[Closed] DIY trails damaging land and unsafe

I understand that you may disagree with them, but can you really be surprised? It's a big part of MTB for riders now, and it's not going to change any time soon.

Its a big part for a vocal minority of riders

Nah. Most just do it quietly and without fuss.

Yeah of course it's a minority. It'd be a right mess if everyone was at it.

FTFY

You'd not agree that digging trails has got way more popular and cooler the last few years?

It has, yes. It would be interesting if anyone has detailed demographic studies on this though especially given the general influx of people to mountain biking without a long history in the outdoors and the general monetisation that has been possible as a result.

Not a criticism per se, but when multiple trends occur in a relatively small population in a similar period there may well be a link - although obviously digging has been part of the scene for a very long time.

I'll post this here but feel free to stick it in the article Mods:

With the recent reports on unsanctioned mountain bike trail building making headlines it is clear to see the challenges we have in our sport between sanctioned trails (trail centres etc.) and unsanctioned wild trails.

The Tweed Valley Trail Association (Scottish Charitable Incorporated Organisation (SC047179)) has been formed to facilitate, co-ordinate and aid in the management of the wild trail network. The TVTAs purpose is simple - adopt wild trails to ensure they are built and maintained to required standards, co-ordinate and fund volunteer groups to maintain & build trails through working co-operatively with land owners such as the Forestry Commission, councils and private landowners. Having a co-ordinated voice empowered to bring together the fantastic trail builders and trail building groups means we can legitimise the wild trail network and ultimately help make more great trails in the Tweed Valley. Minimising conflict in shared use areas between walkers, cyclists, horse owners and land owners is a key focus and we are promoting shared use zones similar to successful schemes in NZ, Canada and Europe.

The TVTA board meets monthly and is about to launch its Website with opportunities to support through donations, request support for trail building equipment, undertake training and get general advice. Firstly we aim to adopt our first wild trail network in the near future.

Confict such as that reported is unhelpful for all parties concerned and while we don't expect miracles we feel that being active and engaging formally will give trail building a voice and allow the network to thrive, expand and increase the riding opportunities for all.

Posted on behalf of the TVTA Board.

The lawyer in this case is going to be working for the injured party in all likelihood unless the claim has got particularly contentious.

.........

Admittedly, riders should take some responsibility for their own crashes, but being sued by your own insurance if you claimed on it would be an insane position. Possibly there’s a wider conversation to be had about the entire concept of insuring yourself against injury while taking risks.

I totally get who would be chasing who to try and recover any money paid out. My point is the ultimate responsibility [i]should[/i] stop with the rider.

What if the rider injured themselves on a trail they had built, what if it was even on their own land? What if the rider injured themselves riding off a natural (not built feature), say a cliff for example? Where does the blame culture stop?

I guess as long as people have insurance or feel the need for compensation in the event of an injury there will always be someone looking to shift the financial burden.

You'd not agree that digging trails has got way more popular and cooler the last few years?

Edit: can't comment on Scotland, As I don't know the seen and I don't know the history of areas like the tweed valley. My comment relates to the SE of England.

We've been building on a piece of FC land local to me (Scotland), building new trails after the existing one's were destroyed by clearfelling.
FC are quite happy with this so long as we follow their guidelines, e.g no built drops, no woodwork features, no built jumps etc. Using natural features is fine including drops, but we must put chicken lines in.
Also slow riders before coming on to footpaths etc.
They've been up and checked our trails and they seem pretty happy, said our last trail was extreme though 8) .
They now want to meet us and formalise things a bit more. They're even willing to put up fences to slow riders where they meet footpaths etc.
Future looks good 😀 .
They even want us to help replant the area in the new year.

Best of luck with that...every chance it starts out very positively but soon becomes a millstone to slow progress. Hopefully not, but plenty examples of it even now.
A difficult situation for the FC (who manage the land for the people - Forestry Enterprise is the commercial arm to make money) as whatever is built they need to be involved with somehow as they then become responsible for it all and if they don't have the resources then it becomes a very difficult position to maintain.

The comments up the page about signage- what's missing isn't signage, it's understanding. Riders do quite a lot of antisocial things and maybe I'm a sap but I think it's largely because they don't know they're doing anything wrong. I doubt anyone enters an FC worksite out of malice, they do it because they don't know the impact it has. Likewise riding on closed/unfinished trails, or corner cutting, or riding too fast around horses, it mostly just comes down to either not knowing better, or not thinking. Sometimes it comes down to thinking you know better, which usually means you don't understand the problem you're ignoring.

So I do think the FC could do more with signage and liaison. A board explaining why to not enter this site, along with the consequences- like "1, it's dangerous for you, 2 it'll delay the work and that means your trail won't reopen on time, 3 it pisses the contractors off and if the contractors are pissed off they're less likely to protect the trail".

Similarly, with the surfaced trails we piss and moan about erosion and corner cutting but a lot of people don't know why it's bad.

And I love the "We've closed this wild trail in particular, wish we didn't have to but here's why" signs they've done at kiroughtree, that's gold standard imo.

bedmaker - Member

Approx half of Scotland is owned by 500 odd people, mostly non Scots.
Disregard for 'ownership' is percectly healthy imo.

The poor had no lawyers, but now they have mattocks 😉

The poor had no lawyers, but now they have mattocks

McLeod mibbe more appropriate....

responsibility should rest with the rider IMHO, certainly for unofficial ungraded trails

Volenti non fit injuria is all good in theory

But what about the bloke that rode along the trail on Friday, then rode along it on Sunday and went down like a sack of **** because someone had dug a gap jump round a blind corner in the intervening 48 hours?

A difficult situation for the FC (who manage the land for the people - Forestry Enterprise is the commercial arm to make money) as whatever is built they need to be involved with somehow as they then become responsible for it all and if they don't have the resources then it becomes a very difficult position to maintain.

I wonder what will happen in 2019 in Scotland when it looks like it all splits up and absorbed by scottish government. Not many media outlets seem to have picked up that the FC will only remain in England from 2019 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/bright-future-for-forestry-commission-in-england

exactly ninfan.

some cases (that have been fought and won by the landowner) have been based on "I was just riding along through your woods on a bridleway on my downhill rig and I all of a sudden ended up taking a wrong turn, hitting a gap jump and now I can't work and still need an income"

Thankfully although the law is an ass, it does exhibit common sense if you've taken reasonable care so having decent checks and procedures in place means that claims for you companies can't take the P&*S.

I think we (the mtb community) are our own worst enemy when it comes to access.
We seem to be quite tribal as a sport with a large proportion (if I'm being very grumpy - the new golf-set), who are happy batting round a commodified, sanitised and approved slice of countryside. The rest of us seem to be a relatively anarchic bunch that'd rather ride and talk crap than anything else. The few who make trails would rather just get on with it than discuss it in working committees and focus groups.

This means that we don't engage with forestry commission and land-owners on their terms - that is, as a large, organised group - in the way that horse riders and ramblers do and so we miss out.

I am personally a believer in the role of an IMBA organisation with a large unionised membership. Having invested time in that once before to great failure, I'm happy to bob along with unregulated trail-pixiing until someone gets it working.

I've never in all my years biking pixie built stiff ever seen a gap straight after a blind corner, mainly as most of us enjoy a run in and out of such stuff, and line of sight.

I don't ride for morality, I ride for fun, and the way I see it is that I can either bemoan my lack of local fun or I can do something about it, in a wood that no one ever goes, or a wet desert of a moor that is equally lacking in ambulance chasers.

YMMV, I'm cool with that.

Del - Member
you're assuming the riders are the ones suing/taking action. what if a rider has sickness/critcal illness cover, a mortgage, and a family to feed, and now can't work? they put in a claim, the insurance company look for someone to offset their expenditure.

Not accurate. Life and disability insurance will only look as to whether there has been accurate disclosure. Long term insurance will not 'recover' from a third party in the same way as some general insurance will.

But what about the bloke that rode along the trail on Friday, then rode along it on Sunday and went down like a sack of **** because someone had dug a gap jump round a blind corner in the intervening 48 hours?

Reckless riding? What if there was a baby robin around that blind corner? 😉

I ride a lot of unsanctioned pixie built off piste trails and I'm always conscious of the fact that they can change and new features appear, even if that is a natural occurrence such as a downed tree for instance.