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nickc, Are we not as parents suposed to protect our children from those we know do wrong?
For some of these youngsters this may be the first time time that they have fledged their Mothers apron strings, i would be duly concerned as a parent.
if you're caught doping/cheating lifetime ban and exclusion
You can't do that though can you? Punishment MUST be accompanied by rehabilitation. The point cannot simply be revenge, it must be to get a person that has done wrong to see/admit/ and repent his crime, then re-enter society. Otherwise it's the death penalty/transportation for stealing a sheep...pointless.
That's how it works in society, sport Cannot be different, if we're to tackle drug taking we must give athletes a way back,otherwise it's doomed to fail
Vin Cox...who?
Point being that a lot of vocal people have strong opinions on this issue and they will make them heard. I wouldn't be surprised to see BC back down on making the appointment permanent.
nickc, Are we not as parents suposed to protect our children from those we know do wrong?
even our children could learn from such an experience?
Our kids WILL make mistakes. It's part of growing up.
I,m the other side to be honest, Sport Should be different from sosciety if you allow them in it will fail, Sport is a job at the end of the day and whilst it reflects real life for the few for others it is a Role Model, an Idol, even a Mentor.
You go to work, you take drugs and your job is driving a lorry you get sacked. You turn up pissed for work and your job is to drive the school bus 5 miles you should get sacked, its a job FFS. Whilst it's real you can't really compare a Kiddy Fiddler, Murderer, Shop lifter or car thief and bank robber as Role Models.
Davieg, You must believe that the doping problem is still prevalent then to warrant such a drastic measure by a Sports Governing Body?
Xyeti, hopefully and genuinely I do not believe doping is still prevalent, but clearly some are still willing to cheat, so there is no room for complacency. It would be far better if the story was for a former Pro to share their insight and tactical nous with the development squads, rather than their past experiences also serving as a warning.
So is it a role for DM to fulfil, or could any former Pro taken on this role? I don't know.
Nope, not for one minute. Just admitting to enough to seem plausible.As an aside, do we think Millar has been as honest as possible about his doping?
[quote="nickc"]Vin Cox...
who?Google will help.
Davieg, I believe this to be the case also, A friend of mine is involved with British Cycling and he has HIGH Hopes,
We were talking of the Playstation Generation "OurKids" and he assures me that the current crop of youth cyclists is faster than ever, It's another step up were his words, comparing himself at that age to the youngsters he said it was clearly visible, the future is bright and hopefully British Cycling will prevail and maintain it's dominant force in Cycling across all disciplines.
nickc
Complete exclusion, Team Sky's policy no?! which is pretty closely linked to BC as well...
And FWIW lifetime bans get touted on a fairly regular basis. Until the lawyers get involved. Once it's your livelihood there are all sorts of loopholes regarding restrictions on trade and yada yada yada. So the current 4 years/life is as good as its likely to get for the foreseeable future.
Why the out cry over Millar I guess he is high profile. But as I said before there are plenty of other dodgy folk working at BC. Why did no one get in a strop when Max Sciandri was setting up the training camp in Tuscany? Why are people happy for Sutton to keep working there? and there are others who have worked at BC and failed tests.
You go to work, you take drugs and your job is driving a lorry you get sacked
absolutely...then you can get a job that isn't lorry driving, or after serving your time/suspension, get a job as a lorry driver safe in the knowledge that you wan't make [i]that[/i] mistake again. You can't separate sport, it's part of society.
If there is no hope of rehabilitation: in for a penny, in for a pound, you'll NEVER see the end of doping
Why the out cry over Millar I guess he is high profile.
Suspect it is the high profile. Pulling on the GB jersey, becoming world champion representing your country, then having that taken away because he doped. A lot of disappointed people out there.
Google will help.
I know who he is, his opinion on who BC employ is about as valid as mine or any of the others on this thread, it's just he has access to the press, rather than just a forum.
nickc, Never say Never, but you can imagine who's fault it will be should one of these youngsters get tainted?
FWIW it was initially just a statement on his (personal) facebook page.
He didn't go to the press, they came to him.
nickc This,
FWIW it was initially just a statement on his (personal) facebook page.
He didn't go to the press, they came to him.
As others have suggested, you need 'poacher turned gamekeeper' types as their knowledge of the sleazier side of cycling is usually far superior to those who have led a sheltered life in comparison.
An anti doping message from someone who's never done it is exactly like the dour, boring, whiter than white copper who comes into a school and wags his finger and comes out with all the usual cliches...what is usually more effective is the former addict who can recount first hand about losing his wife, his job, his house and his mind....it's always a stronger message and if you get somebody like this on side they are usually excellent at spotting the signs of abuse in other people far earlier than the aforementioned copper.
Regards him telling all in his book, obviously if he wanted to ride professionally again he couldn't go on a rampage naming and shaming everyone from riders to DS's to soigneurs to financiers to officials etc that were complicit in the cycling doping culture....now he's retired he absolutely should do this, he has no excuses for keeping quiet now his riding career is over....Armstrong could do similar and seeing as he has no way back to a riding career I can't understand why he didn't tell all!?....this is about the only thing that still rankles me about Millar and Armstrong, they could drop the UCI right in it, blow it wide open, really shine the spotlight on the pharmacists, doctors, labs, corrupt officials etc that enable riders to dope....they could go into great detail about the how?, where?, when?, who? etc but they choose not to....maybe they still have friends in the sport they're trying to protect, maybe they don't want to be seen as a snitch but if people involved in doping knew that a pinged rider would spill the beans once caught it would be another good deterrent because at the moment all that happens is the rider in question confesses but keeps quiet about anybody else involved....that has to stop, maybe the authorities should take the approach that police take whereby they reduce a charge in exchange for information leading to more arrests? Positive riders could have their 2 year ban reduced to 12 months in exchange for information leading to other caught riders, dodgy doctors etc?....controversial perhaps but it has to be more effective than Wegelius, Yates etc simply refusing to talk about it and perpetuating the 'omerta'....
You go to work, you take drugs and your job is driving a lorry you get sacked
I doubt you would get sacked for taking drugs that improve your lorry driving awesomeness.
I know who he is, his opinion on who BC employ is about as valid as mine or any of the others on this thread, it's just he has access to the press, rather than just a forum.
BC get a lot of public money. Public (and press) opinion matters.
i'd want my son to be Mentor'd by some one who has a clean wrap sheet as opposed to a dirty one,
A [i]Clean wrap sheet[/i] doesn't necessarily mean a clean Athlete though does it, Millar's history with doping means he is suited to the role of "Mentor" someone who is open about what He's been through with regards to doping can give an honest account and advise his [i]Mentees[/i] on what to look out for, how to avoid/deal with the pressure to dope (Which won't have vanished) andcan highlight the consequences of choosing to dope.
As with recreational drug use and education, sometimes the most compelling advice for young people comes from former addicts rather than accepted authority figures like teachers, police or social workers...
Overall Millar's career hasn't been enhanced by his doping, and you have to examine the motives of those who still want to shout him down or simply see him vanish, He has some cautionary experiences to share... why don't you want to hear it?
I wonder if the Yanks will embrace Armstrong so kindly with open arms if he decides to Mentor their Nations next crop of young elite pro cyclists?
Quite different stories really, one caved to pressure, got caught and has (IMO) demonstrated genuine contrition, regret and a desire to make some measure of amends.
The other is a full bore narcissist lead a culture of doping from the front, applied pressure to others, attempted to intimidate and bully those who challenged his conduct, when caught he blamed everyone else and still hasn't convinced many that he feels any genuine remorse...
but you can imagine who's fault it will be should one of these youngsters get tainted?
It will be the fault of the person taking drugs.
There are no excuses, everyone in sport knows it's wrong to take PEDS. and TBH if you can explain and demonstrate first hand of what that's like and effect that it has on yourself your family, your fans and so on and on, I can see that that would be a valuable lesson for these kids, no?
BC get a lot of public money. Public (and press) opinion matters.
sure, but not to the point where it's dictating who they employ (within reason)
I wonder if the Yanks will embrace Armstrong so kindly with open arms if he decides to Mentor their Nations next crop of young elite pro cyclists?
Already goes training with TVG ([url= http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/tejay-van-garderen-defends-links-to-lance-armstrong-178706 ]here[/url]).
As others have suggested, you need 'poacher turned gamekeeper' types as their knowledge of the sleazier side of cycling is usually far superior to those who have led a sheltered life in comparison.
Personally speaking, I'd be very very surprised if there is any ex pro over the age of 40 who doesn't have a pretty good handle on what goes on. Whether they doped or not.
nick, of course it will be, but i'm talking from a press point of view, and how it usually unfolds, Pressure etc.
But going back to the Cautionary Experiences he has to share.......... Maybe just maybe this is me and Exclusive to me alone.
BUT, If i were told,,,,,,,, By a bloke that has made cycling his chosen career NEVER to take PED's or this will happen i'd think? are you taking the Piss...........
Stay Clean, Compete with that element of doubt that the playing field isn't level and end your career at 33 years old OR Take the shit, get caught, repent, and then instead of scrabbling about for work finish off up to retirement in BC, nice big handshake thanks very much, win win.
CLEARLY, thats how my mind works, Others don't, I just dont see the CAUTION in the tale, Sorry,
Vin is a good friend of mine and has been very vocal and feels quite strongly about former cheats for a long time, esp those who have cashed in, not bowed out graciously. As pointed out it was on his personal FB feed and the 'good luck without me' was for his friends in SW CX mainly, as he's worked a lot on that scene. Road.cc kind of did him a disfavour by not making it clear.
It irks slightly when DM is everywhere (expensive Castelli line, tv commentary, books now BC) and what stares me in the face is a reformed bank account and celebrity status. Sure there is a role for ex cheats (not so glamorous) but not this one.
xyeti, I get it, and I understand your perspective. But, in my mind you simply can't have endless punishment. It's not good for anyone, society or the criminal, and if those that have chosen the wrong path can share that experience with the next generation then if it's done the right way, then I think there's something to be gained from that.
tang hits it on the nail.
All the reformation stuff is great. But the simple fact is he has MADE money out of being an ex-doper
It irks slightly when DM is everywhere (expensive Castelli line, tv commentary, books now BC) and what stares me in the face is a reformed bank account and celebrity status. Sure there is a role for ex cheats (not so glamorous) but not this one.
ah so it IS driven by jealousy then... 😉
OK, so people approach DM and offer him a job, and he's supposed to say what? "no, sorry, I think I'd rather just sweep the floor, to "earn the respect" of random opinions on social media..."
I don't know DM, but I'm pleased that he's managed to rebuild his life, and if he can pass on something to the next generation, then good on him, I'd rather these kids had some knowledge of how it works rather than go into the world armed with "just say no" which, after all is so effective as we all know.
It irks slightly when DM is everywhere
But the simple fact is he has MADE money out of being an ex-doper
Yet other ex-dopers aren't/haven't, at least not in any positive way, suggests that Millar has a personality and intelligence, perspective etc that has got him through all of this differently to others who were caught. I don't know, never met him. People do often make their own luck from all sorts of setbacks.
On the other hand (since I'm usually pretty dismissive of sport cheats) it's clear that the greatest inspiration comes from those that show it's not necessary to dope to get to the top. Not a huge number of them in road racing but it can be done, just seems that few have both the motivation and talent to get to the top as clean riders. Such a small group may mean that there are some ex-dopers that also have aomething to offer. Even LA if he had the right attitude?
Sure there is a role for ex cheats (not so glamorous) but not this one.
I think the "not this one" is they important bit. Specifically that it is with British Cycling. I don't think most would have much of an issue if he went off and got a job as a DS with one of the pro tour teams (though funnily enough he'd be unwelcome at Sky.)
It's specifically that the job is with British Cycling and mentoring young riders that I suspect bothers most.
David Millar is where he is today for a variety of reasons, he was a strong and able pro cyclist who gave in at a moment of weakness, got caught and served his ban. He now [u]tries[/u] to educate people on not getting sucked in. How anyone can see this as a "bad thing" is beyond me.
The fact that he is articulate and well educated means he is ideally placed to act as a communicator in this type of role. It's not like he will be heading off on lonesome training camps with just a few impressionable young riders,like some kind of Castelli sponsored Fagan. DM has unique experience, he is genuinely repentant; letting that go to waste would be a shortcoming of BC if they ignored it IMO.
Further don't insult the integrity and intelligence of the young athletes under BC's care, please.
As for the Vin dude, what does he actually have to offer BC?
David Millar is where he is today for a variety of reasons, he was a strong and able pro cyclist who[i][b]'s greatest achievements were while doping[/b][/i] after he gave in [i][b]for months and months (years?) of planned, maintained, budgeted and supported[/b][/i] weakness, got caught and [i][b]had no choice but to[/b][/i] served his ban, [i][b]before restarting where he left off, only now with a 'holier-than-thou halo to go with all the other perks of being a pro cyclist[/b][/i]. He now tries to educate people on not getting sucked in. How anyone can ignore all of this is beyond me
I'd rather someone who made it as a pro without doping, took the job. Anyone of pro tour level will have been around those who doped, will have seen what goes on within the peloton, will have a deep understanding of how things have worked/have changed over the past few years, would be a better mentor than someone who couldn't resist and has been clever and articulate enough to come out of his self induced mire smelling of roses.
Overall Millar's career hasn't been enhanced by his doping,
Really? I'd say his career and earning potential have been greatly enhanced. Without doping he probably might not even have got into one of the lesser pro Tour team, let alone had enough of a profile to have a good many years wiht top paying team, warrant writing a book about his trials and tribulations, tie-ins with Castelli or whatever.
Now if he's taken a voluntary role in BC without pay, then possibly that might have been contrition...
The 'pressures' these younger riders are under should be greatly reduced with the BC setup and drug policies anyway.
Hahha, well what a froth of excitement a core few on here have made out of this...
Here's Daffy... A cartoon metaphor for you..
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I've only skimmed through this so excuse me if I'm repeating what others have said but if cycling ever wants to rid itself of its doping problem it needs to start by not letting 'ex-'dopers (my emphasis) a career in cycling once they retire. No if, no buts.
Everybody, and I mean everybody has some apologist for them. Ask Nicole just what she thinks about that!
Millars book was a farce, I only doped three times (and I didn't even [i]need[/i] it), I left the shit lying around as I couldn't live with myself and wanted caught.... yeah rightio davie boy, no problem. Go read Tylers book if want a full and frank disclosure. Made RTTD look like the fairy story it is. Omerta is as omerta does. Couldn't even go speak to CIRC.
He [i]has[/i] been rehabilitated, he resumed his career and co-owned a pro-team with another ex-doper. He even got to ride the Worlds. Now he needs to **** off out it.
I'd rather someone who made it as a pro without doping, took the job
So how would that person deal with questions about doping and the pressure put on you, after all they have no idea they didn't partake or didn't get caught.
As for the Vin dude, what does he actually have to offer BC?
Vin and his family have been involved in promoting the sport for as long as I can remember and well before that. He personally was responisble for getting CX set up properly in the South West when he moved there and puts in many, many hours unpaid to this day.
His opinion of Millar and the current situation is shared by an awful lot of people who 'work' for BC on a voluntary basis, me included.
So how would that person deal with questions about doping and the pressure put on you, after all they have no idea they didn't partake or didn't get caught.
As I said, anyone racing at pro tour level will (sadly!) have come into contact with those that dope, it'd be frighteningly naive to believe otherwise.
I'd rather someone with the courage and conviction to say 'no' mentor the next generation, than someone who's answer to the "questions about doping and the pressure" would be "I gave in"!
after all they have no idea they didn't partake
Not giving in != never being around dopers/doping culture.
coffee induced double post 👿
Not to doubt everyone but what you mean was the never caught.
Not to doubt everyone but what you mean was the never caught.
Indeed, there's always that risk (again, sadly!). I'm not sure an attitude of "oh well, it's possible they're all at it, so look kids at least this one's (probably, ahem) stopped now" is the way forward though. 😕
I really don't think the poacher-turned-gamekeeper argument carries much weight.
If anything they'll be hiring him for his long experience at the top level and undoubted knowledge and tactical awareness.
I can see the irony that doping clearly has enhanced his profile, which may have led to him getting the job over other non-previously doped rivals. Thus repeating the situation from his riding career.
surroundedbyhills, Did you actually think about what you posted OR am i reading your post wrong?
"Further don't insult the integrity and intelligence of the young athletes under BC's care, please."
Is this not what BC have done by appointing him to oversee young intelligent Athletes under their care?
If they can Insult them by insinuating this then why can't we?
Basically, we've got a problem so we employed a criminal to catch one......
xyeti: he is not [i]overseeing[/i] them he is a mentor in an advisory capacity, the tone of your objections regarding the athletes suggests that one visit from DM and they will all instantly go "Oh, let's dope it looks like such fun"
yes what's wrong with that? He is a convicted ex doper - he is ideally placed to have open and frank discussions with these young athletes on how to avoid getting sucked in.Basically, we've got a problem so we employed a criminal to catch one.....