[Closed] Daft question about Singletrack.

Are you in Scotland?

If so - ride on.

Rules is for fools.

I work on the basis that until I get told otherwise, it's fine.

unlucky

What's the worst that can happen if you are riding it "illegally"?

The law on this is full of historical weirdness - my view is that if someone with authority (ie the landowner) tells you that you shouldn't be there, then you shouldn't be there. Everywhere else is fair game if ridden in a considerate manner.

Just remember

"it's only illegal if you get caught, until then it's just good fun"

You'll get pecked to death by a baby robin

No idea Simon but I know that upsetting a walker because I am somewhere I shouldn't be makes me feel shit.

So the article in the magazine here about pouring over a map looking for secret trails that no one has found is basically pointless unless you are willing to break the law?

Guess I am sticking to the SDW then, bugger my law abiding nature!

If its not a footpath or a bridle way then the walker would have no more right to be there than you...

Hmmmmm interesting thought there jam bo. One which I can make work until the day I meet the landowner.

I work on the basis that they have to catch you first! and you're on a bike.

If the land owner tells you to leave and you aren't on a bridle way then politely obey. Otherwise ride where you like. Do this and you are strictly respecting the law.

A right of way grants rights. It does not deny you rights.

Most walkers neither know not care when you're riding somewhere that you shouldn't be (and bear in mind that if you have permission from the landowner then you can ride on footpaths). A small but vocal minority are militantly anti-bike and are best greeted with effusive friendliness! Sessioning some very cheeky drops and jumps a few weekends back we had walkers stopping to enjoy the free entertainment as we attempted to get some good air time and the folllowing weekend we had a dog walker having a good laugh at the sight of us all awry on a techier than expected trail with one rider tangled in his bike 40' down the escarpment below. All the best riding I know of around the SDW is cheeky and I shall continue to both enjoy it and enjoy having plenty of amicable chats with walkers (and the odd horsist - though I'm one of them too) whilst we all make the most of the countryside!

Ride wherever you like as long as you are sensitive to ground conditions and other people, IMO.

I never use to worry about whether it was legal or not, and then I moved to Scotland 🙂

I am feeling all revved up now, just need to find some of this cheeky riding.

Most singletrack in the woods is fair game as its it on footpaths, some of it has been built, some of it has been created simply by bikes following the same routes, some of the stuff in the Surrey Hills for example has been built on paths that were not rights of way (eg the little dotted black lines) in areas with freedom of access. Riding on official right of way footpaths isn't legal but we all do a little of it from time to time. As above it's all about curtosey and not taking the piss (ie screaming down busy footpaths terrorising everyone, eg older people who probably cannot hear you coming or dog owners afraid you are going to smash into their beloved companion)

You might like to search on here for Whiteways Lodge for example also you have the trails at QECP

http://www.cheekytrails.co.uk/ethics.htm

is all you need to know

Correct me if I'm wrong but (in England) you are allowed to ride on bridlways, RUPPs, BOATs, byways etc, etc and not on footpaths, but the footpath rule has never actually been tested in a court? Does anyone know of a case and the outcome?
Generally, I'm with Grum. If you are sensible, sensitive to the grund and conditions and polite to walkers etc then no-one grumbles.
People riding on pavements next to perfectly good roads pi$$es me off though, gets the rest of us a bad name. Double standards? Maybe.

Just don't give your name and address if you get caught 😉 Or do all your cheeky riding at night. 😀

Aye, nou inglisch

then casually ride on?

Ride where you like footpaths included, just ride sensibly if you're likely to come across others and be pleasant.

Pretty sure there were some articles in the mag where a RoW was interviewed a while back about this very subject. Prob worth having a search on the main site

Ride wherever you like as long as you are sensitive to ground conditions and other people, IMO.

Agreed. The thing is, I'd say most MTBers don't give a toss about the ground conditions. They just fit spikier mud tyres and plough on through it all year round. See places like Swinley and the Peaslake area for proof. I've often wondered if there should be an MTB closed season enforced..... 🙂

http://singletrackworld.com/category/news/access-news/

If you scroll through that lot you'll find a load of info including RoW officer view

I quite happily poach footpaths btw.

Access isn't decided on anything sensible like how sensitive the ground is so I make my own decisions.

Piedi, my recollection of that article was that it was a policeman who was interviewed. If I remember right (which is highly unlikely) the gist of it was that in England & Wales you can ride on bridleways no problem. If you choose to ride on a footpath then it is a civil offence and it is the landowner who has to a) stop you, b) ask you to wait until the police arrive and c) prove that there has been some damage to their land caused by you.

The abouve does of course go out of the window if a specific bylaw exists prohibiting cycling on footpaths. But I've found that finding any information on where these bylaws exist is nearly impossible!

Basically I assume a footpath is fair game unless I see a sign stating "No Cycling".

I was riding along on an empty footpath next to a campsite in The Lakes and the land owner farmer had a right go at me.

Correct me if I'm wrong but (in England) you are allowed to ride on bridlways, RUPPs, BOATs, byways etc, etc and not on footpaths, but the footpath rule has never actually been tested in a court? Does anyone know of a case and the outcome?

There was a very entertaining multi-page thread on here ages ago about the Bogtrotters riding a cheeky trail en masse and being caught. simonfbarnes (used to post on here all the time, much less frequent these days) had lead the ride but in spite of there being hundreds of pictures taken by him posted online, the thread on the subject and the whole group being asked/told to leave by a ranger (or reported to a ranger by a member of the public, I can't remember the fine details) and all sorts of threats, absolutely nothing was ever done.

I ride FP in the Peaks all the time but then I pick my riding times and the conditions of the trails carefully - there are plenty of BW's I won't go on in this weather as they're just a mudbath and to ride on them (even though I have every right to do so) would just chew them up further. On the other hand, a well surfaced FP is fair game. 🙂

I am a bit of a stickler for rules to the point ...

I think you need to do something about that. Fundamentally you have issues about authority that you need to address before you go riding. The good news is that you're in the right place, 90% of STW users are experienced philosophers or therapists and will be able to help you with this.

As far as footpaths go:

1. The law is an ass as far as access goes. Current rules are based on weird historical anachronisms and quirks rather than any level of suitability for use.

2. 99.9% of walkers either don't know or don't care about the legalities of where you ride. If you're friendly and considerate, even the 0.1% aren't that bothered. Walkers are like cattle. If you give them a wide berth and don't pull on their udders or run over their offspring or otherwise frighten them, they don't care.

3. Someone needs to draw up a 'Footpath Code' for walker encounters - slow down, smile, stop if necessary, say hello, feed them chocolate. Try it, it works. Remember, their idea of what's fast and close is not the same as yours, which is why they hurl themselves off the edge of a 10m-wide track at the vaguest sign of a bike.

4. It's ok to ride footpaths at weekends. If we're not seen to be riding them, walkers will never get used to the idea (see 3 above).

5. The current rights of way legislation is arse, but has one crucial plus point. It prevents magazine and guidebook writers from including your favourite local trails in route guides leading to instant trashing by lots of fat middle-aged blokes from somewhere in the Midlands.

6. Folk who work for British Cycling should, of course, set a good example and stay legal at all times 😉

But first, you need to sort out this thing about being 'a stickler for rules'... 😐

They just fit spikier mud tyres and plough on through it all year round

whereas walkers and surprisingly often, horse-riders, divert around the mud, making the mess wider and wider and wider.

my view is that if someone with authority (ie the landowner) tells you that you shouldn't be there, then you shouldn't be there.

Unless there's a right of way on their land (e.g. Bridleway) in which case they can sod off. Or anywhere in Scotland, they can sod off too.

I love a bit of poaching.

the landowner (or agent) can ask you to leave etc, but how do you know they are the landowner and not somebody else pretending to be?
Presumably the landowner doesn't have to pop off and fetch the deeds/some ID if you get 'caught'?

Ok,ok, I am a convert. I will no longer worry about such foolish things such as rules and will ride where I like without a worry but with consideration for others. You may think this daft, but it has lifted a weight.

Being brutal, most land in the UK is owned, and the majority is closed to the public.

my attitude is shaped by the following the Enclosure acts, the rich kicked the poor off the land for their own benefit. Much of the landscape still reflects this, CAP, i pay large amounts of money to rich landowners.

Counter to this is common sense, i am not going to go through the middle of a field of crops, i am not going to go through someones garden.

Being brutal, most land in the UK is owned, and the majority is closed to the public.

my attitude is shaped by the following the Enclosure acts, the rich kicked the poor off the land for their own benefit. Much of the landscape still reflects this, CAP, i pay large amounts of money to rich landowners.

Counter to this is common sense, i am not going to go through the middle of a field of crops, i am not going to go through someones garden.

This thread displays a lot of the arrogance that gives mtb'ers a bad name. I'm a Gamekeeper. I'm also a mtb'er. I'm also a horse-rider.
What you may not understand, is that by selfishly riding where ever you please, when ever you please, you are spoiling things for others.

Last year, I had trouble with mtb'ers riding at night with stpuidly powerful lights through my main pheasant roosting woods. This meant the pheasants simply upped and left. You may not care about this, in fact you may sneer and say "good". Imagine if I came into your office and poured your diet coke over your laptop when you'd just written a massive report- it's the same thing.
So, I errected gates and fences around the whole wood and keep them shut all year round where as previously, I would have been happy for people to ride there between Feb and June.
I also was sat in a high-seat one night with a high powered rifle, waiting for a fox to come out of her earth. A mtb'er who was riding illegally, rode straight through the scope picture!!! Luckily, I always wait with the bolt open so he was in no danger but the results of an accident don't bare thinking about.
We live in a tiny island with a lot of other people, there's plenty of legitimate places to ride without the risk of spoiling it for others.
Why not try actually asking the land-owner???
Oh sorry, that wouldn't be 'hardcore' enough to brag about inbetween doodling on your notepad in tomorrows meeting would it 😀

Oh ffs! I thought I hadn't sorted in my head, now I am at risk of being taken out by a sniper!

On a more serious note I am sure no one would sneer at your hard work and livelihood being dealt a blow like that. I imagine it was not the intension of the bikers to do that and maybe clear signage and opening up between Feb and June might be the way forward to please all?

All the PROW's are clearly marked. It used to be common sense that anything not marked is not a PROW. Now, people seem to want the countryside laden with signs! Welcome to the recreation nation- everywhere's a theme park.
I also find that at night, people think they can go wherever they like because there's less chance of getting caught.
It's just another indicator of how selfish everyone has become.
Like I say, if people took the time to engage with landowners/gamekeepers/rangers etc and helped them out by calling-in suspicious vehicles, fly tippers, hare coursers or even foxes that they see out on their rides or even showed an interest in the estate by offering their services as 'beaters' during the winter etc etc then a whole raft of opportunity could be opened up.

In all fairness, the local horse riders are even more arrogant than the local mtb'ers 😀
I did feel a bit hypercritical one day when I cantered up on my horse to a horse rider who was tresspassing on a 'conservation strip' and reminded them that there is no public right of way there 😀 Although I did make sure I was riding on the edge of the corn field lol!

[img] http://www.moorhen.me.uk/iodsubject/birds_-_robin_10.htm [/img]

You'll get pecked to death by a baby robin

To go back to the OP, if you want to establish the legal status of a track in England or Wales, all ROW are on the maps of every county council. These may be online or at held in an office where you need to request a look. Known as the definitive map and statement.

Not quite so straightforward are routes or areas with permissive access, which is usually at the discretion of owner or manager, but may be "enforced" by the likes of natural England if access is being subsidised under a stewardship scheme, for example. There are other routes where use may be tolerated, though rarely encouraged. Then you have Forestry Commission land which is all ok, though may be subject to some guidance etc.

In short, [i]if[/i] you want to know, find the definitive map and statement, if that doesn't help, ask the landowner or manager (if you know), or someone on a local access forum for help finding out. It's not always possible to be sure, though I'd far rather all users went about their ways considerately for all concerned, including the state of the route, rather than simply seeing it as an issue of legality (which as others have suggested is generally a totally ibollocksed system of legislation that is unfit for current and future purposes).

edit

All the PROW are clearly marked

bajsyckel - Member
All the PROW are clearly marked

This is neither true of ordnance survey maps, nor on the ground

This!

or even showed an interest in the estate by offering their services as 'beaters' during the winter etc etc then a whole raft of opportunity could be opened up.

Can I ask, how is beating a service? I could understand if you were to say clearing or something similar. I've done some beating in my time and it only serviced rich, fat Americans who want to shoot pheasants.

This is the joy of night riding , no walkers or horses to upset. MOD land however.......

I have to admit that I'm a bit of a stickler too. I only ride bridleways and other legal areas on my bike, despite this meaning I miss out on some good stuff in my local area. It has meant that I've search OS maps, google earth and i study local strava users habits very closely. In most ways I'm happy with my anal retentiveness in terms of law abiding as I can now, after several months, pick out some great routes in my local area.
However, reading threads like this, I'm tempted to ride of the incredible looking trails I know are there from walking my dog. Hmmmm.

Can I ask, how is beating a service? I could understand if you were to say clearing or something similar. I've done some beating in my time and it only serviced rich, fat Americans who want to shoot pheasants.

Because younger, fit, able beaters are at a premium and most estates are glad of a couple of fresh new faces showing an interest each year. My point is, by both respecting and engaging with the estates existing activities, you get an 'in' that could open up countless oportunities.

*resists childish joke about beating someone*

I had a ride out of Newbury yesterday with the Trail Break people on one of thier Trail Ride series. No idea who owned the land but there was some fun singletrack sections. I am gong to do as many of these as I can next year if they are all as good as the Newbury route. No snipers, marked route, and friendly dog walkers.

I agree with a lot of what crosshair is saying, if I was single, childless, and had free time in abundance I would quite happily whack a few trees to please a bunch of brain dead Americans in return for some lovely riding.

I have been told from a county ranger that footpath are just a proven right of way for pedestrians, it doesn't say that other users can't use the route. As long as there aren't any "no cycling" signs hen you shouldbe ok. The landowner or his ban can still ask you to leave though.

Crosshair brings a mature and educated point of view to this debate.

I don't see why we can't respect the request to leave footpaths alone for walkers to enjoy in peace and quiet. We don't HAVE to ride everywhere just because we want to. There's more than enough riding on bridleways, trail centres, etc

We don't like drivers to have no respect for our desire to ride safely, so why do we think we can ride where and when we like with no respect for walkers desire to walk peacefully and safely?

"there's plenty of legitimate places to ride"

No there isn't. All we ask for is legitimacy to ride where others walk. If you put up warnings about shooting during shooting season then I'm happy to avoid your place of work along with all the ramblers.

"Why not try actually asking the land-owner???"

Not accessible mostly. Often very rude too. Every enquiry I have made, no matter how civil, has been met with negativity supported by and argument about their Rights (to deny access).

History supports the view that Landowners in England, in the main, do not want to share. Recreational users are merely a tolerated nuisance.

I also find that at night, people think they can go wherever they like because there's less chance of getting caught.

While there may be fewer people around to see it, I find that having 2000 lumens mounted on me is a bit of a giveaway that I'm there!