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So I took my bike to a bike shop the other day, because I was having problems with the gear shifting, and my bike-mad colleague advised my rear derailer was worn out, plus the shifter is knackered too. The bike shop lad asked me how old the parts were, and they must be 20+ years old as the bike was bought new in 2003. I have had the chain and rear cogs replaced a few times. He exclaimed that nothing lasts anywhere near as long as that now, that parts need replacing much more frequently. Which is a bit depressing. The new parts are a Shimano Sora derailer and a Shimano Altus gear shifter. The old parts were Shimano Deore. So can I not expect a good service life from these parts? And why do they not last as long as parts apparently used to?
If i'd have got 20 years out original Deore parts, I'd be well chuffed TBH.
Can I also just check that you seem to be surprised that a man who's livelihood in part relies on people buying bike components from him, has told you that you need to buy bike components from him?
It's all a scam by Big Shifter...
SRAM, SRAM is the reason. Their BB's have always been universally rubbish, their mechs are made of cheese, their brakes have had umpteen issues, the Reverb is expensive, complicated and failure prone, etc, etc. About the only division that makes more reliable parts than the competition seems to be Rockshox. Their R&D seems geared around designing functionally better kit, but the testing is in ideal conditions.
That and they don't make "cheap" commuter group sets like Shimano. SRAM's version of trickle down is to take a £300 rear mech and make it from even cheaper aluminum bits until you get NX which is 12speed garbage. Whereas Deore is a melding of XTR and decades of making group sets for commuters and tourers.
Shimano stuff still lasts well, I wouldn't worry too much.
The only thing that's got measurably better over the years seems to be (higher spec) chains and by extension the drivetrain.
To qualify that I've got a box of SRAM mechs, some mangled, some imperceptibly bent, one was bent by nothing more substantial than deep mud. Whereas the Deore mech on my FS bike has several great big scuffs and gouges from rock strikes.
Things seem to be more 'race car' than 'family car' these days. Bikes perform great when new and if you keep them spotless and serviced you might get a few years out of them.
This is fine for your road bike or your mountain bike (recreational toys) but they seem to be applying the same principles to the bikes people use for commuting and these bikes will just stop working.
My current commuter has been neglected and ridden in shitty conditions (like all my previous commuter bikes) but on this one the brakes and the front mech have packed up before I've even worn through it's first chain.
The bike shop lad asked me how old the parts were, and they must be 20+ years old as the bike was bought new in 2003. I have had the chain and rear cogs replaced a few times. He exclaimed that nothing lasts anywhere near as long as that now, that parts need replacing much more frequently.
Assuming the 'bike shop lad' is actually a young person, how on earth would they know how long bike components 'used to last'? Technically they've probably spent less time on earth than your Deore components ...
It sounds like the usual made-up, grumpy, old bike shop owner /mechanic crap that he's picked up osmotically from the people he works with rather than any sort of evidence-based thing, My experience of several decades is that some stuff - brake pads for one - actually lasts longer then it used to, mostly though, it seems about the same.
Longevity relies on folks looking after their kit, which some seem increasingly reluctant to do. Despite @thisisnotaspoon ranting about SRAM parts, regular maintenance has meant that my 6 year old Enduro still has the same mech and shifter, the same Truativ chainset, and ultra reliable Code brakes. In fact some of the only things that have lasted from original are SRAM parts
I think there's a lot more expectation of big hitting things now, which are more likely to break things.
Also, I think tolerances are much tighter, 12 speed is definitely more fussy about well aligned hangers than 8 speed was. I imagine you can't get away with nearly as much rear mech slop as you used to.
I always liked that SRAM stuff seemed like it was intended to be user serviceable, you could pull apart and service their shifters easily, where when Shimano ones pretty much went in the bin when they started to fail to index.
Assuming the ‘bike shop lad’ is actually a young person, how on earth would they know how long bike components ‘used to last’? Technically they’ve probably spent less time on earth than your Deore components
Probably from seeing 20 year old stuff that works still, vs 2 year out broken stuff.
Longevity relies on folks looking after their kit, which some seem increasingly reluctant to do.
For recreational bikes, sure.
For commuter bikes, no. They should just work. And when they stop working it should be easily fixed.
Commuter bikes shouldn't have full length cables (let alone internal routing), clutch mechs, wide range cassettes, and (this one might be controversial) hydraulic disc brakes.
I know that cheap bikes mostly have this set up but if you want a decent bike a lot of these 'upgrade features' end up on there as well.
A good commuter should be robust even when neglected (and not have to resort hub gears). 90s mountain bikes and 00s CX bikes for the win as far as commuting bikes go, imo.
Deffo, every 3 to six months..
All of them at once 🙂
I have found that since I've had kids the components on all my bikes seem to last forever.
It's the use and maintenance (or lack thereof) that'll determine how long something lasts. I've seen 1yr old drivetrain parts absolutely shot to bits after a year of commuting in all weathers but the same parts on a "nice days only" road bike will last 5+ years.
Cheap shite like Tourney and Acera will fail much quicker than decent middle of the road stuff like SLX / XT. The real top end kit like XTR and Dura Ace will often sacrifice a bit of durability in the name of weight saving.
As for the shop mechanic, I think it's written into the contract of all bike mechanics that they must have 20:20 rose tinted vision and use the phrase "back in my day..." at every opportunity to describe how the bike industry now is nowhere near as good as it once was.
If i’d have got 20 years out original Deore parts, I’d be well chuffed TBH.
Well how long should things last? The rest of the bike is pretty much original, I changed the saddle. He was very impressed with the 'bottom bracket' axle, and said theres no way modern ones would last more than a couple of years with regular use. Really?
Assuming the ‘bike shop lad’ is actually a young person, how on earth would they know how long bike components ‘used to last’? Technically they’ve probably spent less time on earth than your Deore components
He's in his 40s. He said he much prefers older bikes as they are simpler and easier to work on, as well as parts lasting longer.
Longevity relies on folks looking after their kit
This times a million.
Also, the UK climate is a big factor regarding component longevity. Ride in sloppy, crappy weather and then chuck your bike straight into a cold, damp garage and see how long those metal parts last.
I think that the steady improvement in performance has led to an erosion of durability and a need to be in 'perfect' condition to maintain that performance.
I also think more parts are built to a budget, not a durability. I think this is why Shimano is changing a few things with Cues.
eBikes of course eat parts due to extra weight and power.
That said, I also think that a lot of folk now ride harder - and that battering into the terrain has a significant impact on parts.
Good examples are
- tyres - amazingly better than 1990's tyres, but that softness and grip costs durability.
- rear mech - more gears = needs to be more more carefully set up, less option to be 'a bit worn' as it just won't work properly.
Can I also just check that you seem to be surprised that a man who’s livelihood in part relies on people buying bike components from him, has told you that you need to buy bike components from him?
I bought the parts online (on his advice), as he said he cannot stock anywhere near the range of options that is needed now. He makes his living from service charges not from profits on parts much, because he said the profit margins are so low for independents like him. So he's actually buying parts online as and when needed, as it's cheaper for him to do that than order from a supplier.
Well how long should things last?
There's no answer to that. It depends on too many variables doesn't it. Any bike, like any mechanical object, will need looking after, and what environment its used in will dictate how frequently it needs it. If you only ever ride the bike on dry days and are fastidious about cleaning it it will massively effect the lifespan compared to something that gets used in all weathers and just pushed back into the shed at the end of the day.
For commuter bikes, no. They should just work. And when they stop working it should be easily fixed.
Sorry, but this is nonsense. My commuter (like all my other bikes) never needs fixing, because I maintain it properly. Commuter bikes can have any components you want on them, and they need to be able to 'go' at the drop of a hat, if you need to fix something on your bike before that happens, that's on you, not anything to do with bike components.
The classic thing used to be to buy Deore chainrings as they were made out of steel, cheap and last multiple times longer than the next level up groupset
Deore is no longer cheap - not sure if they are still made out of steel?
Commuter bikes shouldn’t have full length cables (let alone internal routing), clutch mechs, wide range cassettes, and (this one might be controversial) hydraulic disc brakes.
for a bike used in all weathers I'd want full length cables. Internal probably a needless faff though.
clutch mechs and wide range cassettes come part and parcel with the 1x drivetrain, which is a godsend for the more casual user (one button for easier, one button for faster)
hydraulic brakes similarly I'd spec from a idiot friendly point of view. the self adjusting pads means you can get years and thousands of miles of road/towpath use without doing anything to them.
Maintainence issues while I've aimed at the less serious cyclist, are probably equally applicable to the enthusiast who will baby and fettle their weekend play thing, but want their commuter to go out 5 days a week year round with no work needed.
Yes and no IMHO. Your old stuff was Deore 9 speed. Probably the best generation of Shimano stuff shimano ever made in terms of durability, it used a well honed design from generations of kit before it, and was the last series they made using that system where all the bits were replaceable, before the new 10 speed came out and everything started to get a bit throwaway, a problem now accelerated by the 11 and 12speed kit that places extra strain and wear on all parts causing premature wear (relative to say 9 speed) while also requiring far tighter tolerances to work right.
Now you're replacing it with also 9-speed. Except now rather than being over engineered 2003 MTB kit you're replacing it with made-to-a-budget 2024 commuter kit, and so you should expect it won't last as long. Sorry! However if you'd had made-to-a-budget shimano stuff, or anything SRAM from back then, you'd probably not be using it 20y later, so it does depend on what it was still.
Sorry, but this is nonsense. My commuter (like all my other bikes) never needs fixing, because I maintain it properly. Commuter bikes can have any components you want on them, and they need to be able to ‘go’ at the drop of a hat, if you need to fix something on your bike before that happens, that’s on you, not anything to do with bike components.
Sorry, but that's nonsense.
My 90s mountain bike that I used for years just works. I replace stuff when it wears out. I re-wax the chain when I think it needs it. That's it.
My 2021 commuter just doesn't work. Like I said, I haven't even worn a chain out yet and already the brakes are knackered, the front shifter is knackered, the rear mech sometimes shifts down but often doesn't, and if I keep using it as a commuter I'm sure more problems will emerge.
Two bikes with the same attention/maintenance. The 2.5 year old one is just not fit for purpose compared to the 25 year old one.
I've just welcomed the first 1-by bike into our household. It will also be the last. Rear mech and cassette look like they'll last about 5 rides.
XT shifters on my 2001 bike still work perfectly, everything else has been changed a couple of times at least, but I guess I've been getting about 7 years out of rings and mechs on average. Just got an expensive new old stock XT front mech, 2000 year, expect that to last forever with a bit of occasional lube
Like I said, I haven’t even worn a chain out yet and already the brakes are knackered, the front shifter is knackered, the rear mech sometimes shifts down but often doesn’t
So, are you saying that the components that are on the bike are of poorer quality than you expected, or that components that can last a couple of years or more un-maintained don't exist, or that you chose poorly?
It’s not really time, it’s mileage and how clean/lubed it’s been during that mileage.
Exactly. I've always reckoned that riding off road in the mud and gravel is about 5x as hard on the drivetrain as commuting with a nicely lubed chain. Steel Deore stuff will last for years on a commuter bike, higher-end aluminium stuff will be knackered in a year from regular off-road riding.
Yes and no IMHO. Your old stuff was Deore 9 speed. Probably the best generation of Shimano stuff shimano ever made in terms of durability, it used a well honed design from generations of kit before it, and was the last series they made using that system where all the bits were replaceable, before the new 10 speed came out and everything started to get a bit throwaway, a problem now accelerated by the 11 and 12speed kit that places extra strain and wear on all parts causing premature wear (relative to say 9 speed) while also requiring far tighter tolerances to work right.
That's interesting. Like most people I suspect, I just want my bike to work with minimal fuss. I don't need it to win the Tour de France, I just want to get from A to B. It is 9 speed; I remember that being the standard back then. Cheaper bikes had less gears. It's a shame that parts are less reliable now; Cycling is supposed to be a more sustainable form of transport.
Now you’re replacing it with also 9-speed. Except now rather than being over engineered 2003 MTB kit you’re replacing it with made-to-a-budget 2024 commuter kit, and so you should expect it won’t last as long. Sorry! However if you’d had made-to-a-budget shimano stuff, or anything SRAM from back then, you’d probably not be using it 20y later, so it does depend on what it was still.
That's a shame. I understand the Deore was 'mid-range' kit back then, and Sora is fairly close in terms of quality. I could't get a new Deore derailer because it has more gears now and I'd have had to spend a lot more money to buy more new parts.
or that components that can last a couple of years or more un-maintained don’t exist,
This.
benpinnck probably nailed the reasons for this above. There was a period of peak simplicity, performance, serviceability, and robustness 20 odd years ago that hasn't been matched since.
It’s a shame that parts are less reliable now;
They're not.
My peak riding was as a teenager in the late 90s/early 2000s. My mates and I used to break shit all the bloody time. Frames seemed particularly fragile, lost count of the number of warranty Marins i had, and similar stories with friends' Oranges and Treks.
Then there were the Shimano shifters that constantly snapped ratchets, the Pace forks that seemed to break on every ride, the 521s that couldn't take a decent hit, the RS forks that would blow damper cartridges for fun, the constantly warrantied Fox Vanilla R etc etc. the only things that spring to mind from around then that didn't need constant attention seemed to be Bombers and Hope stuff. I did weekend work in a bike shop and it was the same story.
Fast forward to now and I've got forks from there manufacturers that just see a lowers service every year and keep on trucking, frames that seem far more reliable, pedals that seem to take abuse mega well, drivetrains that just seen to need the occasional hanger straightening and new inner.
I'm heavier and clumsier than I was, but anecdotally to me, stuff is just so much better now. My bikes are mostly a mix of mid range stuff and it's brilliant.
Except Shimano brakes. I'm in double digits for weeping calipers now.
They’re not.
But several people here are suggesting they are?
that hasn’t been matched since.
How d'you know? I mean, if you're measuring longevity then the only measure is well; time, and newer components are newer. Nothing lasts like a component that's lasted longer...If you're going to say "all components now haven't lasted as long as the particular parts on my particular bike from the 90's" there's no response to that other than "we'll see..."
There may be someone right now with the same parts that have failed on your bike that is sailing along more than happily...That its not you is not indicative of anything.
Could be.
But the consensus seems to be if you don't look after stuff it's not going to last (even you have said that).
The kit we're talking about on this thread has had 20 years of neglect and still going strong (or rather only just breaking now). Perhaps there are a huge silent majority who haven't washed or lubed anything on their 3/4/5 year old bikes going merrily on their way but I somehow doubt it.
But several people here are suggesting they are?
And..?
Some parts will last, others will get smashed into rocks, some will be cherished, some folks will get lucky and their cheaply made mass produced parts will last decades, just because. Other folks will have those same parts last 2 rides and it'll self destruct into a shower of shiny but useless bits. It's a lottery, some you win (20 year old Deore parts) some you loose (buying a bike with duff bits)
The kit we’re talking about on this thread has had 20 years of neglect and still going strong
Your familiar with the concept of survivor bias, right?
I mean take any point in just this forum's history and I will guarantee you that there's going to be some-one posting about just how shit and short lived the very same parts are that you're singing the praises of.
It is 9 speed; I remember that being the standard back then. Cheaper bikes had less gears
I think you've hit the nail with this comment.
12 is now the "standard*" for road and mountain. cheaper bikes have less gears.
(and 20 years before your 9 speed, the standard was 5 gears, so its actually slowed down!).
As Ben says, 9 speed now is lower end stuff, made to a price point. Buying a new 9 speed mech now is like buying some 6 speed junker plastic mech with thumb shifters back in 2003. Unless you can find some new-old-stock in the back of a warehouse somewhere.
*of course, shimano is about to ride in and "save the day with the new CUES stuff which is 9, 10 or 11 speed and supposedly made for durability and e-bike power... but will be incompatible with existing 9 speed.
Longevity relies on folks looking after their kit,
Is a fair point, for serviceable kit. Forks will last longer if given the occasional lower leg service for example.
which some seem increasingly reluctant to do. Despite @thisisnotaspoon ranting about SRAM parts, regular maintenance has meant that my 6 year old Enduro still has the same mech and shifter
But a BB is a BB, it's not user serviceable, it only has 7 parts in total usually! Yes I know some people take the seals of the bearings with a pick and pack with unobtanium grease, but that's just saying it wasn't good enough when it left the factory, but with more steps.
Mechs, I've not ever had to replace a SRAM jockey wheel, the mechs always bent first, at least 6 of them.
I've never bent a Shimano mech.
So it's gone beyond reasonable doubt for me that SRAM mechs are fragile.
Brakes, the master cylinder pistons swell. It might be a tolerance thing that doesn't affect every set, but 3 out of 5 sets of AVID/SRAM brakes I've had have failed like that. At least now you can get metal ones from China.
The reverb died twice, once the hose connector went (early external hose type) which is the sort of problem that really should have been apparent if they'd tested it adequately. Then the IFP leaked like every reverb.
SRAM do make some good stuff and push the envelope out for performance. But they really do need to take a step back and fix some of their issues. You wouldn't buy a motorbike and accept that Honda/Yamaha/KTM had fitted plastic brake pistons that failed on 3 out of 5 bikes? But somehow that's normal in mountainbikes costing as much as the motorbikes!
Since Shimano introduced Shadow rear mechs... they last forever. I'd suggest current Deore will last even longer than the mechs made 20 years ago.
I have had the chain and rear cogs replaced a few times.
That'll help keep the jockey wheels alive as well.
He’s in his 40s. He said he much prefers older bikes as they are simpler and easier to work on, as well as parts lasting longer.
Back In The Day, you had much less choice of kit. Therefore it was easy to replace stuff because most bikes used (broadly) the same basic components that were (broadly) cross compatible. You got a MTB, you could be pretty certain that virtually any triple chainset would fit on it, maybe requiring a new square taper BB if the length was a bit off. Any bike shop would have half a dozen Shimano UNxx BB's lying around the place, they'd pretty much all fit.
Now there are whole warehouses of options for every part on a bike, much of it requiring proprietary or specific fixings so it's certainly more confusing and no shop could ever hope to stock a full range of even basic consumables like bearings. How many BB standards are there now?!
Re the SRAM comments. I’m still using their XX1 stuff from 2018 and 12,000 miles. It hasn’t given me any issues at all in that time apart from consumable replacements like jockey wheels, cassettes and chainrings. Even then I found this lasts waaaay longer than the Shimano equivalents.
My SRAM brakes died last year so a pretty decent run from them too. All my Shimano brakes have leaked at the caliper and ended up in landfill.
Personally I think that stuff lasts longer than it used to 30 years ago but you have to spend a bit more / be selective to get the longevity. Alivio / Deore stuff is generally consumable items that I would expect to chuck in a bin after a couple of years although it’s time Shimano started making their bits user serviceable
Sorry, but this is nonsense. My commuter (like all my other bikes) never needs fixing, because I maintain it properly. Commuter bikes can have any components you want on them, and they need to be able to ‘go’ at the drop of a hat, if you need to fix something on your bike before that happens, that’s on you, not anything to do with bike components.
I sort of agree, but a reasonable expectation of a commuter bike should (IMO) be able to do a 'Monday to Friday' set of journeys (assuming you do a 5 day week) without needing to be touched till the weekend. and then that weekend preventative maintenance shouldn't need to be too involved either i.e. a "routine" clean and application of lubricants, perhaps periodically change a tyre/Chain/Cassette/cable/brake pads, a big annual strip and rebuild isn't a crazy notion but with all of that I would expect a mech to last years. Parts to wear out over time and 20 years innings assuming regular use and basic maintenance isn't bad.
It's interesting (to me) that the OP went in with a 9 speed Deore mech and came out with a 9 speed Sora fitted, you could sort of argue this is about equivalent (Sora is about the best 9 speed option still in production outside of CUES (Discuss)), and obviously means the bike stays on the came cable pull as it's old Deore (if that really matters). Fundamentally the new parts are made about the same way from the same basic materials (stamped and cast bit of Al/Steel with some moulded nylon housings?) the specific product line name doesn't make much difference finish and weight might not be to everyone's tastes, but they do the job right?
In terms of performance/longevity I'd kind of expect a modern 9 speed Altus shifter/Sora Mech to last about as long as the Deore parts that they replaced but it's notable that they didn't try to move you on to a modern 10 or 11 speed equivalent set of bits as that would have meant flogging you a whole new drivetrain (i.e. new mechs/Cassettes/chain/chainrings/shifters) and a chunk more labour. I suspect they could tell you weren't up for more than the minimum level of spend to keep the bike rolling.
Out of interest did they offer/give you the parts back that they'd removed OP?