[Closed] Delamere Riders....Your input appreciated.

One of the problems with Delamere is its relatively flat, but is easily accesable from most areas,there needs to be better signage,to the trails and where to ride in a decent loop.

Tracs do an excellent job in geting the kids into the forest,and guiding.At least with the FC, Delamere riders and Tracs, all on board things should improve.

Didnt the Delemere bike club and FC work together a few years ago to build trails then the FC overnight demolished them all?

Well, all the North Shore that was built at one time went anyway.

It would be good to have a waymarked XC loop for people who have come there from afar and don't have time to explore, but for me part of the appeal of the place is a lot of the trails being natural and having to find new trails by seeing where that gap in the trees leads to... Wouldn't want the existence of a waymarked route to provide an excuse for people to complain about us riding all the rest. Agree it gets pretty gloopy in parts during the winter though!

project - yep, its relatively flat but the fun is had in the singletrack and the short steep sections. The trail will make use of the available hills. Id say it has comparable elevation in places to the likes of Cannock.

Moomin - there was a some ahem... North Shore built. It was taken out by the FC yes but it was hardly a loss to the trails. The only trail that was originally built with the agreement of the FC is the 4x which although well worn out has never been demolished and Old Pale DH which was closed due to H&S issues - and lack of use - and complaints because it exited onto a picnic area.... The problem with Delamere that you dont get at a lot of other places is that 12 yr olds can get the train there, cant ride something so alter and wreck the trails that have been built. Where people have built dodgy drops across paths and with sticks poking out of them, these will be demolished by the FC.

al_f - i hear you. I personally could keep riding the forest as my local loop for another 20 years and know trails in there that i havent seen another rider on let alone anyone else getting in the way. But there are massive areas with decent elevation that NEW trails can be cut into. This is the ideal we would hope for. The FC understand that bikers are all over the place, and if we are away in the trees then thats a good thing, away from horses/walkers etc.... shame the same walkers will prob see new trails as a footpath!

New trails = good. 🙂 I'll dig the OS map/an online version out and send you a few ideas for areas that I've noticed that could do with a bit of work/could be incorporated into a loop, you'll probably know them all already though!

Cool- Ill keep an eye out for this...

Ive just moved to Northwich and so this is on my doorstep 😀

So we are talking about new purpose built sections of trail then are we, not putting signage up around the best bits of the natural stuff. If the latter is the case, then the problems wiht them getting gloopy in the winter will just be worse won't they as the same trails see increased use?

Not the latter. Some of those trails are some of the best bits and worth keeping as they are for the few months of the year that they are dry ish.

Meeting went well, plenty of things afoot and FC fully onboard. 🙂

Good news, some new trails in previously inaccessible areas would be great and presumably they'll be able to stand up to the weather a bit more thus making winter riding somewhat less of a gloopfest. Any chance of a trail up and down pale heights?

bloomin heck I used to ride delamere and primrose wood in the 80's. There was always some interesting little tracks to find. Let's hope that even with a lack of any proper hilly bits it can be turned into fast and flowy fun in the style of thetford or similar.

Like you, I've rode Delamere for over 20 years. But the last few years (getting on for 10 I guess) I've had my head turned by trail centers. Although I have continued to use it reguraly with the dog and in later years with the children. This has mostly seen us on the fire roads. But the bad weather this winter has seen me return to Delamere for "proper" rides and I have convinced my "newer" riding friends to give it a try, something they were reluctant to do as "its to flat" and "there's not much to ride". Well I'm happy to report they have all changed there minds and we've had some really good rides this winter, so much so I believe we will still chose to ride there when the weather is better.

I guess our advantage was that I kind of remebered some good bits of trail and that gave us a good starting piont, but we have really enjoyed discovering/re-discovering the great trails. And one thing I've not heard at the end of the rides is that its too flat, you just have to work harder to get that "flow" we all love.

Not sure what help I can be, but if I can be I will. Good Luck.

A load of surfacing on the existing/developed single track would be a great start as the other facilities are already there.

2 good cafe's, bike shop, loads of parking and a train station 🙂

i agree with tthew, i know some of the nice natural singletrack does require a bit of work in certain sections, but i'd prefer that any new waymarked bits be new

although it does sound like this will require quite a bit of work and some time to arrange with the FC

Cheers for all the positive comments.

The biggest argument for all new trails is that a lot of the good singletracks are multi user (walkers mainly) esp round the outside edge of the forest. There are a number however that only seem to be used by riders and it is these we would seek to look at incorporating into a trail loop with new sections to link up, hopefully with a minimum of fire road, although there will have to be some to start with.

Old Pale... has not been completely ruled out, just need to avoid other users and families at the bottom of the hill.

Primrose Hill.... unlikely to be part of it due to being joined via the Sandstone trail.

Yes it is a lot of work. Dont envisage there being an all weather route in for next winter but you never know. The FC have a 5 year plan for recreation and the position of Delamere in the Northwest is very important being the second most visited attraction in the region (after Chester Zoo...maybe thats the answer, more monkeys?!)

We are at the stage with the club whereby we are organising ourselves officially as opposed to a loose collective of riders so as to access help with funding trail signage (a big issue with the FC) and from then on we can look at increasing the opportunities for sustainable trails. The FC have an engineer who has to approve everything we want to do. Issues such as bringing material into the forest need to be addressed as obviously rock and stone not exactly lying about the place too readily.

Cheers all.

I'm sorry to be the voice of disagreement, but I think this would be the worst thing possible for Delamere. It's just too small an area to have built trails on. It works great at Cannock as Follow the Dog keeps people away from the all the great singletrack. I just don't think Delamere is big enough to work in the same way.
I know people travel and then complain that they can't find any tracks, this amazes me, there's thousands of them. We're still doing our Monday night rides, and still finding new trails. Yes they're damp in the winter, but show me a forest that isn't. If you want manicured trail centre tracks then go to Llandegla, but Delamere should be left just as it is (in my humble opinion!!)

Dave
PS Anyone who can't find the tracks, please come out with us on a Monday night, and we'll show you loads of them, and give you a good laugh at the same time.

Shame you feel that way Dave as i had hoped you would be a useful contact regarding the route planning for a sustainable loop. I did expect that there would be this kind of reaction to the suggestion of a decent sustainable loop though. I'm sure the FC would like some input from you and would like you to expand on your reasons for the above comments. Its a genuine shame as I know that having put a lot of effort into the 4X/DH trails i will be scrabbling round for volunteers for the XC loop and hoped some of the xc locals would lend support. Oh well.

I have to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Dave. The thought of importing stone and surfacing materials into Delamere appalls me. Delamere is not CYB or Llandegla and it should not be transformed into them. It has wonderful natural singletrack which should be enjoyed for what it is, muddy in places in winter and dust in summer but superb either way. Yes there are some sections that are extremely muddy in winter and would benefit from some North Shore type management, but the FC have never shown any great tolerance of that in the past.

When all is said and done Delamere is a relatively small local forest. When I first started riding there mountainbikes were not particlularly welcome, and definitley came second to walkers and horseriders in the FC's eyes. Now there is the Go Ape and a campsite and I think the forest is in real danger of being over-developed and its character destroyed. I, for one, think that would be a great shame.

mccett - Member
Cheers for all the positive comments.
The biggest argument for all new trails is that a lot of the good singletracks are multi user (walkers mainly) esp round the outside edge of the forest. There are a number however that only seem to be used by riders and it is these we would seek to look at incorporating into a trail loop with new sections to link up, hopefully with a minimum of fire road, although there will have to be some to start with.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but that doesn't seem to fit in with what you were saying earlier re: all-new trails. If existing trail is going to be lost (by which I mean have its character changed a lot) that's a very different matter and were that the case I'd have to fall in with Paul and Dave.

Edit: p.s. Is there going to be any sort of wider consultation by the FC about this? I would have thought that your club members only represent a small fraction of the people who ride there.

PaulMc - it is unlikely that the character will be changed, however without using some material to sort out drainage in the worst areas, how would you suggest we make trails that will hold up to a good Delamere winter? If you have suggestions, again we need input. At the moment we are relying on the engineers employed by the FC.

I too enjoy the good singletracks and would be loathe to see them disappear. If the way to keep these trails is to build new ones then that is what I am pushing for, but the reality is that some trails may be incorporated. The riders that use these trails do so for a reason, they are good trails!

[b]All meetings with the FC are open to all DRC club members so please feel free to join up and come along. That is why i have put this post up on stw, we need as much info and feedback as possible from a variety of riders.[/b] At the moment the club and FC are concentrating on the 4X track so this is the time to air your views before attention turns to the XC trails.

Thanks.

EDIT - al_f see above in bold. You will have to at least register an interest with the club to then come along to meetings with the FC, for the main reason that all meetings and plans will be put up on the club site and im not duplicating work on here. FC staff are signed up to the site also and have a direct input. The FC approached the club because we were the only identifiable rider user group that they could contact because we put notices up about the club near popular riding areas and placed bins about the place to try and improve relations with the FC. We had also attempted a couple of informal meetings with the FC to discuss trailbuilding/maintenance. Only now are they listening.

I can't believe the responses of Dave and PaulMc. There is plenty of scope for putting in better drainage and building some decent trails. I've been riding Delamere for 4 years now and still find bits of new stuff but for any casual visitor you will not get a good ride.

One trail could be a perimeter loop on the side where they sell the Christmas trees, with the really boggy bit either drained or built over with a wooden section.

Another trail could start from the visitors centre and climb up old pale using the zig zags which is already a bridle way, then descend towards Primrose Hill before taking the farm track back into the forest.

Bottom line is the FC and Tony should be applauded for this initiative. Stop being selfish guys and let's open this up to more people. It's not your forest it belongs to the public and not everyone wants to ride it at 7:30 on a monday evening.

What we should ask for and be grateful for is investment in cycling facilities,in the forest,and trade for the cafe, and pubs near by.

We shouldnt make it exclusive to a certain type of rider,but open to all riders,to enjoy, and meet other riders,theres plenty of space to ride etc.

Pembo,

Not that it's a competition, but I've been riding Delamere for about 16 years now. I find new tracks every year. There are very few sections that are not rideable all year round, mud and grime is part of mountain biking, and is what enables us to have nicer bits on our bikes when stuff wears out.

I'm a tad confused by your comment around it being mine and Paul's forest, and it has to be said that whilst 7.30 on a Monday is a brilliant time to ride the forest (due to superb atmosphere, camarardery(sp?), and cakes), it's surprisingly not the only time I ride there.

My only point is that I don't feel that the forest is big enough. Natural trails should be applauded, and not replaced everywhere with man-made one's. There's plenty of trails in there, I just favour people finding them themselves. Casual visitors can have a great experience if they're prepared to look around them. It's difficult to get lost when the forest is so small, and segregated into three sections by the roads.

I'm sorry if people disagree with me, but this is my opinion, that's all.

Dave

Pembo,

I am under no delusion that it is my forest. Nor do I ride there at 7.30 on a Monday evening.

I agree some bits could do with better drainage or wooden sections, like the bit on the perimeter trail you mention, but why do we need to build 'decent' trails when the place is full of them. The perimeter trail is already just that, a trail, why does it need to be formalised to become one. Same goes for the zig zags. It's a forest, just go and explore, if you take a dead end just try something else. I am still doing that after riding there for probably 15 years. There are plenty of alternatives places to ride for those who can't or won't explore.

My point is that constructing manmade trails with whacked grit or rock will destroy the character of the place. Delamere is about roots and sand/mud depending on the season. I don't believe formal trail building will preserve that.

Secondly, the beauty of Delamere is that it is constantly evolving. The perimeter trail you mention was a brilliant trail years ago before tree felling ruined it. Now that the scrub is growing back it has developed into a nice but different trail. Why would we want to confine ourselves to permanent formalised trails. I remember when mountainbikes were not welcome anywhere other than the fireroads. Now we can ride where we please and we should want to keep it that way.

Thirdly, Delamere doesn't have the space to cope. Car parking is already difficult for all the other users of the forest at weekends, including families with small kids, unless you get there really early. Why develop a trail centre to generate even more pressure on parking at peak times, which is when most mountain bikers will visit?

Beaten to it by Dave!

I have mixed views on this living as i do, 200 yards from the northern edge of the forest!

I can see the argument for improved surfacing in places and better signage for riders who are new to the forest. However, i'm inclined to agree with Dave re. the size of the forest. Its not like larger forests where you can build / develop trails for bikers as Delamere has particular issues with the mixture of users. I'd be concerned that even with the best signage in the world, the small size of the forest will lead to walkers on the 'dedicated' mtb trails and the inevitable conflicts this brings. There have been instances even in the last 12 months of cyclists and walkers being involved in minor incidents that have made the (very) local press.

If a route / routes can be developed which overcome this potential issue then give it a go. I think it would be better if existing singletrack can be incorporated into any loop rather than cutting new trails.

Chris

p.s Dave, must come out again with you and the Monday night riders now that i'm back in the UK.

Would like to see some boardwalk, like at gisburn over the worst of the gloopy bits. As for adding stone etc not sure it really needs it.
I use a single speed round there and part of the challenge is maintaining traction when climbing.

Are these plans to raise revenue for the forest as the only reason i can see to build harder surfaces is to make it durable for the masses. Then any technical stuff there gets smoothed out on health and safety grounds.

Presumably the FC have looked at car parking and although the visitor centre car parks gets busy there is always space where the Christmas trees are sold.

As you guys point out there are hundreds of trails in Delamere and I've had good fun linking them all up. But, there is also room for formalised and well signed trails alongside the cheeky stuff we all know. It's great to see mums, dads and kids out on bikes and Delamere is an ideal place to let them ride on a bit of well signed trail.

However, I can see potential issues between walkers and bikers but again I'm comfortable putting that problem in the hands of the FC.

It seems that quite a few of the 'against' vote, (please note, I don't mean negative, as there has been nothing by considered opinion voiced from what I see) fear that the installation of manmade trails will mean that the exisiting natural singletrack will be out of bounds to cyclists. Mccett, can you confirm that this isn't the FC's intent, the proposed develelopments are intended to complement what's there already?

I was down today with one of the rangers doing some work on the 4X track and asked him about this. There is a policy of open access to all on all FC land. So... any trails that are built on FC land are open to everyone. They cant stop people walking on them. All they ccan hope is that bike signage will deter walkers from following intended bike trails. Likewise they cant stop you riding all parts of the forest.

Seemed strange to me considering some of the No Walkers signs at some FC trail centres, but i believe that is more to deter and avoid accidents/conflicts. If a walker is bloody minded enough to walk up the final descent at Coed y Brenin there is nothing they can do to stop them. The same applies to Delamere.

Any xc loop will probably start with signage to assist in following the route. Trail developments/repairs/maintenance will follow....although as there was only me, the ranger and 2 FC volunteers today this take some time.

interesting range of views (as usual)! when i first read this thread, my immediate thought was "no no, not delly - i'm not sure about that".. but i'm all for it [u]IF[/u] it was done properly that is... but not any of this family trails crap, seriously please no.....

i certainly don't believe that delamere forest park is too small for additional trails - but don't expect to fit a 30km red & black grading mtb route into it thats all! plus using the fire roads/highways would be required if just to cross sections of the park, how much use would be generated by a such a loop, the car park is too small on saturdays anyway and thats just the families and walkers

what i would would have a massive objection to is construction of a three lane motorway <popular at some trail centres> for me delly is all about the tight twisty singletrack, the mini timber structures crossing streams and ditches, the optional trails that a littered about, and the bits you go into that the average walker never dares go near

to be any good the singletrack would need to so tight that you are constantly fighting with the bars not to hit the trees, it is possible to build such tracks through the trees it just takes a little more effort - for example, certainly no wider than that new path laid near the Go Ape bit..

problem is, it'll properly never be what a typical mtb'er wants, because someone will deem it necessary to access all areas by paramedics etc. and other users will still go on it (whether it be to walk, run, shag, smoke dope or place doggy baggies on the branches) and it'll be used by all skill levels so it'll be dumbed down

but if anything is developed i'd still ride the muddy singletrack as well, i really don't believe in the construction of man made trails to keep us off the natural stuff

Interesting set of views. I don't think the Dave camp is NIMBY, but do find myself leaning towards that view. I too have spent a lot of time following dead ends and tramping through bracken, that's part of the fun for me. But I still had tremendous fun when I first started and didn't know where anything was.

I honestly think it's a remarkable warren of trails in such a tiny area. ANd it is tiny. Look at the OS, it's only a couple of miles square (you know, if it were a square). I'd be really worried about extra numbers any work would attract, the place is in danger of getting overdeveloped. I applaud your efforts to get involved with FC and steer them, but remember that however keen the local workers are, they are subject to wilful planning from up top.

I can accept progress (I can still clearly visualise my favourite 200yds of singletrack, long since disappeared under the 4x track), but don't particularly think it needs a nudge. Maybe that is NIMBY.

I'm sorry to be the voice of disagreement, but I think this would be the worst thing possible for Delamere.

Another vote in Daves camp here.

It's great to see mums, dads and kids out on bikes and Delamere is an ideal place to let them ride on a bit of well signed trail.

I can't help but feel that if new routes were built for biking it wouldn't be long before bikes were banned from the other parts. I'm not going to repeat the well made points above but I rather like it as it is - mud included 🙂

Another local here, I live in Delamere itself and have been riding in the woods since before I knew what mountain biking was. To be honest I can't really see how a purpose built trail would be a bad thing (allthough there has been on and off talk for years). Some of the current trails would get 'redeveloped' I suppose, but in the case of trails like the perimeter one down to fox howl, that wouldn't be such a bad thing as they get a lot of use. I assume it would be a sustainable trail, thus taking the visiting mtb'ers (And there is a lot of them on weekends) away from the other less popular 'locals' trails, which us locals would still get to keep. Trails that would be redeveloped would be the popular, and know really wide ones that 'weekenders' know about anyway. A loop out from the Visitor center to the Dirt Jumps and back could be built, still leaving loads of 'locals' trails? I think some kind of trail building on the Old Pale would be great aswell. I really enjoyed the old 'DH' track.

I do kind of agree with the 'bikes might get banned from the rest of the woods' part though

Sorry if that is a bit rambling. Just my two cents

Hmmm very interesting thread...

I can understand why Delamere is seen as a good place to build trails, sure its not mountainous but it has enough bumps to make it a great place to ride. It sure can be muddy and that can sure add to the fun. In terms of sizing, if you add the car park where they sell xmas trees then its big enough to handle more cars. Its not a huge forest but looping trails back on themselves soon adds to the mileage and in comparison to llandegla it aint much smaller. Its near to some civilisation and so yeah, perhaps its ideal...

...BUT...

... I do get what Dave and Chunky Paul are saying... the forest is full of fantastic trails already. A complete maze of trails to explore. It sure can be fun. So why do we need yet another man made surfaced trail? If you're a family and / or with kids follow the marked fireroads.. if yer a hardened biker who wants to ride, then take a map and explore like we used to in the old (retro head days) and if you're a hardened biker who cant be ar$ed to explore go to llandegla and play on the jumps. Stop sanitizing our sport! ;o)

I'll get me coat

^^ What he said. I suspect that if you could put all the trails we [all] ride onto a map you'd think 'why do we need more?'

I don't really get who the FC are aiming at here.

Families will stick to the firetrails and more experienced bikers can go where they like. If they want to make it easier for new visitors to find their way around why not produce a map showing some of the existing natural trails?

The mud actually keeps walkers off most of the better bike trails and as such reduces the chance of conflict. Create 'nice' sanitised bike tracks and the walkers will go on them with the inevitable consequences.

End of the day, this will surely cost the FC a load of money, are they going to get that back just from car park income?

I agree that there is already a wealth of trails but would welcome them being sculpted a bit to add interest and and year round rideability. Surely there would be a place for this alongside the existing natural stuff?

would welcome them being sculpted a bit to add interest and and year round rideabilit

How can you improve on natural trails?

You can ride it year round - I do. In the summer it's pretty dry and in the winter you get muddy (remember the 'Joy of Filth'?).
You can't drain it and surfacing it will make it like riding a pavement through a wood...... crap.

I suspect a hidden agenda down the line.

Personally I am very wary of the FC getting involved in MTB trails around Delamere. The precedent of FC involvement is not good in Delamere with the alleged h+s issues being used to rip out the once very enjoyable dh track (well I used to find little problem on my XTC - so not that downhill but fun) from the mast down. I had noticed a few 6" humps appearing in the top section then Simon (FC manager at the time) appearing to this as an excuse to rip the whole dh run out. This was then followed up with a rather weak defence in the Chester Chronicle about vandalism - a few months later the FC built a new road to the top which cut right past the dh track and then the FC threw up a few stones at the top - which is quite attractive. BUT do you really accept the FC explanation of vandalism or was their motive perhaps blindingly obvious when the new road up to the mast and stones went in - the MTBers are in the way get rid - who were the real vandals in this case. A little bit of thought and planning would have allowed them to co-exist?

The concern is therefore the FC (and other well intentioned individuals) setting up a short xc MTB route around Delamere. A few months/a year later after the hard work has gone in and the fun starts , the FC restrict access to non way marked trails, the FC build new landmarks so some sections are ripped out and further restrictions implemented..................

You may think me cycical but the FC in Delamere have done themselves no favours by their past performance.

IMO
- Delamere is a great place to explore and trackdown the cracking sections of single track off the beaten track (I have been around the forest for 20 years and still find/get shown new routes)
- you can MTB for 3-4 hours with hardly any need to repeat sections so there is plenty out there - explore
- I don't have the quite the enthusiasm of some (Dave) for the gloop but thats Delamere and its great fun
- if you want manicured runs then Llandegla is great for that with bigger challenges available a bit further on at the Marin and Penmachno
- don't give the FC the opportunity to start restricting access to parts of the forest.

So please leave proposals for a xc circuit in Delamere just that a proposal not a reality.
- by all means develop the cycle skills area - it is great to see so many kids outdoors having a great time

Finally unless you have a young family and you are tootling about take care or avoid MTBing in the middle of Sundays around the cafe area as it does get very very busy with families, dogs, horses etc.....respect all forest users.

nic - I helped build the original 4x and dual course as well as the original DH runs in what is now the skills area (remember when it had trees and greenery growing on it!) For years I have been chopping branches, clearing trees, moving the few rocks, clearing numerous trails in the forest only to find them rippped out by rangers (or walkers, i dont know which). I was once nearly decapitated by wires across trees and when i pointed it out to the FC was told 'well you shouldnt be riding there'. I would have been the first person to think sod the FC... but they came to us first with this. To me this counts for something, they could have just bulldozed everything and we would carry on as we have for years, put some work in, get it ripped out 2 days later.

We have put our own money into this now getting insurance for the club and for trailbulding. If in 2 years time I get shat on by the FC, well i'll just keep riding the trails i have done for years and ride in Wales and the Peaks when its muddy and put it down to experience (again).

Thanks all for the interest and the comments, I hope that when we need volunteers there will be at least one or two that might want to help.

Mccett, DaveDodd,PaulMc and SteveR

drop me an email at dave@singletrackworld.com would you please :o)

It'll be interesting to see how this develops as it looks like a done deal - I just hope everyone gets something out of it.

Need to look on the positive side here - I can now crash for no good reason whatsoever on the new prepared trails in addition to me weekly offs on flat fire roads and unkempt singletrack.

Nic,

I'm sure we can find some other surfaces for you to crash on as well!!
See you Monday.

Dave

Will you be better by Monday Dave? or do you just need that Sunday in front of the telly to sort yourself out? 😆

Jon,
Depends if the antibiotics have worked by then. Doc suggested something bronchial when I saw him yesterday.
Have a good day on Sunday. Hope the weathers good for you.

The fact that the Australian GP is on is a bonus though 😀

Probably the wise decision, I'll text you 1-2 words to say how it goes 😕

Just to add a bit of fuel to this....

....I have lived within 10 mins ride of the forest for 17 years and rise there two or three times/week. We go to the visitor centre every saturday morning with our kids (now 12 yrs old), enjoy our lunch and ride home. I go out for 10 mile+ rides through the forest during the week.

Like others on here, I still find new trails!!!

My problem with the suggestion of new trails is simple:

Go Ape and Tracs, whilst generating a positive economic benefit for the Forest, have in my opinion spoilt the ambience and feel of the place. Weekends are virtually impossible to enjoy in 80% of the forest now as the area is just so busy....as unpalatable as it sounds, I feel as though "my" forest is being slowly destroyed before my eyes; the trails are deteriorating through overuse, and they are filled with more and more people (wlkers, Go-Apers, horses and mtb'ers).

Having some new trails would be great but, perhaps like some others on here, I feel pretty strongly that the forest cannot sustain the development that it is already carrying and encouraging yet more people to go there will actually have a further detrimental effect.

Financial sustainability is one thing, but true environmental sustainability and the continued "usability" of the forest are surely more important....

Anybody noticed anything different ?

Went last weekend - the signposted trails seem to have been re-signposted.

Anything else?

Hang about, does this possibly mean that we can now mountain bike around Delamere without someone following us with a spaniel cannon, specifically firing dogs in front of our wheels leading to sudden slam ons and comedy careering into bushes in an effort to not hit aforementioned spaniels?
And why do they all have spaniels anyway?
Cos, you know, for those of us stupid enough to drive down from Lancs to try something easy as our first try at mountain biking, it sure was scary but in all the wrong ways.

You forget to mention that the Spaniel Cannon also fires cluster munitions that result in copious amounts of Dog Eggs.

nickingsley - Member
Anybody noticed anything different ?

Errr, no? 😳

I have had a lot of dealings with the Forestry Commission in Wales and England since the beginnings at Coed y Brenin, and much else in North Wales as well as in the Shropshire Borders and those who think these guys will just draw a line on a map and it will be built are not going to find that is the case.

First thing for those who simply see money being tipped into Forestry Land to make recreation facilities on demand, you need note is the FC do not appear these days to have much capital money to develop these facilities and usually are dependant on finding partners with funds to set this stuff out. Those with funds could be the Economic Development Agencies or County Councils or for low level developments a group of users offering free labour may be sufficient.

The FC most often is able to offer the value of it's technical expertise and land to enable other groups to use that as match funding to get grants that may be available to non government projects from Europe or Westminster or even charities. The problem is these grants which were rolling around for the begging 10 years ago when you needed to build the likes of Penmachno are not so readily available without a considerable amount of work so much so the grant raising process can consume more work than the trail creation.

I would suggest as much as you talk to the FC find out if they are going to find the money or expect you to help in which case you need making early contact with the new Cheshire CC, which being split may have only half the funds it had before and the regional tourism, health, sports and economic development agencies to ask if they know of funding that may be available you could access would be a benefit. The worse danger when working in groups relying on volunteers is that you get the designs but the fund raising takes far too long and the volunteers lose focus and drift away. The language you will have to learn to use when engaged with funding culture is a whole new world of buzzspeak and cliche that can be quite distressing once you realise you have picked it up.

You will also need to be aware as alluded to here by others that building a trail in a small and busy forest surrounded by areas of significant population, there will be many other users who currently find cyclists a nuisance will when the trails are built will not think it unreasonable to put pressure on the forestry to restrict cyclists to those trails. It depends very much on the make up of the local FC staff whether they stand up or capitulate against such pressure, I have seen examples of both. You will need to establish at an early stage that your own involvement is dependant on the remaining access to a wider informal network of trails if you are not going to get drawn into being party to it's restriction at the end.

mAx_hEadSet - a healthy reality check. Marvellous. You just made my day.

All valid points and ones that have already been discussed with the FC. FC have an open access policy, they cant restrict cycling in other parts of the forest even if they do signpost trails.

The Skills Area (which is prob of least interest to those on here - and me to be honest) is their first priority. After the waste of time that was the hundred tonnes of dirt which was delivered and wrecked by riders in the rain, signage has been agreed and work done on genrally organising the place is planned alongside the trail repairs due to all the halfwits who rode all over the 4X when it was wet. Surprisingly it was more the xc riders than the youngsters doing this from what i saw.

Can i once again point out that the idea of 'waymarked' trails in the forest is one that the FC have come up with and they approached me/us. Some days i really would rather be out in the hills riding for myself, but looking after trails close by is important to me. As i have tried to say before, you can either get involved or bitch and moan once they come along and put something crap in without any involvement from riders. I do feel that i am setting myself up for a fall as not one person (despite all the replies on here) has been in touch to give their input in an organised way with myself and the ranger... positive or negative. All we have had is 'our trails will be ruined'. Thats exactly what i am trying to avoid. I wonder how organisatins like the Cannock riders and Singletraction get so many people involved without all the negativity?

As a little update I took the Rec Ranger dealing with the project on a ride a couple weeks ago to show him some trails, putting together a 'blue' loop and a 'red' alternative (their words) to link up. He was very positive and very keen on keeping off the fire roads and opening up new sections of the forest with singletrack. Its a bloody slow process and the paperwork and red tape is a pain but hopefully it will come good.

I will try to keep people updated, if you want to know anything specific please get in touch.

Thanks.

I do feel that i am setting myself up for a fall as not one person (despite all the replies on here) has been in touch to give their input in an organised way with myself and the ranger... positive or negative.

To be honest it was this that put me off:

All meetings with the FC are open to all DRC club members so please feel free to join up and come along.

While in a lot of ways I applaud you for getting involved, why should your club members be the only people who get any input into what's done in the forest? Or, to put it another way, why should the rest of the people who ride there (the majority of the people who use the place?) be cut out of the decision-making because they're not in your club? Funnelling everything through your club smacks a bit of a few people coming in and deciding what's best for everyone (i.e. what's best for them) without having any sort of wider consultation. Sorry if I've taken the wrong message from that. Also, I share the the concerns detailed earlier in the thread about impact on the forest, possible issues with segregation, changing the character of the trails etc.

The Skills Area (which is prob of least interest to those on here - and me to be honest) is their first priority.

To me a skills area is what they've got in Llandegla, not a 4X track and a few jumps. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place though, or maybe I'm just not wanting to develop the right sort of skills...

I clocked three new bridges, one over a tree and the other over it's root cavity.

Also one linking to an earlier one further on, all in that twisty bit in the wood at the top of PITA climb after [i]rooty descent of death*[i] and the crossing of [i]little bog of horrors)[/i] on Saturday night and again on Sunday morning.

*thats what I and my mates call them anyway 😆

Oh yeah did someone especially place a bit of slippy bog mud on the crossing early Sunday morning, 'cos I swear it wasn't there on Saturday night - said mud caused large crash and much knee pain all week 😯

On another note, is MOnday on?

al-f - Fine, email me, see OP - the club is a way for the FC to deal with a recognised body to comply with their rules and regs.... Or they could waste their time dealing with 17 different groups who ride there??

'Skills area' - its the name the FC gave it years ago - lets not get hung up about it.

The FC have put up notices in the forest to all riders to point them in the direction of the club so that if they have any useful input they can get their point across. I dont care if you are a member or not, i'll listen to anyone - likewise the FC know that listening to the collective opinion of 50 people will be better than 2. I have put the points made here across to the FC and shown them this thread so that they are aware of the feelings of a number of riders. They would like to hear from you.

Thanks again for your comments.

Tony,
Good to meet you last night, that was an excellent, if fast, ride. I signed up to your club website almost immediately and have checked the forum periodically since but I have spotted nothing relating to the plans. Am I missing something?
Paul

I think a good start would be simply adding a few more bits of woodwork over some of the drainage ditches & perhaps some measures to try to prevent some of the ever widening sections of trail becoming wider/more damaged.

There's plenty of untapped quiet areas which could easily be opened up/have trails in by just putting in a few bridges over the drainage ditches.

Anyone know about "private land" signs that appeared in the last couple of months at the entance to one of the trails up near the house in the woods?

Paul,

Have to say the forum can be a bit haphazard and sometimes things get put in the Committee forum instead of the public ones. Still a slow process with the FC but when things are finalised or there is newsworthy stuff sorted it gets put on... In the meantime you will have to sift through the 'gnar' and 'rad' ramblings of some of the younger lads and me trying not to bite when some scrote tells us we are all a bunch of *****. Least that hasnt happened here yet.

Aye, good ride. Think the twelve50 lads want to make it regular thing for Wednesdays if we can. Pace to be agreed dependent on how fit i feel or if i just came off nights. 🙂

Milt - cheers, someone on the right wavelength - the very stuff i was discussing with the ranger the other week on a ride. Which house are you meaning in the woods? After the Visitors centre or out towards the hospital? Will try and find out - usually just residents trying to deter people walking past their pad.

I love Delamere.

There is so much to ride and loads of really techy bits, Yeah it is a bit flat but if you know where to look it's got some really fast (and quite long) sections.

It is about knowing where everything is though, I've been riding with Olly from Tracs for years (We've moved from previous bike shops in the area, naming no names 😉 ) And everytime i go i always find something new. Olly knows the area really well as does the guy from Delamere MTB Tours. I rode with him for about 5 hours and it was pretty gnarly.

Waymarked trails would be good, however, the beauty of Delly is that the proper stuff isn't shouted from the rooftops. It's maintained (to some degree) by the riders and isn't abused.
Having a Llandegla style trail would ruin the Forrest IMHO. Yes it would bring more people to the area and more profit's to the businesses which is great but at what cost to the trails and area surrounding?

Everytime i go to Llandegla there is rubbish and innertubes and what not hanging around, We need to keep this between proper cyclists who'll appreciate it for what it is, and if there are going to be "propper" trails, have them away from the best bits to keep them as they should be.

Sorry about the rant.
Keep it real.
Ellis.

I've chewed on this for a while and can't avoid sounding NIMBY, but still... I simply don't want the area promoting. It will only increase traffic, and it's not a big enough area to sustain many more visits. I want my quiet secluded spots to stay that way, I don't particularly want them improving.

If someone builds a bridge, I'm not pig-headed enough to ride around it, I'll use it same as the next person. But if it stayed boggy as previously, equally I'd find a different way or get dirty, same as you do everywhere else in 'real life'. If you're talking about a few low-key improvements, a step-up from what has always happened informally and without fuss, that's one thing. If you're talking waymarked 'red routes', etc., that crosses a line for me and wouldn't be something I'd welcome. Having said all that I'm not going to go out picketing, I'm not an organiser or protester, I'll just carry on doing my own thing.

Delamere is some of the closest I have locally to soulful riding. Every bit of planning and control that's gone into a trail chips away at that. I prefer my riding a bit more punk rock (or hip-hop, whatever), doing your own thing. If it's a bit messy by objective standards, it's at least organic and spontaneous and I'm still having fun. If I want the scalextric experience, an equally valid way of spending a Sunday, I'll carry on for half an hour and go to Llandegla. That's more X-Factor, entertainment none the less, but in packaged form. Different and ultimately more throwaway.

mccett - Member
I have put the points made here across to the FC and shown them this thread so that they are aware of the feelings of a number of riders. They would like to hear from you.

Thanks again for your comments.

Cheers for that, will drop you a mail - likely not until next week though as work is a bit hectic!

between Kingswood cottage & pinewood farm. There's a trail heading south that leads off the bridleway (fireroad) just near the FC gate. the entrance is right by the FC barrier so they might be right, but no fences have to be crossed & its been there a few years. signs appeared in the last couple of months pinned to 2 or 3 trees. think they might of been taken down by people, put up again etc.

Hello chaps

I personally know olly / tony and ellis and I have ridden delamere for 20 plus years - I know dave dood / marmoset / ti pin man etc and I agree whole heartedly with the anti comments... I am very wary of the FC esp how the whole trail destruction fiasco was handled. The reporting of logs /wires in the past hasnt exactly been dealt with well.

I really think the FC will screw this up and not be in the interest of riders - the forest DOES not need any more riders or armoured trails as that will spoil the place - I cannot believe that non of the existing good stuff will not be carpeted over at all... If the trail is 100 pc brand new and wont touch any of the sweet s/track I will be amazed.

The mud is part of the appeal - IF people want armoured easy trails then ride the firteroads...

The only real people who will benefit will be the bike hire place tracs in my opinion - hence their keeness as it will be good for business I am sure - its trying to be a llandegla and thats not what I want from delamere.

Am I alone in thinking this - i may well be willing to help in the future but I am very very sceptical - I say bang on SteveR and Eccentric Ellis !

paul

Hi Guys

Just a few comments/thoughts to share.....

1. If the FC decide to put a trail in(Which it seems they are doing) regardless of what people say on here. Would it not be better to have voice and tell them your concerns directly, and have an input into the design, route and type of trail it will be.
Or you can just bitch and whine at the people trying to create that interface i.e. Tony (MCCET) and be children and keyboard warriors.

2. The bottom line is, the FC will put the trail in, and if you only use this forum to vent your opinions, they aren't going to listen. Be adult and approach the correct people through the right channels.

3. The FC WILL NOT listen to random peoples voices, it needs to be through a recognised user group i.e. The Delamere Riders Club (OR ANY OTHER GROUP IF THEY CAN BE BOTHERED TO GO THROUGH THE HASSLE OF SETTING ONE UP?)
These guys have setup a club because the FC said it is POLICY that they can only talk to a recognised user group.
Again, be adults and join the DRC - Its free, then take the time to attend the meetings and voice your opinion.

4. If you feel so strongly against the new trails DONT USE THEM!!!! They will be there whether you like it or not. At the end of the day, the FC are looking at ways of making some more £££ from the forest, they look at other areas making £££ from cycling and they will do the same.

5. The cycle trail that goes is in, will more than likely be used by the type of people that will stick to said trail and won't go looking for your own "personal" routes.
Myself, when I go to a trail centre, I never go "looking" for secret trails, and I doubt people will do the same at Delamere?!
Yes they may incorporate your "personal" trails in some areas which may be a shame, but who has said they will or not? And if you never attend any of the meetings, you won't find out until it's too late.
Go there, talk to the FC and if there's a particular area that a group of you feel strongly about being used, I am sure the FC will listen and plan accordingly. Again, stay silent and they will do what they think is best!!

I am not having a rant, nor am for/against the trails, I have ridden Delamere for 15yrs and still think it's awesome fun. Would I ride a marked trail? Why not, it can lead me to new areas that I might be able to make my own way around!
Yes I enjoy the mud bath that Delamere becomes in the winter, but sometimes I want a quick blast without the muddy cleaning after.

At the end of the day, most of you on here are being very childish and not actually standing up and doing anything about your opinions, you are just whining on an internet forum and creating a lot of negativity.

Bottom line:- Moan on here, your opinion means nothing to the FC and they will do the best job they can without rider input.

Or:- Join the DRC (Its free) and go to the meetings and voice your concerns, I am sure you can be grown ups about it if you try!!

Good luck to anyone involved with the process and the interface between riders and FC (Thats MCCET and Co...) You are going through a process that nobody else can be bothered to do, regardless of the amount of moaning they do on here. And it will be a thankless task, but GOOD LUCK!!! And well done for having the balls to stand up and try!!

Enjoy your riding, it's what we are all her for at the end of the day!!

For what it's worth, I think this has been quite an interesting and grown-up discussion; a long way from childish. And wasn't there mention that the FC were keeping an eye on this thread?

Moomin - there was a some ahem... North Shore built. It was taken out by the FC yes but it was hardly a loss to the trails. The only trail that was originally built with the agreement of the FC is the 4x which although well worn out has never been demolished and Old Pale DH which was closed due to H&S issues - and lack of use - and complaints because it exited onto a picnic area....

How was the northshore "ahem"?
It was built as part of an xc loop to get you over some very boggy ground and avoid riding up the road. So it was true to the original northshore idea.
It was made from 3x3 tanelized and treated uprights and stringers with decking, and 10mmm threaded rod bolted everything together.

It was approved by the FC before construction and was only taken down when the original bike club ceased operating so there was no formal maintenance agreement.
It wasn't to everyone's taste but it was very well built and a lot of people enjoyed giving it a go.

Old Pale wasn't demolished for lack of use, also, there were no complaints about the exit as far as I know. It had plenty of use, was 2 or 3 years in planning and approval. It all came down to politics.

Good luck with what you are trying to do though, I know how hard work it is. Regarding a full blown armoured XC loop, I just can't see it. Depending on the results of soil studies, I calculated you would need around £400,000 of funding. Delamere already has the most visitors per square foot of any UK forest, so there is no impetus there for development. Cheshire also doesn't need to drive tourism like many other places where funding has been given.

A little bit of "touching up" here and there would be nice though, make it a bit more flowy and a bit less of a slog in Winter.

The work on the 4x track is great so far, pity about people riding it in the wet. I'll pay for a day with the digger to finish it off it that helps?

To be honest I don't see an issue with some way-marking, a bit of reinforcing where required and some quality wood work.

I doubt an extra few riders will have too much of an impact on the forest, it's not like there's a lack of facilities there int eh first place.

'Keeping it all to yourself' even if you've been riding there for eons is slightly selfish in reality, it's a public space for public use. There will always be little bits here and there that aren't going to be way-marked or whatever so those bits special to you may well be still special when the scheme is finished.

Cycling is a massive growth sport, so why no try to promote it in our local area, it'll help the local bike shops and cafes etc.

colp - I know how that comment about the north shore came across and as you built it that may seem like a personal insult. It was not intended as such. Yes it was very well built but as it got used it ended up starting in the middle of a bog went uphill and ended in the middle of a bog - not really getting you over the soft ground. Shame as that particular little hollow could have been spot on for a NS style run but having spoken with the rangers and engineer its too near the road now - and esp since someone pitched a Porsche into the woods off the bend there a couple months back.

Old Pale - in the recent meetings i have had with the FC the main reason for the DH course being ditched was complaints about people ending the course and flying out onto families people having a picnic - although I would have argued that the course was there before the new picnic/car park/outdoor music event venue/whatever it is. I understand there were a number of staff changes and differing viewpoints- like you say, politics.

A full blown armoured XC loop - as i have said previously is not what the FC have in mind - more what steve has said above. I would probably be of the same opinion as some others on here if that were the case.

The 4X should get some more work in the next month with the digger and there is another meeting with the FC on 10 June. Thanks for the offer - i'm sure you will see Richard in the cafe anyway and he might take you up on the offer but i'd save your cash for now! My first meeting with the FC engineer on Thursday for a bit of a ride round xc routes and a chat was fairly positive and he made some good points regarding how to make the trails able to take any increase in traffic.

Still no-one has been in touch - all comments and input still gratefully received. If you have any concerns or ideas then get in touch.

Tony,

I think what we were talking about this afternoon (when I popped into twelve50) re: George, could be an interesting way to go, would certainly generate some outside interest

i have been reading this for a while now with interest. Just wanted to make a few points.

I think that the negative comments towards the north shore that col put in a few years ago were wrong. He put a hell of a lot of his own money and time into that,just for the f/c to once again trash something. Yes it may of been boggy at the start/finish but he never got the chance to see it through to the end.

The bins that were put up in the last year or so, were put up by myself, paid for out of my own pocket and emptied by me as well. The 'hoop' bins that i put up by 'badgers' were supplied by Adam from bikeworks (formally homer cycles) in oswestry. It was not done by the club. All were wrecked/burnt etc within a few weeks by idiots. In fact the one at the skills area lasted less than a week.

In previous meetings i have had with the f/c over the years, the reason they gave for the destruction of the old pale track, was that it was built through a community woodland and not agreed with the 'community'. Obviously they can't get facts straight amongst themselves, so i feel can't be trusted at all. A point i feel was proven when the rangers pulled down the drop that was built, correctly and with the f/c's blessing, on the run known as 'badgers'. Yes i know the f/c guy blames weekend rangers, but now its gone, it wont be coming back. Conveniant....

I fully unstand all the points for and against way marked trails. I am still undecided on the issue. I think the fact that the riders club has just one guy (tony) who is interested in the trails speaks volumes. The young guys who want to get 'rad' and hit the big gaps etc are not interested in xc routes and the feeling i get from reading this thread and speaking to people is that most just want to be left alone to enjoy the singletrack in Delamere as it is.

As for the post by trackmaxi.... 🙄 i think the only person that is being a childish keyboard warrior is yourself. No one has said anything childish in this thread, people were asked by tony for their opinions and they have given them. I dont see what your problem is. And before you ask, yes i am a member (one of the founding members, with joe, chris and danny) of the DRC....

I guess, all i can say is, good luck to Tony, i know from experiance what a pain in the arse the f/c can be.

feel free to shout and abuse my post if anyone wishes... 😆

3-4 months of cracking fast dry trails in Delamere - who would want to change that? Look forward to the next 8 months of techy gloop.

Dry yea, fast Noooooo. The ground in Delamere on most of the decent singletrack away from the fireroad is spongey all year round and just saps your speed. Still bloody ace though!

nick - still suffering? 😉

[img] [/img]

By 23:00 eye had closed completely. Taking two antihistamine tablets in the next 12 hours to calm the swelling knocked me out. As you can imagine some scepticism at work on Wednesday!!

Next time I'll let Av sort out the puncture and leave the midges to it, but there again insect repellant is a good idea.

Will be in Delamere this Monday - very little rain today so dry and quick.

Understand the comment about spongy singletrack but the section running down the side of the fence from Crossley Hospital to Waterloo is as fast as it gets right now.

Did the HtN preview ride on Wednesday evening - looks good fun with a few tricky sections. Mike is doing HtN so come on Paul what are you waiting for ........

Just thought i might add what i thought. I go to delamere but like to do the trail centres aswell.
I love riding the singletrack and do try to put loops together etc, i know of a reasonable amount of the tracks but would love to know of more of them so am getting some lights together and will join in the monday evening mayhem.
In my opinion, the two things that would be of benefit would be a guide or a marked out loop (maybe markings that only the mtbers know about etc) and a bit of help on the really soggy bits, there is one bit around a fence that i know of that is particularly bad that needs some sort of help, it was soggy in the summer so god knows what it is like now as i try to avoid it.
These two items would be of help i think without going to the extremes of hard surfacing routes etc.
I would be more than willing to help with anything, i am only down the road and know delamere pretty well from growing up in a nearby village.