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But a BB is a BB, it’s not user serviceable
None of them are, They're a couple of bearings right in the firing line of the muck and crap we like to ride through. They're a consumable item, and built and priced as consumable.
I've just bought my second set of jockey wheels for my XO1 mech, that's 6 years old and scratched to shit but is otherwise perfectly serviceable, and I never had any issues with any Shimano mechs I've ever owned either. I've never had the seal problem with either the Guides or the Codes that I'm currently using, although again, I never had any issues with any Shimano 'wandering bite point brakes' either.
I experienced the infamous unfixable XT wandering bite point, had ignored it getting worse until it failed on a downhill. Bled it a year ago and it's been fine since.
Hope BBs (and others) have replaceable bearings. Endurobearings and Chris King (and others) have user serviceable bearings. Sram and Shimano BB are soon for the bin... (the former well before the later, in my experience, but both have a short life really).
I don't think parts are less durable now, too broad a statement anyway (apart from comparing modern 2pc crank BBs to square taper BBs.. that's 10, maybe 20x difference).
The points about time being pointless as a measure if we don't have other measurements, and 9-speed XT then Vs 9-speed Alivio now, have been made - the other point is how much closer tolerance some parts are in order to get faster shifts or a lighter lever feel, so we hit the wear limit sooner.
Anecdotally some 12s stuff seems to have a very good rep for durability now.
And in all this I'm tempted to think the lube type and how/when/if you clean you bike makes more difference to longevity than the variability of different parts under the same use and maintenance regime.
The new LinkGlide stuff (aka CUES) is significantly more durable and tolerant of minimal maintenance than other 11 or 12 speed stuff. I’ve got 11 speed on my ebike which is used for commuting and gnarlier MTBing (it’s my only full-sus) and it’s lasting much better than SLX 11 speed. For a commuter I’d get the 9 speed version. I’m planning to change to a 10 speed cassette when this one is worn out.
I'm 4 years, 3 bikes, and about 3000 all season mtb miles (including multiple uplifts and multiple Welsh storms) into a 12s Deore mech. All it's needed was a clutch regrease. Modern Deore is brilliant.
Hmmmm… it’s all very subjective. Some stuff used to last longer but it often wasn’t as finely tuned or precise so the system was more tolerant to wear. This is especially true of friction shift stuff.
But old school headsets and bottom brackets were a pain. Loose ball BBs needed adjusting and greasing all the time. Hubs used to suffer from bent and broken axles and chrome and rustless spokes were crap. As for tyres… they were awful. Don’t get me started on things like screw on freewheels that self destructed after riding through a muddy puddle.
1994(?) STX 8 speed was working fine when I swapped to 9 a couple years ago and I only changed in order to fit discs and the brake levers were integrated. In fact th rear mech is still going strong with a nine speed set up.
I currently run 2 bikes
One is drop bar with shimano 10 speed. Durability seems to similar to everything I’ve owned before, going back to 5 speed.
I also own a 12 speed gx mountain bike. Brakes are great, they just need new pads. Chain and cassette seems fine. Maybe a bit more picky on set up but hardly a different league. It’s had a few chains but in the original cassette
However
The rear gx derailleur wore out. I have never worn out a rear derailleur before.
Threaded DUB bottom bracket. What a joke. I think my bikes on its 4th. Bloke next to me at work is on his 5th or 6th. Much worse than anything i have used before
My Hope brakes haven’t been completely ignorable but one set is over 10 years old, one set over 5 years old, with no plans to replace them for a long time. Similar with Hope BBs (with 24mm axle Shimano cranks). And Hope hubs and headsets. Not cheap but good value in the long run.
GXP was terrible too. You had to fit a Hope! But then again all external BBs seem to wear faster than the good Shimano square taper and even splined internal types.
Commuter bikes shouldn’t have full length cables (let alone internal routing), clutch mechs, wide range cassettes, and (this one might be controversial) hydraulic disc brakes.
Yeah, most (all) of that is just bollocks. Hydro and Di2 makes for almost no maintenance and totally predictable performance in all weathers.
33490km on the same mechs, same battery, same brakes, same bearings (King everywhere) and 2 full GRX 11 drivetrains (rings, chain and cassette) along with additional chains (4 in total). Seems fairly reliable to me.
Probably from seeing 20 year old stuff that works still, vs 2 year out broken stuff.
Yeah right, because he also saw all the 20 year-old stuff that broke after two years when he was but a toddler... It's just one of those crappy 'everything used to be better / last longer / smell nicer' myths. Plus people who work in bike shops probably get a distorted idea of breakages because, guess what, not many people come in and say, hey look, could you replace my brakes / mech / stem / pedals / whatever as they are NOT BROKEN.
Stuff has always broken. Stuff will always break. It's just how mountain biking is. Obviously some brands specialise in broken things - Cane Creek, Hope (sorry people) - but people love a good moan about how stuff always used to be better etc.
ps: Isis bottom brackets, they lasted for ages... ahem. :-/
Deore stuff was pretty good quality back in the day, the highpoint of value was probably Dx. Meanwhile , down in the basement where people rode stuff like Exage trail (farmyard) things broke pretty often, particularly hubs and bb's as I recall.
I'll have Bruce on thinking commuter bikes shouldn't have hydraulic brakes as they are way less maintenance than V's, let alone canti's, unless you mean working just means flapping around hopelessly.
I'll admit, hydraulic disc brakes work great an are maintenance free. Until you take them out of the shed one day and the pads are scraping the away happily on the discs (see my thread from the other day). Then they are very much not maintenance free.
The worst that can happen with Vs is that the rubbing is annoying, rather than making the bike unrideable.
Also, fixing problems with Vs is easy. I don't really have the option of firing up the compressor at 10 at night so I can disassemble the calipers, get the pistons out, clean the pistons, ,clean the calipers, reassemble, and then thoroughly bleed.
I suspect you guys might not be commuting in quite the same conditions as me. Or you just never discovered the joys of non-full length XTR cables. Pretty much maintenance free and when it isn't maintenance free it's takes around 10 seconds to solve.
Stuff has always broken. Stuff will always break. It’s just how mountain biking is. Obviously some brands specialise in broken things – Cane Creek, Hope (sorry people) – but people love a good moan about how stuff always used to be better etc.
I’m old enough to have the experienced the early 90s lightweight craze where everything broke.
- Purple x-lite bars that snapped going down a kerb.
- Pace RC35s where the dropouts unbonded from the legs and stopped working when it rained.
- Crappy Shimano groupset like GS and exage
- Constant replacement of canti and v brake pads
- Pitted Shimano hubs after 2 months
- Flexy steel and ti frames that snapped
It wasn’t any better 30 years ago; it was worse!
Yeah, most (all) of that is just bollocks. Hydro and Di2 makes for almost no maintenance and totally predictable performance in all weathers.
This. The ultimate in reliability and near-zero maintenance on a commuter bike would be a Di2 hub gear (Alfine 8 or 11) with a belt drive and hydraulic disc brakes.
That said, a mate of mine has a stripped down hydro disc-braked touring bike set up as his commuter. 1x drivetrain and the cheapest parts that retain durability and reliability. It's his year-round commuter doing most miles on canal towpaths and old railway lines so it gets absolutely covered in gritty muddy shite (in spite of running full proper mudguards with maximum extensions).
He hoses it off once a week, pops some lube on it and accepts that the drivetrain will last a year before all needing to be replaced. The GRX shifters have stayed fine, it's just the drivetrain parts and brake pads he replaces.
The worst that can happen with Vs is that the rubbing is annoying, rather than making the bike unrideable.
Until you wear through the rims.
Older shifters generally last forever, this seems odd.
I’m old enough to have the experienced the early 90s lightweight craze where everything broke.
Yes, I'm amazed by modern XC bikes. 25 years ago, XC bikes were basically like gravel bikes with flat bars. A modern 29" XC bike is a couple of pounds heavier than an old 26" XC bike but has brakes that work, suspension that can suck up stuff that you needed a DH bike for back then, and tyres that roll fast and grip like shit to a blanket.
Deore stuff was pretty good quality back in the day
The current Deore 12s is REALLY good.
Well, really good in the sense it just works smoothly without any sort of faff or things breaking. The only negative is the cassette being so big and heavy it keeps spinning when you stop pedaling abruptly!
The Entry level / mid-tier MTB market is in a bit of a golden age at the moment. Between good kit and big discounts we're back to a level where £1500-£2000 FS bikes from a lot of brands are genuinely only incrementally not as good as the superbikes rather than it being just a couple of examples of good bikes from non-mainstream brands. Yes XX1 AXS and Pike Ultimate's are better than Deore and Z2's, but it's at a point where you have to sit down and explain in quite a boring way why they're better.
Yes, I’m amazed by modern XC bikes. 25 years ago, XC bikes were basically like gravel bikes with flat bars. A modern 29″ XC bike is a couple of pounds heavier than an old 26″ XC bike but has brakes that work, suspension that can suck up stuff that you needed a DH bike for back then, and tyres that roll fast and grip like shit to a blanket.
+1
And it's across all levels too. My Escarpe is from a distance not that different to my old (heavily upgraded) Pitch. Except when you ride it every single thing is better. Well not everything, but the bit's that aren't cost <1/3rd the bits on the Pitch did and are damn close in performance/weight.
I’m old enough to have the experienced the early 90s [...] where everything broke
More like. It wasn't just the lightweight stuff that was terrible, it was all pretty terrible. essentially roadie kit pressed into service as off road capable when mostly it just wasn't. Riding in the early noughties; every group ride I went on stopped for a mechanical or puncture (or 3). I still carry all those tools around with me now, but I genuinely can't remember the last time I used a multi-tool to actually fix anything. I might have adjusted something or tightened it a bit, but had to fix something that's broken? Ages ago.
Bollocks vees are better than discs for a commuter! The braking is worse for half the year, they wear out the rims, and crucially, you have to keep wheels in true to stop them rubbing.
I used mechanical discs and they were a pain having to take up the wear with the pad adjusters. This was when I could, because the adjuster hadn't seized, which happened a lot.
If your discs are fine until your pads run out and then you have trouble, then that shit maintenance would have similar ramifications for rim brakes.
Stuff changes, technology moves on.. Sometimes progress is good. This thread seems to have some very loud voices from either people who don't realize how bad a lot of kit used to actually be, or people who are still on cottered cranks and rod brakes because they 'don't need any new fangled stuff'
Unlike the above I have had to use various tools quite a few times on group rides.. And it's almost always older kit (and also lack of maintenance)
Well 50 years ago, everything was mechanical. You could take a bike apart and put it back together with a few basic tools. Imagine having a go fixing pro time-trial or e-bikes now.
Having said that, some companies have better standards than others. All Shimano gear is made in just a few factories so QC is very good - it's pretty rare something crap is released. You just pay more for lighter/stronger materials and better function.
It does stand to reason the more moving parts on something, the more likely it is to break/the more maintenance it will need. Chains are a good example - much thinner than they used to be (11spd versus 8spd) but work well if you maintain them and change gear more.
I would say overall, yes, parts wear out more quickly - an old 3 speed town bike from 1943 could still be going but I can't imagine a Specialized Venge being usable in 50 years. But you pay in weight!
I’ve not really found SRAM components to least any shorter than Shimano in the last 15 years (apart from their BBs which were crap back in the day). Whether that is because I look after my kit and am not a ham-fisted mechanic could be the reason.
I had to be some a decent mechanic and look after stuff early on as I was too poor to buy replacements, so a broken mech or brake would result in a bodged single speed FS bike or running 1 brake until I’d saved up a few pay days.
Bare in mind when you go to a shop their definition of worn out is on the basis of a professional giving you back a fully repaired bike, with no further issues to the repaired/replaced parts. It is an attempt (not always successful and subject to varying standards of workmanship) to prevent a stream of dissatisfied customers rolling back through the doors.
With bicycle drivetrains it is much easier to do this by replacing the lot with brand new components. Which in theory and the vast majority of the time are perfectly straight, free from damage/wear, with all pivot points, bearings, bushings and fixings to factory spec. Would you risk your reputation over a worn slightly bent mech?
Of all the components on bikes, bottom brackets are the worst for increased frequency of repair compared to the old square tapered standard.
With bicycle drivetrains it is much easier to do this by replacing the lot with brand new components. Which in theory and the vast majority of the time are perfectly straight, free from damage/wear, with all pivot points, bearings, bushings and fixings to factory spec.
That's very true but it's also a reflection of how much people maintain (or not) their bike. So many bikes get ridden, occasionally cleaned/lubed and only get taken to a shop when something is noticeably wrong by which point the entire drivetrain is usually all worn together so the only realistic option is replacing the lot.
I don't do that, I keep my drivetrain cleaned and I check it and replace the chain when required so it never needs "the whole lot" replacing in one go.
Bike shops are not a great barometer of what does/doesn't work and last because, by definition, they're only seeing what's broken. Also you'd be amazed at the customers who take a bike in for a "quick gear service" and are then astonished to find that the service is going to cost £300 of parts and labour because everything is wrecked. It's a testament to how good and reliable most bikes are that they actually keep working in those conditions.
Bollocks vees are better than discs for a commuter!
Really seems to have touched a nerve with some folk.
I suggest you come up to Scandinavia and try riding a bike with Shimano brakes through the winter ( keeping it in the shed) doing no maintenance and then tell me how awesome disc brakes are for commuters.
Until you wear through the rims.
I remember the last time I had a rim wear through. It was 25 years ago. Turns out these days it takes a long time to wear out a rim and it's very easy to check if it's getting time to change.
Not having the rims as a consumable is definitely a plus, but I'll still take rim brakes on a commuter any day of the week.
Worn rims was a regular issue when I was working in an Edinburgh bike shop - and then folk wouldn't believe that their most cost-effective option was a new wheel.
Just go fixed and have done with it.
Yep, brakeless fixed and all I have to worry about is changing the chain now and again, with rear cog and chainwheel every god knows when as they typically get changed for gearing reasons throughout the year.
Only other thing that needs some maintenance is lower headset bearing as I ride in rain with no mudguards but getting an SS bearing to hopefully help with that.
First (and only) rim I exploded was less than a year old. Since then I've getting years and years before having to change.
As others on here keep saying, technology (and materials) improve and some stuff unquestionably gets better.
Worn rims was a regular issue when I was working in an Edinburgh bike shop – and then folk wouldn’t believe that their most cost-effective option was a new wheel.
Yep - it's one thing to wear out a carbon road rim but the sort of people buying that kind of kit know that anyway.
But on a cheapo commuter bike with a rider who doesn't know or care, it's a real shock when they wheel their £200 bike into a shop for some basic repair work to be told that their rims are almost worn through and that it'll be £200 on a new set of wheels.
The response almost invariably being that if the whole bike cost £200, how can a set of wheels cost the same?!
I suggest you come up to Scandinavia
You’ll forgive folk for not considering it though? Would be a hell of a commute for most on here to get to work via Helsinki
I suggest you come up to Scandinavia
I suggest you accompany me to Mawsynram and let's see how your rim brakes cope with my particular random unexpected use case.
None of my 8 bikes come out of the garage with discs rubbing after having been used, cleaned (or not) and put away after a ride. Either your shed is incredibly damp and is causing the seals to swell slightly or you’ve not got them set up correctly in the first place.
The only time my discs ever rub is when it’s absolutely pouring down, I’ve been out in it for 40+ minutes and I’m out of the saddle pedalling. That’s seal swell and it will go away as soon as I use the brakes and definitely won’t be there the next time I use the bike.
None of my 8 bikes come out of the garage with discs rubbing after having been used, cleaned (or not) and put away after a ride.
Why don't you do a bit of googling about Shimano brakes in sub-zero conditions. Anyway, if you've got 8 bikes I guess you're not riding each one 5-7 days a week so we aren't really talking about the same thing here, are we?
I suggest you accompany me to Mawsynram
OK, you bring your bike and I'll bring mine. I can (and have) use parts from bikes I've pulled out of skips for spares and repairs. Let's see who can keep their bike going longest.
My SRAM 11 speed derailleurs only seem to last me a couple of years or so before shifting/holding line starts to go off and no amount of fettling can help,I'm guessing pin wear causes this or maybe just too many bramble tugs. In contrast I have a 13 year old Zee 10 speed derailleur that still functions and feels great on my old 26er hardtail.
Brucewee + submarined in a bike packing.com challenge to meet in the middle and see who has had least faff with their brakes 😀
The worst that can happen with Vs is that the rubbing is annoying, rather than making the bike unrideable.
Also, fixing problems with Vs is easy. I don’t really have the option of firing up the
1997-2004 I remember cursing v brakes after:
-spending hours in the garage stopping them rubbing
-Truing the wheels repeatedly to stop them rubbing
-pulling the brakes and getting nothing, then everything when wet
-pulling the brakes and having the cable pull through
-faffing with noodles
-faffing with worn/ damaged cables
-being 300 miles from home and staring at the rim that had exploded after wearing through
-replacing pads
-replacing pads
-replacing pads
-replacing the whole brake as they were worn out
Then I got a front disk, then a rear heaven!
I've spent a significant time faffing and cursing disk brakes since, but nothing like v's
I've done 700 miles on my current commuter. It had it's first puncture yesterday. The SRAM brakes, gx 12 gears have all been faultless.
1997-2004 I remember cursing v brakes after:
I remember a similar level of faff in the 90s.
I think the lesson here is that Vs just aren't good for mountain biking. But then that was never the discussion we were having.
I've almost worn through my last set of D521s on my commuter so I am getting a bit concerned about what to replace them with (Ryde Anda 40s looking like the best candidate, hoping they aren't made of cheese). But the XT shifter components are all just as good as the day I fitted them over 30 years ago. Again though, they aren't going to last forever and I'm worried that the 8 speed stuff available now is going to be like going back to running Alivio in 1997.
I guess it shouldn't really be surprising that a bike that you build to go 'proper' mountain biking in the year 2000 can handle commuting duties with absolutely no problems.
Why don’t you do a bit of googling about Shimano brakes in sub-zero conditions. Anyway, if you’ve got 8 bikes I guess you’re not riding each one 5-7 days a week so we aren’t really talking about the same thing here, are we?
Truthfully, I have no idea what you’re talking about or what you’re trying to prove? My commuter gets used 4 times a week for two hours a day in all weathers. The others get used interchangeably depending on weekend and evening rides. But sporadic use should be worse for the bike, not better. Half of my bikes have Shimano or SRAM brakes the rest are Hope, so a good sample and still no problems.
You’re suggesting problems with modern equipment that simply doesn’t exist in the larger population. Sure, there will be some issues and those will be the most vocal and evident, but there will be a significant silent majority for whom it all just works, so no need to say anything.
EDIT - I’m showing a small population of bikes, all with Hydro brakes and electric shifting or internal routing that require almost no maintenance beyond drivetrain, pad and tyre wear and that function perfectly each time they’re used.
Truthfully, I have no idea what you’re talking
So, you didn't bother googling anything?
Not had any issues with old stuff or new(ish) stuff.
I'm running Dura Ace, Ultegra/600 and Deore XT/LX components that are 30 plus years old. My commuter is on LX/XT.
Compared to 10 year old 105, new stuff has lots more plastic. SRAM X9 mech is definitely alot more skelatal compared to old stuff. Cranks are scooped out or hollow, not solid chunks of aluminium.
The desire for lighter weight and more and more gear range has meant more fragile designs, but Ive not had to replace components. GXP and hollowtech BB's aren't as long lasting as square taper.
Comparing an old 8 speed XT mech to a newer 10 speed, the old one clearly doesn't have the range as its much more compact, but its a much sturdier and probably heavier design. The cage is probably twice the thickness with a steel backplate
So the consensus here is that parts DO need replacing more often these days. Thanks for your replies.
At some point, my bike will probably need replacing, as surely the frame will eventually give up. One issue the bike shop guy told me about, is that the wheels are 26", and modern bikes have larger wheels, so getting replacements might become difficult. They are fine for now however, so hopefully will see a few more years use. My wife's bike is even older, and had new wheels around 15 years ago. Her bike has had more replacement parts over time, but I think this is because hers was a cheaper bike to begin with. She's had about 4 new sets of gear shifters. Her brakes were changed to v-brakes around the same time I bought my bike, as it was clear they were better than her old style ones. We've had a couple of sets of mudguards each, they seem to get a lot of scrapes and bashes. But overall we're pretty happy. Our bikes might not be in the same league as many of yours, but then we're only going a few miles at a time. My bike colleague spends thousands on bikes, has several and is always complaining about something going wrong on one or other of them! But he and others have helped me sort out little things on the bikes and keep the brakes maintained and that. But they don't get all that much attention. I probably could have changed the derailer myself, but it's a fiddly job and the chain etc is so filthy I was happy to pay someone else to do it!
