[Closed] Did I miss it all kick off - or was TJ right....?

second one resulted in a smashed helmet and broken ribs.

Not personally but the premise of the thread is that wearing one is neither here nor there ?

Once upon a time, during a summer Polaris, in Northumberland, me & my mate were bombing down a fire road. I've got the map on a board on the bars & was looking to see where the next turn off was. Suddenly (& without warning) my mate slams his brakes on. There in front of me, was a single bar gate across the track, weathered so that it was fairly inconspicuous. I'm doing maybe 20ish mph & before I had time to think 'bunny hop' I'd got my arse over the back wheel & it was 'Brace for Impact' I hit the gate with the top of my head, ended up on my arse in the gravel with a cracked lid with either Sparrows or Baby Robins circling round my bonce going 'tweet tweet tweet'
I'd also slammed the anchors on but it stil fu**ing hurt.
Until the 'experts' prove otherwise, I'll be wearing mine.

I'm not convinced "the helmet saved me" stories mean very much.

Ok. I'll smash you in the head with a hammer, equivalent to the force which managed to crack my helmet. We can try it with a helmet, and without. That's proper scientific, that is.

Up for it?

Why use a hammer? You could sit on my helmet and break it.

That's not a come on.

You could sit on my helmet and break it.

Oh you're saying I'm fayt now, are you?

Well that's marvellous, that is, isn't it? 🙁

Until the 'experts' prove otherwise, I'll be wearing mine.

Again all the studies will be essentially be based on accidents that happened on the road where there is a greater mix of helmet vs non helmet wearers and have little relevance to off road cycling where most people wear a helmet and there are (probably) much fewer casualties. Therefore I see no point in getting all defensive and quoting anecdotes about your MTB antics. I doubt anyone is going to be proving helmet use is a good or bad thing off road anytime soon so relax.

i can completely understand how a heavily vented helmet could twist your neck etc from say a strong branch snagging.On balance though I know I will always wear one.Plus they will keep being improved too...

[i]all the studies[/i]
I really don't get all this 'studies' business. Why not just go for facts. IE ask people who were, or weren't wearing lids when they had a pile up & ask, 'are you pleased you were/weren't wearing a lid?' I'll bet you'd get. 'Yes, I'm pleased I was wearing one', or, 'I wish I'd been wearing one', & not, 'I wish I hadn't worn my helmet', except in the very odd circumstance. (bit like, 'well the car was on fire & I couldn't undo the seat belt, so i wish I hadn't had it fastened')

I had a big high speed off head first into some sharp pointy rocks a few years back. Now I'm not saying that the helmet saved my life, but it sure as hell stopped me losing half my scalp...

I always wear a helmet, it makes me feel better about riding.

However I was in belgium a couple of weeks ago. everyone rides a bike, and i mean EVERYONE. no one wears a helmet, literally no one. I didn't see piles of bodies, or queues outside hospitals with head injuries. I t definitely made me think about why there is such pressure to wear a helmet in the UK.

I just like to wear a great big DEJA VU on my head.

Did I miss it all kick off - or was TJ right....?

It all kicked off, and as usual TJ was/is right about helmets. The problem is most of those arguing against him ascribe views to him which he doesn't seem to hold...

...so, same old, same old really!

Just thinking about all the "my helmet cracked" an "I split my helmet In two" comments....

Arent lids supposed to compress and deform in the event of an impact rather than split? If they split have they have failed to absorb the force of the impact properly and therefore "Failed"?

Ta peyote and others who understand

with the chances of hitting a solid object and wear a lid off road as well- (I bet TJ does mostly too).

I wear one night riding, usually but not always riding in groups and almost always at trail centres, riding around on easy trails and quiet roads I don't

Note the huge hazards all around, rock gardens, huge dropos, fast traffic - must wear a hat

[url= http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3287/2533134153_2a0eba756d.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3287/2533134153_2a0eba756d.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/25846484@N04/2533134153/ ]05 Glen Dochart[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/25846484@N04/ ]TandemJeremy[/url], on Flickr

twohats - Member

I had a big high speed off head first into some sharp pointy rocks a few years back. Now I'm not saying that the helmet saved my life, but it sure as hell stopped me losing half my scalp...

a ensible answer.

Its also worth noting that the only times I have ever hit my head I have been wearing a helmet. Got my risk assesment right or helmets make you hit your head?

There's always going to be stories on a mountainbiking site of "I'd have died but for my lid"
We need to find a site called Fatknackerworld in which posters report "if only I hadn't been put off cycling by the false perception that it was dangerous, then I wouldn't have diabetes/heart disease/bottomthesizeofaplanet"

My mother fell of her bike when she was 8 1/2 months pregnant with me. Neither of us were wearing helmets. I think that explains a lot

I was told, after a big road crash, that I owed my life to my helmet, by various doctors and other healthcare people. Which is awesome, because it was at home when I crashed. Surprising how far the protective effects reach!

esselgruntfuttock - Member

I really don't get all this 'studies' business. Why not just go for facts. IE ask people who were, or weren't wearing lids when they had a pile up & ask, 'are you pleased you were/weren't wearing a lid?' I'll bet you'd get. 'Yes, I'm pleased I was wearing one', or, 'I wish I'd been wearing one', & not, 'I wish I hadn't worn my helmet', except in the very odd circumstance.

Tell you what, why not look up the word "fact" and also while you're at it "opinion". You've not managed to post any of the former.

TandemJeremy - Member
My mother fell of her bike when she was 8 1/2 months pregnant with me. Neither of us were wearing helmets. I think that explains a lot

Is it awful that I chuckled at that?

Sorry, TJ! 😉

5thelephant

So, yeah, maybe a helmet would have helped and I'd be saying it saved me. Maybe it would have broken my neck and I'd have been saying how much worse it would have been if I hadn't been wearing a helmet.

On the subject on neck injury (something I have had some experience of)
When the dr refers to injury being passed on to the neck I believe he is talking about rotational, in that the head is forced backwards or forwards and over extended in either direction (as opposed to being turned to the left or right along the spinal axis)
My understanding is that This hyper extention is the problem to avoid.

In my case: over extention forwards by impact on the top back of the helmet caused minor brain injury with major spinal trauma. With the helmet off: mostlikely dead.

If the choices in a serious crash are paraplegia or brain damage, there isn't much in it.
In a less serious one whiplash (with a hat) or concussion/minor brain damage/chunk of scalp missing (without hat) I'll go for whiplash thanks - you get to ride back home and than take Monday off work 😉

I'll still wear my helmet. .

I should probably add that the bar end hit me in the back of the head. But would have prolly gone right through it had I not bean wearing a lid.

I've suffered servere neck injuries twice from crashes whilst riding, were they caused, or at least worsened, by
wearing a helmet? Possibily? Possibily not? How can you ever know?
What I do know is that I've whacked my head on countless trees, hit rocks with my head and on one occasion written off a helmet by crashing and having the bike flip over on top of me and leave a whole line of chain ring teeth 'indents' in the helmet.

None of the above incidents left me with ANY head injuries. That's research in my books.

The other thing I'm interested in is for all of those who are suggesting that the wearing of a helmet could cause more injury and perhaps isn't the be all and end all that people like myself choose to believe it is, well, what do you do? Have any of you actually stopped wearing a helmet whilst riding???

I wear one night riding, usually but not always riding in groups and almost always at trail centres, riding around on easy trails and quiet roads I don't

is a sensible nuanced view.

A helmet having split still deforms and absorbs energy.

Anyway. Do the words 'just in case' not mean anything to the part-time helmetters?

And don't think pootling down the shops is necessarily safe. On the trails, most things are within your control. On the roads, most of the hazards are way beyond your control.

Got my risk assesment right

So far, you've been lucky 🙂 Any day a car could cut you up and force you into a fence or tree or something.

Elfinsafety:

Or is the perceived 'aggression' all in your head?

Elfinsafety:

Ok. I'll smash you in the head with a hammer, equivalent to the force which managed to crack my helmet. We can try it with a helmet, and without. That's proper scientific, that is.

Up for it?

I would say, on balance, the aggrssive nature of the helmet saved my life brigade is not imagined.

So molgrips - pressure suit at all times? helmet when drinking beer / driving a car/ getting out of the bath?

Can I just repeat that the rotational injury from helmets is not a neck injury - its a type of brain injury known as a diffuse axon injury. In the stats it is usually assumed if you get one of these it would have been worse without a helmet but some researchers believe it would have been less without a helmet. Its one of teh potential reasons why there is no reduction in head injuries seen as helmet wearing rates rise

Its a poorly understood area where more research is needed. Teh effect is there how prevalent is hard to know.

http://members.pcug.org.au/~psvansch/crag/h-i-mech.htm

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/wiki/Assessment_of_current_bicycle_helmets_for_the_potential_to_cause_rotational_injury

http://cyclehelmets.org/1182.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmet#Rotational_injury

Some manufacturers are now working on helmets to reduce rotation. There is a disadvantage - increase weight complexity and cost
http://www.mipshelmet.com/how-it-works

http://www.phillipshelmets.com/

Teh point of this is to show that the protection from serious injury by cycle helmets is overstated, not that you shouldn't wear one but that you should make informed choice and rather than be arguing for compulsory helmets be arguing for better testing and design of helmets

The other aspect is serious head injury is rare. the odds are low and I for one can happily live with a million to one chance.

So - I wear one when the odds are high - trail centres and the like for eht protection from minor injury, I don't wear on when the odds are low of crashing and I don't expect one to protect me from major injury

So - I wear one when the odds are high - trail centres and the like for eht protection from minor injury, I don't wear on when the odds are low of crashing and I don't expect one to protect me from major injury

I ride differently wearing a helmet too, although that's quite minor.

I'm the same on a motorbike, obviously I have to wear a helmet, but when weather permits I wear shorts and t-shirt. Compared to wearing my usual full leathers I'm at much less risk as I'm going 80mph slower. There was a lot on this phenomena in the motorbike press a few years ago and many of the journos swapped to riding in jeans. Risk compensation is a big killer on motorbikes. I doubt it's noticeable on bicycles as the speeds are so low though.

I'm pretty sure a 10" spike sticking out of the centre of the steering wheel would reduce the death rates for young drivers.

I am sure risk compensation is a factor. You feel more vulnerable without a helmet and ride more carefully

Risk compensation is the very reason I wear a helmet, im more likely to try something borderline with it on, and I generally get away with it.
My percaption of risk stops me doing something I want to do, wearing the lid is a way of overcoming the fear.
Its probably for the best that I dont wear one on the road as If I take more risks there im more liable to get squished by a car.

I'm not sure about risk compensation, for myself at least. I remember I went through a period of crashing a lot on rides and I thought I might be risk compensating because I was wearing body armour. So, I tried a ride without it and still crashed just as often but with a nasty friction burn on my arm and a shin that was steadily leaking blood into my shoe. I don't think wearing a helmet makes me more likely to crash either since I'm not even aware I'm wearing it most of the time.

Where I do think that risk compensation can come into it is with drivers. From talking to none cycling drivers and my experiences on the road I honestly think drivers are likely to take more risks with your life if they see you wearing a helmet than if you don't. So if I'm commuting I don't wear a helmet or wear gear that makes me look like a 'proper' cyclist.

In every other situation I'd wear a helmet.

Just as an aside, on the way to the pub a few years ago, a friend of mine decided to jump on another friends back. Caught by surprise, he stumbled forward which turned into a run which turned into a trip which meant the first friend ended up going head first into the corner of a kerb. It was a really sickening sound but surprisingly enough, apart from some concussion, he was alright. I often wonder if this was bike related and he had been wearing a helmet he would now be saying the helmet saved his life.

Anyway. Do the words 'just in case' not mean anything to the part-time helmetters?

And don't think pootling down the shops is necessarily safe. On the trails, most things are within your control. On the roads, most of the hazards are way beyond your control.

Molgrips - do you wear a helmet when you walk to the shops, or drive? best stay in the house with a tinfoil hat on all day for fear of anything beyond your control happening.

Helmets are ****ing horrible to wear, even the very best are still hot sweaty and uncomfortable. think I've worn one 3 times so far this year, I used to dirt jump without a helmet but with knee pads and gloves as that's what you land on when you bail so I'm not about to start wearing one riding local XC, out with the kids/family or going to the shop.

So molgrips - pressure suit at all times? helmet when drinking beer / driving a car/ getting out of the bath?

Why are you bringing that up again? It's about risk vs inconvenience. The inconvenience of a cycle helmet for me is easily outweighed by what I consider the safety benefits. End of story.

PS I don't wear a helmet when driving, but I do wear a seatbelt and buy cars with 5 star safety ratings and lots of airbags.

The biggest issue though is things beyond your control. I might ride slower without a helmet but I doubt the driver who hasn't seen me will t-bone me any slower.

Molgrips - Well be aware of your surroundings then. Active safety is always preferable to passive safety. Where you not maoning about crashing and getting injured recently?

Myself I prefer not to crash by being aware and in control. Feel vulnerable be safer

you are more likely to get a head injury when drinking, driving a car or getting out of the bath than you are cycling

Where I do think that risk compensation can come into it is with drivers. From talking to none cycling drivers and my experiences on the road I honestly think drivers are likely to take more risks with your life if they see you wearing a helmet than if you don't.

Molgrips - Well be aware of your surroundings then. Active safety is always preferable to passive safety. Where you not maoning about crashing and getting injured recently?

No, I wasn't.

And yes of course I am aware of my surroundings. Just because I wear a helmet doesn't mean I think I am invincible and stop caring about other road users.

It just means that should the worst happen, and either me or a driver gets it wrong, my most precious bit (my brain) has some protection, and hence more of a chance of surviving.

tbhTJ that photo does not really look like there's much to hit. Say you went to a bmx track, a dh course did something like that, then a helmet would be required.

molgrips earlier today

[img] [/img]

I always wear a helmet, it makes me feel better about riding.

However I was in belgium a couple of weeks ago. everyone rides a bike, and i mean EVERYONE. no one wears a helmet, literally no one. I didn't see piles of bodies, or queues outside hospitals with head injuries. I t definitely made me think about why there is such pressure to wear a helmet in the UK.

Because in the UK, drivers think we are the enemy and we're getting away with using their roads without paying "Road Tax.".

Not sure what that's meant to mean, TJ!

Well, I've read this thread*, I've studied the studies# and I shall continue to wear my helmet when on a bike. Most of the time.

*well, a few snippets
#not really

I find it strange why there are so many arguments against helmet use, often backed up by studies that try to prove the benefit is not as great as thought.

Regardless of these studies, the benefits still massively outweigh not wearing one at all. Yes you may get into an accident and the helmet does nothing. But then it has not harmed you wearing one either. On the other hand you could get into something more serious and it sasves your life.

I've seen these arguments more over ski helmets and I'm convinced it's mostly down to vanity. Interestingly ski helmets are worn far more in North America than Europe and they've just become accepted. Almost trendy.

Anyway, I don't want to become the helmet police, but taking a big smash the other week in Swinley putting me unconscious in Frimley ICU, I feel the helmet may have saved my life, or at least reduced the effect of the impact. I'm not going to insist people wear them, but I do recommend them if only to help out ambulance crews, hospital staff, and friends/family. At the very least so they aren't having to deal with someone potentially becoming a vegetable or worse having to deal with a death certificate.

Oh and helmet is only one part of what I needed. I could have done with spine protection also, but I was lucky in what I fractured is going to heal okay. I could quite easily be looking at a wheelchair from now on.

tbhTJ that photo does not really look like there's much to hit. Say you went to a bmx track, a dh course did something like that, then a helmet would be required.

and if I understand TJ's position he'll probably agree, remember he has already said he'll wear a helmet at trail centres, in fact I've seen a picture of him wearing one, he's not anti helmet wearing, I think he's anti COMPULSORY helmet wearing, and so I am

BTW I wear a helmet, most of the time