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Berms? where do you find them on a real trail.
Indeed. Small ones do happen sometimes, but it's a good point.
We've just come back from the Alps and the general consensus of our group of 4 was that we preferred the tighter, rockier, less 'groomed' trails without the berms. 😀
[i]You don't need to be in Scotland to not have to go to trail centres![/i]
🙂
Bumps, on mountain bikes.....that's just awful that is.... 🙄
Lots of obtuse not reading the thread comments. How very STW. Obviously there is a massive scale between smooth tarmac and rock garden, and obviously no-one that likes mountain biking wants it tarmac'd over. So those comments are just pointless.
If the terrain is other than hard-armoured rock then braking bumps [i]are[/i] a problem. Because they get worse and worse, water starts making a contribution, and then the trail is gone. Not gone bumpy. Gone completely. People start riding around the lumpy stuff, trail creeps wider and wider and the general public see nothing but wrecking of the countryside.
Which part of the "countryside" is not man-made? Any "wilderness" riding you do in the UK is on man-made trails, albeit maybe very old ones and most likely kept open with landrovers.
I regularly go up & over the Lammermuirs from Dunbar. That's mostly the Herring Road, a drove road to Lauder. It's man-made.
I also go to Glentress etc (and last weekend Contin for Strathpuffer!) and it's man-made. Just happens to pack more into a 7-mile loop than you'd ever get on a 50 mile all-dayer.
Both are good, that's all.
al.
Cwmcarn has eroded heavily over the years, and it's making it a better and better trail all the time! There's a rock substrate under thin soil that's quite crumbly and has been breaking up in interesting ways 🙂
There's the man-made countryside that changes very slowly and is what most people recognise and enjoy, and there's man-made "damage" and rapid change that can be caused by, for example, lots of mountain bikes skidding and ripping it up.
allankelly - Member
Which part of the "countryside" is not man-made? Any "wilderness" riding you do in the UK is on man-made trails, albeit maybe very old ones and most likely kept open with landrovers.
What I was getting at was they were formed by the traffic, not some guy thinking "put a berm here, a jump there, armour this bit, etc..."
Old drove roads, deer/sheep paths and so on.
Much as folk might not like the idea, but the trails that stay around the longest are the ones that have a little planning. With skill they can be made to feel "natural" but built without too many features that cause accelerated erosion.
Of course built or otherwise they are all erosion.
This trail in question wont disapear but it will change forever, and with luck it might turn out OK. Next winter we'll know as the trail is hardpack and sand. Still it'll look dreadful and the nice fast run in will be gone forever.
I still can't understand why anyone would brake on it, just roll in and hoon up the other side.
All this talk of bikes causing erosion boils my pis$. Can we not keep a sense of perspective? It's the countryside FFS, it's not going to wash away. How do you think the valleys (and therefore, the hills) got there in the first place? Erosion!
[i]How do you think the valleys (and therefore, the hills) got there in the first place? Erosion! [/i]
bloody glaciers, the trails round here were a darn sight better before they came along.
Shock but some people may not be as good or confident as you, so they feel they have to brake. That is totally their choice.
Not everyone is a biking god.
Yep, its the countryside. And it contains a hell of a lot more than a pile of dirt and thousands of selfish mountain bikers. When trails creep out and spring up all over the place bit by bit valuable habitat gets lost, drainage gets changed forever and so on and so on.
Valleys get made over centuries and milenia (def can't spell that) but attitudes to mountain biking get formed very much more quickly.
It's the countryside FFS, it's not going to wash away
No, but parts of it are. And parts of it might get so badly damaged that access is lost.
A real risk in busy areas, if you've never come across this problem then you're lucky 🙂
Oooh careful Joe you're opening up the 'it's ok for 4X4s then' debate.
I remember when this was all Fjords 😀
Which I know is spelt incorrectly but hey ho.
That's why braking bumps are a relatively new phenomenon
They bloody well are not! As long as there have been MTBs (and trails to ride them on) there have been Cack-handed spoons riding them.
Depending on the setting I don’t mind a bit of trail erosion/braking bumps forming, it can add a bit more challenge to a section of trail, knowing you have to clean it and where possible avoid/ride out the bumps created by lesser mortals, just like riding rocks/roots spotting your line through a ploughed up corner, going wide of the obvious line or just boosting the lot can be quite rewarding.
But it can also be a pain, as in the OPs case, on “bi-directional” natural trails where one way of riding starts to take over, certain features just become a bugger to get up and over or around because brake draggers have been going at them in the other direction…
Although you have to question the definition of “natural tails” to my mind it’s trails largely formed by regular use (they often follow drainage routes on certain hills) where, wheels and/or feet trundling along a certain route have basically created the trail, I’ve never considered the odd bit of maintenance or a minor modification a terrible sin, so long as you’re not installing decking or digging in huge jumps, merely creating what you can with your bare hands using the materials already present, and a bike then I reckon that qualifies as “Natural”…
Shock but some people may not be as good or confident as you, so they feel they have to brake. That is totally their choice.
Not everyone is a biking god
Oh do be quiet. Do you want me to spell it out? I said it's easy to ride even for an old mincer like me. That's why I'm asking if it's the suspension doing it.
Maybe we are all to blame.
If we were riding on 4" tyres with low pressure then maybe there would be less wear and tear.
I'm not 100% certain about this, but I think some years back said muppets dug out a drop off in this trail. Bare in mind it's called the roller coaster and is ace for it's flow i.e up and down and alternating cambers as well as a few short steep drops. And a local rode down not expecting this man made monstrosity and as a result needed to be airlifted out.
you're opening up the 'it's ok for 4X4s then' debate
I'd probably come out as pro-4x4 as well, I have to say.
Mind you, I grew up/live in the heartland of inbred, hillybilly, very Welsh Wales, and we have far too much countryside to deal with. I can see than a lot of people would have a very different experience and opinion of access vs. erosion.
there have been Cack-handed spoons riding them.
Come off it - braking bumps are inevitable with dry conditions and riders - nothing to do with being cack handed. If you brake at all then your wheel pushing against the dirt will move the dirt, and your wheel will be moving up and down over bumps - so braking bumps form.
A flat smooth dirt road will develop stutter bumps with cars driving over it gently at constant pace in a straight line.
They form much more severely on DH courses because people are ragging their bikes as fast as possible and so braking hard and cornering fast and loose.
Shock but some people may not be as good or confident as you, so they feel they have to brake. That is totally their choice.
Not everyone is a biking god.
To be fair, they probably shouldnt be on the trails then.
Alot of irate motorists are often calling for cyclists to hold liscenses, I think they should do, but not for road riding - for trail centre riding instead.
Alot of money is put into creating good trail centres and its a bit of a shame that the decent riders have to put up with idiots that cant ride ruining it for them
I mentioned before on another thread the course split at Enduro 6.
There were a couple of steep drops out of the woods which developed some serious braking bumps over the six hours. I was riding fully rigid, so noticed them more than most.
There was also a course split with a very steep short drop to the left and a slightly longer and slower chicken run to the right.
All the riding gods, like myself, did the steep drop, all the mincers did the chicken run.
Result, no braking bumps on the steep drop.
Braking bumps appear where people brake. A lot of riders brake where they don't need to. I don't know what the solution is.
LOL @ davidtaylforth
Perhaps the steep drop was a no-braker by definition. Or perhaps the angles were different. If it was Catton Park then the bit I think you are talking about is in no way a candidate for braking bumps.
Me, I brake into corners. If you're not braking into the corners then you're not going anything LIKE fast enough in the straights 🙂
What I was getting at was that as it was only the riding gods, like myself, who rode the steep drop, and as there was no need to brake, we didn't, so no braking bumps appeared.
If the mincers didn't have the chicken run option and had to ride the steep drop, they would have dragged the brakes on the way down, ripping up the surface.
dragged the brakes on the way down, ripping up the surface
Wouldn't have caused stutter bumps tho. Front wheel wouldn't skid otherwise you'd deck - and the back wheel's not on the ground enough.
I have never seen braking bumps on steep chutes. Physics is just not right.
You're right, you know.
I guess what I'm thinking of is that single big gouge you get on rollable drops that gradually make them steeper and squarer until they are no longer easily rollable.
Incidently, have you noticed that if I had claimed that I was only able to ride the steep drop because I was on a 29er or because I had my tyres at 50psi, there would have been all sorts of ructions and flaming.
Twice now I've claimed to be a riding god without contradiction.
I can only draw one conclusion from this lack of dissent. 8)
"Environment changes over time with use shocker":)
That's a slightly different topic they are talking about there, bassspine.
Stutter bumps going away from the corners are common now in motocross, but weren't when it was called scrambling.
They seem to be caused by increased suspension travel.
@MG I was going to draw the motocross analogy. When scramblers had 3-4" of suspension travel, we didn't get stutter bumps. Then as travel increased in the 70's to 7-8" and now 10" the bumps just got deeper and deeper. So I can't help thinking that the answer to the OP's question is probably yes, or at least that suspension is a contributory factor. May also be related to the invention of brakes that worked - both of these developments have been repeated in the MTB world in the past few years.
I'd always blamed moles. Killed hundreds of the things for that reason. I feel guilty now.
hoon up the otherside? of the rollercoaster? its a roll in, drop over the stump then right hand corner
Contact the landowner for permission, then get up there with some tools and flatten them out. Lot better than moaning about it on here 😉
[i]Oh do be quiet. Do you want me to spell it out? I said it's easy to ride even for an old mincer like me. That's why I'm asking if it's the suspension doing it.[/i]
But my wife uses her brakes on any hill even on the road, does this mean she shouldn't ride because she may ruin one of your trails?
jedi - Member
hoon up the otherside? of the rollercoaster? its a roll in, drop over the stump then right hand corner
Yeah that had me confused as well.
Newb question; are braking bumps only formed by locking up the rear wheel (skidz) or do they form even if people aren't locking up their brakes?
A lot of riders brake where they don't need to.
No, they brake where [u][b]YOU[/b][/u] don't need to. Big difference!
No, they brake where YOU don't need to. Big difference!
exactly i don't get why people don't see this,
The only way to stop braking bumps is to stop cycling, Deal with it and quit whining that trails are bumpy OR build your own bloody trails.
Newb question; are braking bumps only formed by locking up the rear wheel (skidz) or do they form even if people aren't locking up their brakes?
My guess is they form anyway. If you are braking then there's a force on the ground from the tyre. When you hit a bump the wheel gets kicked up a bit (even if it doens't leave the ground altogether) so the force is less, then the wheel comes back down and the force is more, so a dip forms after the bump. Then the far side of that dip becomes another bump, so the wheel gets kicked up again and so on and so on, the bumps spread down the trail.
The ground has to be fairly firm for this to happen I think, because otherwise the wheel will tend more to plough through the bump instead of being kicked up by it. Also, suspension changes the dynamic because the wheel goes up and down a lot more. So the bumps get bigger I suspect. That would suggest that the more travel, the larger the bumps and the further apart they are, which is kind of what you see on DH courses. There, the bumps are a lot bigger and more widely spaced than the ones you see opening up on say a 24 hour course where most people are on XC bikes.
hoon up the otherside? of the rollercoaster? its a roll in, drop over the stump then right hand corner
A roll to you Jedi a hoon to me. Don't forget I ride drop bar freemince. Anyway it does drop then goes to the right up tight between the trees no?
yes but you cannot roll it brake less and roll round if you're mincing
A stretch of well used bridleway on a popular mtb route we use is littered with 18 inch deep bumps that started off as braking ripples. Being a natural trail no-one will sort them and they keep getting worse now rain, frosts, snow have acted on them.
It's adds a bit of difficulty but ruined the flow of the trail.
But is it actually braking that causes it or the action of the suspension under brakes?
Anyone who has lived where there are dirt roads will be familiar with corrugations. The whole road is like a series of stutter bumps. These are formed anywhere and not just places where braking action is happening. That suggests to me that the resonance of the suspension may have more to do their formation.