Will/should he be selected this afternoon?
I hope so, he was great at the World Champs.
No reason to exclude him now the ban has been lifted.
Yes.
Done the crime, served his ban. Leaving aside any anti doping work/stance since the ban he should be selected on merit.
No, sets totally the wrong example IMO
if we are going to argue the point based on the example it sets i would say that his selection would show that although people make mistakes it doesn't need to be the end for anyone regardless of their situation. If you screwed up but subsequently work hard, make the right decisions and do your best then you can recover from a bad situation.
i think that is a more important message to convey than one of punishment and exclusion.
neil853 - MemberNo, sets totally the wrong example IMO
What example is that?
Yes,
and it's about time the winning mentality filtered through!!
Rules being rules he has been punished and has worked hard in rehabilitation. One of the best adverts for no drugs in sport.
timc - Member
neil853 - Member
No, sets totally the wrong example IMOWhat example is that?
That you can cheat and still get selected in the future. It undermines all the other clean athletes. I'm in favour of the life ban, the authorities should find a way not to select him for some other reason.
If they think his form is good enough and has recovered from his injury earlier this year, then yes, definetly. He's done the time and should be allowed to move on. No one even questions Ohuruogu now.
the authorities should find a way not to select him for some other reason.
Sounds as though you'd like the authorities to cheat.
I'm 50:50 on it myself, he's done his time but the Olympics is something different IMO. There's only 5 places to unlike at the World's, although if he's on form he would be useful for Cav I guess
^ exactly.
how do you feel about people that have served time then Jambalaya?
One of the best adverts for no drugs in sport.
agree with this to some extent, but given his behaviour since his ban, I think he should be allowed.
On merit he should be selected, on the other hand I'd be a bit pissed if I was number 6.
imo if you're number 6 then you're number 6.
his current performance is obviously drug free by modern testing methods (which is all we can work to) as is everyonbe else's.
done his time, ban is now over, so free to return.
According to twitter [b]he has been named in the team[/b].
Quite right as well!
If he should be there on merit then IMO he should get in.
I'm not one for life bans though, to me that's just naive.
If everyone doping was caught, the peleton would be decimated and many of your heroes would become villains overnight.
Long list for the mens and women's olympic road race squads:
Team GB long list for men’s road race (five to be selected):
Mark Cavendish
Steve Cummings
Chris Froome
Jeremy Hunt
David Millar
Ian Stannard
Ben Swift
Bradley Wiggins
Team GB long list for women’s road race (four to be selected):
Lizzie Armitstead
Nicole Cooke
Katie Colclough
Sharon Laws
Lucy Martin
Emma Pooley
precisely. the retrospective chasing of past champions and complete daily mail attitude to those caught and banned is mental imo.
I'd take.
Cavendish, Stannard, Millar, Wiggins and Swift
for the men's and for the women's
Armistead, Pooley, Colclough and Cooke if she can place nicely with Armistead or Laws if not.
Given that he effectively can't and has no intention of attempting to gain a personal gold medal at the games but will effectively be there "to do his bit for the country" through helping a team mate it gives it a slightly different spin. Do we want a time served ex drugs cheat working for us - does it taint a potential Cav gold?
I feel a bit of a hypocrite about it as I don't seem to have an issue with Millar being there but LaShawn Merritt and the other time served dirty "foreigners" in athletics being there doesn't seem right and I can't help doubting them even now.
Can anyone ever prove you lose ALL of the illegally-gained muscle mass when you stop doping? I don't think anyone can categorically say this so no he shouldn't be included. Which is a shame imo.
I say we should select him [b]IF[/b] he makes the cut, all the others have to.
FWIW.
I recently finished reading [i]Put me back on my bike[/i].
A total eye opener for me on the historic legacy of [i]La Bomba[/i] in cycling.
And in the context of that particular book, a sad story.
I've also read Millar's book, after which I feel more comfortable about the selection, if it happens.
But !....
Will he even put himself up for selection ?...
Will he even put himself up for selection ?...
He has, and the selection of the long list has already been announced, See my post a few back.
Can anyone ever prove you lose ALL of the illegally-gained muscle mass when you stop doping? I don't think anyone can categorically say this so no he shouldn't be included. Which is a shame imo.
what? this is a fairly mental avenue to head down. think you should think that one through a bit as it doesn't really stack up, particualrly as most doping in cycling has sod all to do with muscle building.
besides if it was pureley a muscle mass issue the tour contendors would look quite different...
"Will he even put himself up for selection ?... "
He's said yes he would, as it would be easier for him not to and put his feet up in front of the telebox and watch it.
At his stage of his career really don't see how he gets anything personnal out of the Olypmics... so IMHO good on him for putting himself up to help others whilst, rightly or wrongly, getting shot at.
If i was in the position to win gold like Cav is i'd not want to win it with the help of a cheat, life ban for cheaters imho. If he rides the medal is tainted
Can anyone ever prove you lose ALL of the illegally-gained muscle mass when you stop doping? I don't think anyone can categorically say this so no he shouldn't be included. Which is a shame imo.
Are you suggesting he could stop training and the muscle mass from doping would get hism through a tour ?
Even cheats needed to train so I think we can say the EPO has left his body by now
Forgive and move on
MIllar i would say is an exception in that he wanted redemption for his sins and he has done a lot to change his image and help the sport
The GB ban is illegal so he can compete and if we want cav to win we enhanc ehis chance with m,illar there.
"Can anyone ever prove you lose ALL of the illegally-gained muscle mass when you stop doping?"
Wrong drugs/ advantage in this case, more about the amount of oxgyen in your blood.
And yes it does drop back afterwards.
In pretty much any other country in the world we wouldn't be having this conversation, as we are pretty much the only place to have the life time ban.
me, i think rules are rules and should be the same for everyone.
Guilty, yes. Time served, yes. If he lived in (insert country here) would he be up for selection, yes.
Compared to some of the punishments handed out to shall we say FRENCH cyclists laterly, DM punishment was harsh!
No, on the basis he is a self-confessed cheat, so if there is any honour or fair play he should never have got on a bike to race again, or been allowed to do so by UCI etc.
Yes, on the basis that
Team GB long list for men’s road race (five to be selected):Mark Cavendish
Steve Cummings
Chris Froome
Jeremy Hunt
David Millar
Ian Stannard
Ben Swift
Bradley WigginsTeam GB long list for women’s road race (four to be selected):
Lizzie Armitstead
Nicole Cooke
Katie Colclough
Sharon Laws
Lucy Martin
Emma Pooley
it would not surprise me one bit if any or all of them were doping. It's pro cycling, innit. Excellent spectacle, but clean? Too dirty for too long to believe it. Would like to believe it could be done clean, but my head says no.
Millar has been named in the 8 person shortlist, news is on various websites.
Millar plus Mark Cavendish, Bradley Wiggins, Steve Cummings, Chris Froome, Jeremy Hunt, Ian Stannard and Ben Swift.
MIllar i would say is an exception in that he wanted redemption for his sins and he has done a lot to change his image and help the sport
Exception to what? He did not admit it until presented with overwhelming proof. He has never named names. Not sure what help you think he has done to the sport rather than the help he need to get himself out of his financial hole after his ban. He is clever enough to know the best way to achieve this and has executed it very well using his most precious commodity - his talent for riding a bike.
Rules have changed so he can ride. Goodluck to him.
My view is limited to what I've read in the popular media:
* The BC rules were stricter than the IOC rules that all other countries nominally comply with. BC have just fallen into line with everyone else. To my mind, it should be the same rules for everyone: temporary ban or life-ban, but the inconsistency was not reasonable.
* It's clear he's been wrestling with his conscience over whether to throw his hat in the ring and has genuine remorse for his cheating. He's simply concluded it would be regretful not to give himself a chance to compete; and he's right.
He's been punished, done his time, and now should be allowed to compete.
I think it's hilarious that the Olympics are still treated as though they're a major moral force for good. Have you looked at the sponsorship list and the over-the-top policing of the trademark?
Exception - in that he got caught
There really is some sanctimonoius crap spouted on here sometimes.
Are you telling me, those of you in sales, you have never knowingly adjusted the truth to get a sale? You have never adjusted the truth to get a job? I see no difference between "little white lies", "exageration" and doping.
I think he should ride. He did his time according to the rules, and the 'no second chances' line doesn't really apply in any other aspects of society so why should it in sport?
From a physiological point of view, there's no way that EPO taken in 2004 would have any effect on his fitness now. EPO stimulates production of red blood cells, and red blood cells last 90-120 days or so. I don't know enough about it, but my attitude to steroids would be something similar to what enfht said - it'll take a while for any ill-gotten muscle mass to disappear completely (although 8 years is a long time).
As for the ethics of it, that's a very different question. I suspect that drug taking is rife, and in which case Millar was just unlucky to get caught. If that's the case then he's probably served his time and should just get on with it now.
I see no difference between "little white lies", "exageration" and doping.
Tell me you're taking the p$ss? 🙄
Yes on the basis he took his punishment on the chin without whinging like Alberto, accepted the BOC decision unlike Dwayne and would simply be there for someone else's glory not his own.
Yes he was a prat and a cheat. But equally yes he has acted with grace and dignity since then
Self confessed cheat? Yep and as cheats go that's the good sort.
There's good and bad cheating? How does that work?, you either cheat or you don't and he did and will always be a cheat
and the 'no second chances' line doesn't really apply in any other aspects of society so why should it in sport?
[url= http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/53 ]A little light reading for you. [/url]
If you've committed a crime are you forever a criminal?
If you've been involved in an affair, are you forever an adulterer?
If you've told a lie, are you forever a liar?
Seems a naive, black and white view to me.
Yes on the basis he took his punishment on the chin without whinging like Alberto
Apart from appealing to CAS to get his ban reduced of course.
Well as breaking the rules is cheating. WADA set the rules and we follow.
Following all their research (I think they do a bit) they have decided that lifetime bans are counter productive. 4 Years is best.
We should stick to the rules. He is eligible and no in the team.
Tell me you're taking the p$ss?
No, we accept lying happens in so many aspects of life, massaging sales forecasts, forgetting details for clients, tweaking a CV, speeding, parking on double yellow lines, killing a cyclist whilst driving, and if someone gets caught they get a slap on the wrist.
Why should we hold sportsmen to any higher level than anyone else. Millar got caught, admitted his guilt, got his slap on the wrist now move on. If he is good enough to race then he should be allowed to.
Miller said that he would only do it if his team mates accepted him. I hope he stands by that and that they make the decision
Mill[s]e[/s]ar said that he would only do it if his team mates accepted him. I hope he stands by that and that they make the decision
Do you think they won't? 😯 You're talking about the same team-mates who were perfectly happy to work with/for him (remember he was captain on the road) in the Worlds last year.
If i was in the position to win gold like Cav is i'd not want to win it with the help of a cheat, life ban for cheaters imho. If he rides the medal is tainted
In the same way Cav's rainbow jersey is tainted?
If you've committed a crime are you forever a criminal?
If you've been involved in an affair, are you forever an adulterer?
If you've told a lie, are you forever a liar?
Of course you are forever all of these obviously. that's why if convicted you gain something called a criminal record. Do you think a person who's partner is adulterous ever forgets it? Do you think anyone lied to ever fully trusts the liar again? Seems black and white to me.
In the same way Cav's rainbow jersey is tainted
Exactly
If you've committed a crime are you forever a criminal?
Yes but you are allowed to return to society
If you've been involved in an affair, are you forever an adulterer?
Yes but you can move on from it
If you've told a lie, are you forever a liar?
Just human really
If you cheated once are you still cheating?
No?
Drug cheats should be banned for life from competition. You can "move on" by doing a normal job and riding for fun like most of us do. If you commit a firearms offence you can never again own a gun.
If you cheated once (especially in professional sport for financial gain) you'll always be branded a cheater and rightly so
If you cheated once (especially in professional sport for financial gain) you'll always be branded a cheater and rightly so
By you and your ilk, but not everyone.
It is only the Olympics. For a runner the biggest event going, for a cyclist, not really. How many here can name the "current" Olympic champ? If it wasn't in some peoples back yard there wouldn't be half the fuss. Rules are rules. If the rules say it is naughty to dope and they are stuck by then other rules also apply. Since when have rules had anything to do with what is right or common sense.
Can anyone tell me what tyres I need please? 😆
Why do we call them cheats any way but all those dozy footballers who get a red card are not labled the same way? It's the same thing.
You guys do know that Valverde is riding for Spain, yes?
if you had read cav or wiggins books youd know that they both have fair respect for millar in light of what he did
so its highly unlikely that cav feels his rainbow stripes are tainted.
miketually - Member
I think it's hilarious that the Olympics are still treated as though they're a major moral force for good. Have you looked at the sponsorship list and the over-the-top policing of the trademark?
This.
By you and your ilk, but not everyone.
Those who condone cheating and turn a blind eye because there might be a win in it are worse than the cheaters, your "ilk" by the sound of it
the authorities should find a way not to select him for some other reason.
Sounds as though you'd like the authorities to cheat.
Well there are Triatheletes, Martial Artists and Shooters who have all been overlooked in favour of weaker competitors so it would have been easy not to select him
I suspect he won't get picked anyway - highly likely to be a full team Sky line-up in my opinion and the way Froome is riding I would take him in preference....purely on form and nothing to do with the drugs issue
Don't forget, Millar was never "caught" in the sense of being found positive - he admitted what he had done, after feeling remorse. That surely deserves a small amount of "credit".....quite apart from the fact that he subsequently served his time and taken the stance he has in helping younger riders to come through the ranks....good luck to him; I think he's a very classy rider.
"Don't forget, Millar was never "caught""
Are you sure ?
I thought his flat was raided and needles etc were found.
But anyway... if you're not cheating, your not trying.
Millar should ride. I am anti doping but perhaps one Olympic cycle is fair. It should be the same for all nations though.
What amused me about the 8 in the long list is how many were born in Britain. Belgian, Maltese, Kenyan, Canadian (? JH)and I think IoM is not British as such but have British passports.
""Don't forget, Millar was never "caught
I thought his flat was raided and needles etc were found. "
Caught as in not failing a test. A needle doesn't make up a doper, as in a gun doesn't make you a murderer. But yes but no......yes he was doping.. In a era when he fair from the only one in a culture that was very pro doping.
Also kept the needle by his bed side to remind himself of what he had done...alledgelly.
Have a look at the interview with Hoy and DB on the BBC, I don't think they have any issues.
"What amused me about the 8 in the long list is how many were born in Britain. Belgian, Maltese, Kenyan, Canadian (? JH)and I think IoM is not British as such but have British passports."
Yeap and a good thing in book. Acceptence of where people want to be rather than which bit of soil they were born on. Better then the serb/croata way.
Millar said that he would only do it if his team mates accepted him. I hope he stands by that and that they make the decision
Interestingly I have just read a couple of bits in the papers about this that seems to say even Cris Hoy who has always stated that he feels a life ban is right has softened his stance with the prospect of Miller being selected. I think if Hoy came out with a very strong " miller should not be selected" stance Miller would probably drop out
Obviously I don't know all the behind the scenes stuff but I found this interesting
could think that it's worth the risk of taking drugs because they could test positive, come back and compete again. There should be meaningful deterrents that put people off taking drugs. It's a shame that the bylaw has gone, but it's gone. I'll welcome whoever is standing next to me in Great Britain kit."
Its also being spun both ways
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jun/13/london-2012-olympics-david-millar?newsfeed=true ]London 2012 Olympics: Sir Chris Hoy uneasy over David Millar selection[/url]
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/18424686 ]p London 2012: Sir Chris Hoy backs David Millar [/url]
rOcKeTdOg - Member
Those who condone cheating and turn a blind eye because there might be a win in it are worse than the cheaters, your "ilk" by the sound of it
Where did I say that? Idiot.
The whole 'dope, serve 4 years then come back' suggests that being able to support yourself during the ban, whilst maintaining the level you need to be able to compete and then return at a level that is competitive whilst facing much more scrutiny (and, I imagine, outright hostility from some) is no mean feat.
I would suggest that it is incredibly difficult, and (as I have said before, more than once) having someone who has done just that standing up and saying 'I did this, then to get back I had to do this, on the way I lost this' is better than just writing them off.
The one strike approach that some suggest would be stupid. What if it's a young rider, first pro level team, pressurised into it by whatever means and by whoever?
People make mistakes.
cynic-al - MemberrOcKeTdOg - Member
Those who condone cheating and turn a blind eye because there might be a win in it are worse than the cheaters, your "ilk" by the sound of itWhere did I say that? Idiot.
😀 you've always been able to dish it out but not take it, running out of ideas and name calling is a new low even for you Al, how childish
Not at all, you've sought to misrepresent me or put words in my mouth in the past, so no change there.
Again: where did I even imply I condone cheating?
too late to back pedal Al
as for
you've sought to misrepresent me or put words in my mouth in the past
you having a laff? you do all the damage to your forum image quite well on your own without any supposed 'help' from me
like drug cheaters, a known troll is always a troll, now go and play with the other children, there's a good lad
You've called me pro-paedophile before, today you are telling me I condone cheating. Nothing to back it up bar calling me a troll (name calling wasn't cool 2 posts ago? 🙄 )
I don't really care what you think about me, I'd just prefer you not to defame me online.
'Right you two.
You can stop this silliness right now or you can both go to bed and neither of you are going to the zoo at the weekend.
Do I make myself clear??'
He started it 😉
Those who condone cheating and turn a blind eye because there might be a win in it are worse than the cheaters, your "ilk" by the sound of it
I think al may actually be , rightly IMHO, pro redemption/rehabilitation rather than pro cheating.
Correct. No idea what I've said that might make that unclear.
Interestingly I have just read a couple of bits in the papers about this that seems to say even Cris Hoy who has always stated that he feels a life ban is right has softened his stance with the prospect of Miller being selected.
[b]Sir[/b] Chris Hoy hasn't changed his stance at all - it's just that you misunderstood what it was (hence my shock at your suggestion that any of Millar's team-mates might be unhappy racing with him).
I don't condone cheating but I do support Millar to be in the team.
He has served his sentence, his sport accepts him back and so do his team mates. The top authority on drugs in sport says he is allowed back. We ask for a level playing field so lets have one all countries playing the same rules.
What more is needed?
Considering as a young man he was pressured into doing what was wide spread in the sport and has now come through that stronger and clean is credit to him.
The anti drug message comes through much stronger from the fallen and reformed than those who are still suspected or are naturally ahead of the field.