-di2-11-speed-and-disc-brakes-for-2013-32091
I made a sex wee...disc brakes, 11 speed...what next wireless shifters? 😛 Looking forward to this!
We don't need 11 speed, well I don't and I don't need 10 speed either, 9 speed is more than enough for my needs.
Plus, the rim brakes on my road bike are powerful enough to lock either wheel in the dry or wet, so they seem fine to me.
Why do people think that just because a brake can lock a wheel, they must be powerful?
Well, I only ever experienced over heating and brake fade on discs.
I assume you're talking about MTB riding now... I don't doubt your statement is true but what would the situation be if you were using V-brakes? Better? or worse? You may have a short memory on how good rim brakes were on MTBs!
MTB discs may well suffer fade on big Alpine descents but a rim brake setup would be A LOT worse. You may well be dead!
Give it time... technology shifts always take time. But it'll happen.
You won't see a £500+ MTB without discs nowadays. Commuters are going the same way, and CXers are moving too, and fast. Roadies will be the last to shift obviously, but that's no big surprise.
So how small could you go for rotors on a road disc and still have power / temperature control? 100mm rotors would look sweet (and be more aero)!
Fairings on the frame and fork?
Tiny calipers?
Skinny hose?
Very cool i think
DA 11 oooooh I will have some of that, electronic you say? Awesome!
As for disc brakes on my road bike, no thanks, shove that idea where the sun don't shine. And as for the whiny people "boohoo my rim brakes are rubbish" two things spring to mind, set them up properly with good pads, and buy better calipers, like Ciamillo Zero G's 😀
No is too expense.
boriselbrus - MemberPlus, the rim brakes on my road bike are powerful enough to lock either wheel in the dry or wet, so they seem fine to me.
Why do people think that just because a brake can lock a wheel, they must be powerful?
or be comfortable to use for prolonged periods. or the only option. 😕
...As for disc brakes on my road bike, no thanks, shove that idea where the sun don't shine. And as for the whiny people "boohoo my rim brakes are rubbish" two things spring to mind, set them up properly with good pads, and buy better calipers...
hmm, i don't want 'road' discs because i think they'll be an improvement in braking power - my callipers really are quite good. they could be better, but it's already easy to lock the wheels when it's wet.
no, i want discs because the very idea of using the rim as a braking surface is stupid. My lovely rims are getting worn away every time i slow down.
my 'new' wheels are only a year old, but i can already feel/see the wear - the rim wall is noticeable thinner.
i'd rather replace a £20 disc every few years, than a £50rim + spokes + build every few years.
and keeping the braking surface out of any water on the road makes just as much sense on a road bike as on a mountain bike.
boriselbrus - Member
Why do people think that just because a brake can lock a wheel, they must be powerful?
If your braking force exceeds the friction coefficient of your tyres, your doing ok on the braking front.
If you could have disc brakes on a road or cross bike without a significant weight - and in time - cost penalty, why would you not want them for any reason other than knee-jerk conservatism and some odd traditionalist loyalty to 'the way things are supposed to be'?
but the ability to lock a wheel is a strange way to illustrate that your brakes can't be improved on.
BadlyWiredDog - MemberIf you could have disc brakes on a road or cross bike without a significant weight - and in time - cost penalty, why would you not want them for any reason other than knee-jerk conservatism and some odd traditionalist loyalty to 'the way things are supposed to be'?
well said.
If you could have disc brakes on a road or cross bike without a significant weight - and in time - cost penalty, why would you not want them for any reason other than knee-jerk conservatism and some odd traditionalist loyalty to 'the way things are supposed to be'?
If
Very unlikely though they *might* adopt the Campag sprocket spacing.
Which would be just as useful - if they do change the width I'd be surprised if they don't keep the same spline pattern for backwards compatibility. Only an extra couple of mm required to be the same width as Campag freehubs for the same spacing. I can actually see it making real commercial sense for Shimano as they're likely to sell hubs and cassettes to people who have a Campag drivetrain, without really losing any sales in the other direction. I'd certainly run a Shimano cassette on my Campag bike if I could get one with the right spacing.
How many people wanting hydraulic disks have actualy already spent the £200+(over the normal DA STI price) per brake that Shimano will want for it? I'm guessing if you've already paid for swiss stop pads bling callipers etc then maybe there's a point.
But bear in mind
Weekend warrior -200lb
TDF rider - 150lb?
F=ma, e=mv2, e=fd, s=ut+0.5at2 and all that jazz, do TDF riders need more braking power?
ah well,(trudges to wheely bin and lobs my Di2 in.....)
I thought the old adage was better brakes = going faster for longer. Maybe we'll see even faster descents...?
Imagine the cost of hydraulic STIs. Actually, don't, it might be dangerous for those with heart conditions.
MTB discs may well suffer fade on big Alpine descents but a rim brake setup would be A LOT worse. You may well be dead!
What a load!
If you could have disc brakes on a road or cross bike without a significant weight - and in time - cost penalty, why would you not want them for any reason other than knee-jerk conservatism and some odd traditionalist loyalty to 'the way things are supposed to be'?
Because they will overheat and long descents, unless they are big and heavy.
Why do people think that just because a brake can lock a wheel, they must be powerful?or be comfortable to use for prolonged periods. or the only option.
Err, well my calliper brakes are comfortable on long alpine downhills, and provide enough power to stop at the limits of traction in all conditions. I can't really see what's wrong with that?
no, i want discs because the very idea of using the rim as a braking surface is stupid. My lovely rims are getting worn away every time i slow down.
^^
This x 15
Brakes that wear down a vital structural element of the bike, resulting in potentially dangerous wheels is one of the most stupid concepts still commonly used on bikes these days.
disc brakes, 11 speed...what next wireless shifters? Looking forward to this!
No! Wireless disc brakes 😯
tbf, nothing brings out the luddites more than road cycling. 😆
Interesting debate 🙂
matthewlhome - Member
if i remember correctly geraints crash as per that photo was more to do with that wet / oily patch on the road and his wheel locking up than not being able to stop.
On the descent preceding the Tourmalet, for a few minutes, Thomas had done a passable impression of someone who had already sipped a few too many pints. Two crashes within the space of a few hundred meters threatened to derail his breakaway bid before the Olympic team pursuit champion finally regained his composure and descended safely to the foot of the Tourmalet."On the first one, there was something on the road and I ended up crashing. The second one was just stupid. I think I had a bit of mud on my tyres and couldn't slow down quickly enough. It looked a bit of a drop so I thought I'd better crash now before going off down there. I lost my head a bit after that. I was a bit frustrated. I got back on, they didn't really want to wait for me and it was all right in the end.
I'd love to own a set of carbon wheels but don't so I can't speak from experience. A few club members / mates do though and opinion amongst them is still mixed (on braking performance). Some rims / pads work better than others.
tbf, nothing brings out the luddites more than road cycling
+1
I suspect many people can only embrace new technology when eveyone else around them has it.