[Closed] cyclocross brakes - are they meant to be rubbish?

I've got Tektro Short canti's with Sora Levers and set up properly they're spot on. Since changing from a shimano canti wire set up to a more old school straddle wire and yoke the improvement in performance has been ten fold...

I brought these to make them work properly.....

[url] http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170398625173&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_500wt_1141 [/url]

[url] http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320390992128&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_1359wt_1124 [/url]

Simples.... 😉

Mine were worryingly rubbish yesterday but I think the rims might have been contaminated - need to scrub them in degreaser and change the pads because normally they're spot on.
Ceramic rims and Avid Shorty 6 cantis with ceramic-specific pads.

Plus Swiss-stop brake pads are good to use as well...... IMO

I run Frogleggs on mine...

Set up spot on, they seem spot on..

Not quite the same as a decent set of Discs, but thats half the fun isn't it??

[IMG] [/IMG]

It doesn't matter if they're crap. It's not like you've got any grip to actually brake with is it? 🙂

if you've got standard cantis, drop the straddle cable as low as it'll go to see if that improves things (or as higher if using frogleg types)

"drop the straddle cable as low"

Will probably cause horrible mud clogging problems, as I found out today. 🙁

Agreed but it was only too see if it improved things rather than a perm solution. I'd bet that it's the same as most mtb to cx converts eg spoilt by discs and grippy tyres.

yeah i could try all those but ill probably batter on, im sure the crap and grit on the rims didnt help much

Not quite the same as a decent set of Discs, but thats half the fun isn't it??

exactly 😀

plus hopefully ill feel like a god when im on the mtb

Mine were terrible but my lbs has got them working enough for me to ride it on the road now. Before I was sailing through redlights trying to stop. So I think its just they take ages to set up correctly!

They are pants, no two ways about it. To think, we used to run the same brakes on mountain bikes. I've got mini Vs on mine and I wasn't happy with them so i tried frogleg style brakes and found that while I got plenty of clearance, they felt wooden and lacking power. i then tried a medium profile brake like the old Avid shorties. More powerful at the expense of some rim clearance. So, I trued the wheels up and went back to the mini Vs. The most poerful option of the three but naff all clearance. I'm now keeping my eyes peeled for an alloy frame/fork that will take disc, guards and a rack.

They should be very good. I admit they can take some setting up. I've never worked out why some peoples set ups are so pants. Me and a friend each built identical Giant TCXs but his wouldn't stop.
I spend ages working on how and where the pads make contact, to the point were careless braking will cause an endo or skid.
A workstand helps preferably with the tyres off so you can see what's doing what clearly.

horses for courses or steeds for style?

surely cyclocross is racing and brake considerations are low on the priority list?

have a cx "style" bike because means can ride on and off road and not in the sit up style of a hybrid but as with all such [i]it is a compromise[/i] and all rim brakes are naff - some more than others - canti's are better than the normal roadie stuff
i'll be going for discs at some point but might stop calling it a a cx bike

My cheap Tektro Oryx cantis stop me fine. Took a bit of setting up but more than happy with them now. Have had mini vees (awful) and road BB7s (very good but heavy and ugly) on my CX bike in the past but will be sticking with cantis from now on. Would quite like a seat of these... http://lyxus.net/cxct but they're not exactly cheap!

I run a front mini- V and with some 'special modificatons' works very well, however, the Avid shorty 6 on the back has, in David Cameron-speak," a real and sincere commitment to stop" which means its full of crap!.

I've just got 2 and a half hours out of a set of pads, which meant today's race was a gentle pootle.

Got pretty much the same setup as teetosugars, but with the newer cartridge pads, no probs, you need to keep on top of them, keep them adjusted etc. but its easy. Work fine, if youvegot pannoiers etc you might want discs but for rider + bike I think they're fine.
Shimano mini v were shi7e in my opinion

why would a non racing cross bike not be a cross bike then??

annnnnnnyway, they are guff brakes but they're guff in a good way*

*plus i havent spent any time setting them up, so its prob more to do with that 😉

Anyone had brake judder issues with carbon forks and cantis? I have a CX bike with a Planet X carbon fork up front. I was using the cheap but cheerful Tektro Oryx cantis but found that the front end would bounce around all over the place whenever I put the front brake on (apparently quite a common problem). I am using a V-brake up front at the mo (mini v's won't clear the mudguards when I use the bike for commuting duties) but it's really ugly and would like to use cantis again. Anyone got any ideas?

Nothing to do with the fork being carbon as it can happen on
alu or steel ones too.

Best solution is to change the length of the exposed brake cable. Often a fork mounted hanger works.

Or just don't brake 😉

Could I be so bold to suggest BB7 road discs. They work fine in the mud. Not as good as hydro discs but certainly a load better than the best set up canti's in the wet and mud

Unless you're racing (and then IIRC it's only certain classes that aren't allowed to use them) then they're an effective option.

I'd use them willingly if I could find the right frame!

[i]Nothing to do with the fork being carbon as it can happen on
alu or steel ones too. [/i]

As I understand it, it's caused by the fork flexing and pulling the brake cable tighter, which in turn pulls the brake pads harder against the rim. I would imagine an alu fork would have to be pretty flimsy to flex that much.

I got far more brake judder on my kinesis aluminium fork than I do on my carbon planet x fork.

Roter, I don't think so as all that would happen there is that you'd get more braking than expected rather than judder. The consensus which I agree with is that it's a resonance issue in the brake cable which is why a fork mounted hanger tends to cure it.

surely cyclocross is racing and brake considerations are low on the priority list?

We have a winner! 😉

For the same reason, Peaty used to use Hope Mini's: They're just there to take the edge off your speed. Not stop you.

I had to put WORSE pads in my front Frogglegs cos they were too fierce.

cyclocross racing is racing, everything else is a road bike with knobblies

Teetosugars - Member
I run Frogleggs on mine...

Where did you get red Frogglegs? I'm looking for a red set or a blue set.

Cyclocross bikes are for racing, and well set up cantis work fine - end of.
They exist because cross racing pre dates the mountain bike.

If you want to ride offroad use your dammed mountain bike - it's much better and more fun. 🙂

epicyclo

Paul Milnes in Bradford Fella...

Give him a ring- their web page is sh1te..

I use a disk brake on the front of all my cross bikes. But if you're following UCI rules, get mini-v's and run them close to the rim. Hugely better than canti's but you have to keep your wheels true.

I think the canti thing with cross bikes is one of the biggest jokes going in the cycling world. They're terrible, even when set up by an expert and even if the best canti setting up person on the planet sets your brakes up, after ten minutes in the mud they'll need sorting again.

I dunno, I suspect a lot of cross riders don't ride their cross bike offroad for a long time and train mostly either on the road or on a mountain bike and then live with the crap brakes for the hour race. When I ride my cross bikes it's for 3 hour upwards and when you're on your 3rd steep downhill on the drops, you'll realise that a front disk brake makes a massive amount of difference. Not through power but because a light slip of the fingers will give you some brakes instead of haulng away on the lever getting nowhere and ruining your 7th rim of the year.

Teetosugars - Member
epicyclo
Paul Milnes in Bradford Fella...

Thanks 🙂

samuri - Member
...but because a light slip of the fingers will give you some brakes instead of haulng away on the lever getting nowhere and ruining your 7th rim of the year.

But yeah, disks are much better.

If you want to ride offroad use your dammed mountain bike - it's much better and more fun.

riding non tech (and even tech) trails off road is arguably more fun on a cross bike sometimes 😉

this stiffy everyone has for cross bikes being solely for racing is fun, we should extend this theory further-no flash full suss mtb xc jobs except for racing

did i mention my non hybrid non cross bike non mtb bike is a single speed?

I have used the following: Avid Shorty 6 (old style), Avid Shorty 6 (new style), Tektro Mini V's, and Avid BB7, and I am still not happy with the braking on my CX bike.
The only effective brakes I have tried are the Avid V's on my Single Speed CX bike, which meant I could run V-brake drop levers.
I have a set of Travel Agents, which I am going to try with some Vs and Campag STIs, has anyone had any experience with them?

I have a set of travel agents but have never actually used them because having got them, on of my mates recounted his experiences and they sounded awful - apparently great when new but once gritty, the bearing seizes and your brakes work even worse than cantis...

I may give them a try one day but I can't say that I'm that desperate to at the mo.

planet x carbon forks here with froggleggs(sp?)
when first set up got really bad vibration on front end (oh how my "mate" laughed when i wacked them on hard on in 1in4 hairpin and nearly damaged my underwear)
solution for me was work really hard at getting the pad to rim distances equal by adjusting the straddle cable lengths

The brakes on my first cross bike were terrible and I never managed to get them to work quiet right. They worked ok for racing but having strong brakes improves your confidence no end and you end up going faster and using them less. My current bike brakes really well and I can stop quickly with no juddder or hang cramp. I spend a lot of time adjusting the setup, which seems like a black art and the rims must be clean - I spray lots of WD40 around so much after cleaning it, so am extra careful with not getting it on the rims.
I enjoy riding my cross bike outside of races. It's great for commuting along the canal and getting in some distance using fireroads etc where the mountain bike would be a drag. But I don't really think of this as cross, cross for me is racing. Just as I don't think of riding the mountain bike on fireroads as mountain biking...

Tektro CR 520s are your answer. I've struggled for years with getting decent brakes for my Ritchey Swiss Cross. They are super wide in an old style Deore XT way and they have transformed the bike. They are cheap (under £40 to fit out your bike) and genuinely work better than all the Shimano, Avid, Dia Compe and Empella brakes I have tried in the past. No brake squeal, no brake judder, just considerably more power (particularly noticeable in the wet)and significantly more clearance than any other brake I've used. The Frogleggs were ok but I don't like the lack of adjustment to toe in the pads. The other brakes are all lower profile which simply don't work as well with drop levers.

I use the crosser regularly on mountain bike rides and finally feel that I have brakes that will stop me. I had considered getting a disc specific crosser frame but given how good the Tektros have been, I'm not going to bother any more. 😀

Hope this helps?

Cheers

Sanny

I could set my tekros up just fine and super powerful too, only the pads wear so much so quickly it necessites constant faffing to keep them working properly, then the rims wear out super quick too, and a tiny knock to the rim throws the rim out of true enough for it to be a PITA. So I'm switching to disks.

I disagree, i dont have any intension to race my cross bike and bought it 2nd hand for commuting and none technical trails and I do ride both types of trail.

I had cantis = crap.
I had froggleggs = better but still not great.
I replaced them with a mechanical disk by avid up front and Vees on the back with a travel agent to allow full size Vees = good.

Did you get a 'proper' cross bike then ADH?

Yup, just arrived today, Uncle John in pillar box red. Reet lovely it is too.

Considered getting mounts brazed to my steel raleigh, espec seen as I was going to get it sprayed pink anyway, but its too much hassle. So I'm gonna sell it.

"As I understand it, it's caused by the fork flexing and pulling the brake cable tighter, which in turn pulls the brake pads harder against the rim. I would imagine an alu fork would have to be pretty flimsy to flex that much."

roter, yes it's exactly that. we found the judder on our 'cross bike to be an issue (like most 'cross bikes tbh) and isolated it to a change in cable tension caused by the distance in cable anchor points changing due to flex. as the cable ran from top of head tube to fork it changed the braking pressure as the fork flexed back, until fork spring forced it forward again. basically the flex sets up a brake force variation that can set up a resonant vibration in the system. If you then take the mount off the top of the steerer and mount it on the fork, the cable length / tension doesn't vary as much as it all flexes as one system. no resonance then.

so, a fork-mounted hanger, or mini-v's are the answer.

oh yeah, to answer the original q - yes, they are, racers don't use them much!
the issue is that the use of 'cross bikes has changed in the last year or 2 so people now expect different things from a 'cross bike, yet most 'cross bikes are race-focussed.

There is someone selling these on Ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130343707735&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
They are Tektro CR-520 branded as Colorado but at £28 the pair are pretty good value.

Doug

"As I understand it, it's caused by the fork flexing and pulling the brake cable tighter, which in turn pulls the brake pads harder against the rim. I would imagine an alu fork would have to be pretty flimsy to flex that much."

Blimey you guys must have some flex in those forks to alter cable tension!
TBH I thought it was generated by the pads not correctly toed in. They start the judder as they prematurely grip and release (snatch), this gets amplified through play in the cantis and brake bosses, ultimately then violently flexing/juddering the forks.

Can't really see location of cable hanger causing or contributing to the problem

CR520 are £17 at CRC at moment - you might just need the front one - shouldn't have the same judder problems with the back one.

"As I understand it, it's caused by the fork flexing and pulling the brake cable tighter, which in turn pulls the brake pads harder against the rim. I would imagine an alu fork would have to be pretty flimsy to flex that much."

Blimey you guys must have some flex in those forks to alter cable tension!
TBH I thought it was generated by the pads not correctly toed in. They start the judder as they prematurely grip and release (snatch), this gets amplified through play in the cantis and brake bosses, ultimately then violently flexing/juddering the forks.

Can't really see location of cable hanger causing or contributing to the problem

You might not be able to see it but that is EXACTLTY the problem, try it. big bikes have always suffered with judder from the front end but if you move the cable hanger to the fork crown it vanishes.

"You might not be able to see it but that is EXACTLTY the problem, try it. big bikes have always suffered with judder from the front end but if you move the cable hanger to the fork crown it vanishes."

Sorry Guys but that sounds like a load of boollocks to me! 🙂
Any flex in the forks will be horizontal so will not pull down on the cable increasing brake pressure. Also what does the size of the bike matter?
Back in the days when mountain bikes had cantis brake judder still occurred if the brakes weren't carefully set up and toed in.

What about Magura's? They used to do road versions (HS66 & HS77) which come up on Ebay every so often - but I'm sure you could get the HS33 or HS11 levers to work - maybe 😕

As someone who got a cx bike quite late, and maybe isn't looking at things with traditional eyes I wonder how the " its racing, the bikes aren't meant to stop, ya choob!" comeback would work in other sports.
Would formula 1 be better with 1940's drum brakes? would descending off the Tourmalet be better in the TDF wth flexy single pivots? would downhill mountainbiking be more exiting? 🙂

Sorry Guys but that sounds like a load of boollocks to me!

Regardless, forks flutter back and forth, the steel forks on my tourer flutter alarmingly when the bike is laden and I break hard. When the pads are against the rim even tiny fluctuations in cable tension (from fluttering forks) can fluctuate braking effort sufficiently to set up a resonant frequency.

anotherdeadhero - Member
Regardless, forks flutter back and forth, the steel forks on my tourer flutter alarmingly when the bike is laden and I break hard.

Anyone wanting to do a bit of research on this just needs to ride an old steel track bike converted to the road. Most have nice skinny front forks.

Once they are fitted a front brake (which usually involves drilling a mounting hole) the full joys of brake judder can be experienced 🙂

Has anyone got any pictures of a fork mounted hanger the brakes?

I am fed up with my Tektro Oryx for same reasons, poor stopping and juddery fork and like Sanny I have moved over to Tektro CR720s (like 520s but with cartridge pads and a slightly different finish). Still to get delivered but on reading a few forums and talking to folk in the know it seems these wide canti's are the future (or is that the past as they are a bit retro!) - seems like this brake is best compromise between power and clearance for mud and rims.

As someone who got a cx bike quite late, and maybe isn't looking at things with traditional eyes I wonder how the " its racing, the bikes aren't meant to stop, ya choob!" comeback would work in other sports.
Would formula 1 be better with 1940's drum brakes?

but back to the OP and using yr analogy then using a cx like a mtb is like say using a le mans car for a rally circuit then complaining it keeps grounding

the full joys of brake judder can be experienced

Aye, its like ABS, but with more death.

Coleman - I'm afraid you are wrong, fork flex affecting cable tension IS the problem. I've cured a number of cross bikes using a fork mounted cable hanger...

"Blimey you guys must have some flex in those forks to alter cable tension!"

coleman, it's the same flex that stops you getting numb hands over the bumps, about 1/8" - 1/4" fore and aft is normal under pressure from most types of fork and that is more than enough to vary the brake pressure.

roter, just look at the Vapour on Genesisbikes.co.uk, it has one this year. we'll have stock of spares soon.

"Any flex in the forks will be horizontal so will not pull down on the cable increasing brake pressure. Also what does the size of the bike matter?"

1 - fork tip movement fore / aft has an up and down component as it moves in an arc, thf fork flex moves the brake in relation to the steerer mounted hanger

2 - size of bike matters as a longer head tube means a greater distance between brake and hanger, hence a bit more judder potential due to the cable being longer, but more of an issue is a bigger rider puts more weight on the fork and hence more flex.

coleman it's not all bollocks, it's a simple cause! ) but you're right that toe in can be an issue, it tends to set up a far higher frequency vibration though (length of moving part / variation causing the movement) and tends to cause squeal more than proper judder.

Sorry guys still can't accept this is the cause of the problem. I hear what you are saying but 10mm of flex at the fork tips will translate to less than 1.5mm of fore/aft movement at the bosses. Even taking into account this travels in an arc, the distance between hanger to brakes can only vary by much less than 0.1mm. With all the play in the system surely this cannot significantly increase pad pressure at the rims.

I still maintain incorrectly toed in and set up pads are the primary cause of the problem. They start the judder as they prematurely grip and release (snatch), this gets amplified through play in the cantis and brake bosses, ultimately then violently flexing/juddering the forks.

Many cross bikes cannot be fitted with fork mounted cable hangers as there is no hole at the crown

can only vary by much less than 0.1mm. With all the play in the system surely this cannot significantly increase pad pressure at the rims.

Regardless, this is the case. Its not the brake pads catching and releasing that causes the judder, you're right that this would not be enough alone to cause so much judder.

What it is doing is setting up a harmonic, a resonant frequency that just happens to be additative. The fore and aft flex of the fork matches the slight snatching of the wheel, which matches the resonant frequency of the frame, and so the judder gets bigger and the harmonic self perpetuates - until something changes, like a different setup or getting off the brakes.

Many cross bikes cannot be fitted with fork mounted cable hangers as there is no hole at the crown

You used to be able to get plates that fitted to the brake hangers, with an integrated stop, no idea if you can still get them.

Nicked from the Kinesis website.....

We have always lead the field in Cyclocross frame and fork design.

Now, our latest RC09 fork is way out front again with it's super lightweight, 460g monocoque construction and radical leading edge blade shape.

The optional brake hanger coupled to the advanced blade shape, allows powerful, judder free braking that is just not possible with other manufacturers, outdated designs.

The forged alloy hanger keys and bolts to a specially shaped crown and eliminates the need for a steerer mounted hanger. This serves two important purposes;

1. It does away with the long drop of inner cable between the top of the headset and straddle cable. In standard 'cross fork designs, minute changes in length caused by flex in the fork under braking, cause resonance in this area that leads to judder in some circumstances [mostly on harder surfaces with larger frames and riders]. The use of a crown mounted hanger completely eliminates this problem.

OMG! Uber noob pwnd 😆

"OMG! Uber noob pwnd" Ooer! that doesn't sound very polite.

Ok I give in. I'll surrender to the wisdom of the forum.
A couple of points raised on this thread;

"but more of an issue is a bigger rider puts more weight on the fork and hence more flex"

"mostly on harder surfaces with larger frames and riders"

makes me wonder if the problem didn't exist until lardy mountain bikers started riding cross bikes not for their intended purpose.Ho Ho 🙂

makes me wonder if the problem didn't exist until lardy mountain bikers started riding cross bikes not for their intended purpose.

ps edit - good post from the kinesis site

but back to the OP and using yr analogy then using a cx like a mtb is like say using a le mans car for a rally circuit then complaining it keeps grounding

really? a track car used off road? surely more like a non rally car on a rally course?

😉

The thing that I was trying to get across was that 'cross is the ONLY wheeled sport I can think of where having purposely poor brakes is seen as a positive, almost a badge of honour!. Now on some grassy flat courses crap brakes wont make any difference, but on more technical ones/ 3 peaks style events, having brakes you can have confidence in can only be a good thing right?
The fact that the serious riders often change bikes mid race 'cos their brakes are clogged up with mud shows that there's room for some improvement in design.

Changing bikes mid race - what, like road racing?
Cross is about having the lightest, fastest bike for a specific kind of course. Go to a European race and see just how fast they're riding round.
The 3 Peaks is a special race which really has no relationship to the rest of cross.

I'm not going to argue with Kinesis, they know best, but I've never ever suffered vibration on any of my cross bikes and I've always put that down to careful brake set up.
However.........
I did once suffer it whilst warming up, only to find that it was down to a slight buckle in the rim, changed the wheel and it went.
I have also noticed it with new pads and rims, but that was mainly with the old style rims without bare braking surfaces, but you could see clearly that it was the coating coming off causing the problem.
I'm curious to see if anyone is using fork mounted hangers at next weekends race.

I've got XTR v's on my Singlecross I've not had any judder.

Now I know why 🙂

I do get horrendous squeal if I don't line the pads up properly, though.

I cannot say that having terrible brakes is a badge of honour at all. The brakes are quite adequate, even good on my latest bike. I've been in races where people disconnect their brakes for clearance and just stopping pedalling is enough to stop you dead. It's daft to compare something like Formula 1 to that just because there are wheels involved in both.

Discs may well be a better solution but aren't allowed and them are the rules. Otherwise we'll continue to tweak equipment to get that advantage. Most riders are far more interested in tyres and getting more grip than the brakes, which says to me that most people are able to set their brakes up to be more than adequate.

Roter Stern - Member

Has anyone got any pictures of a fork mounted hanger the brakes?

[img] [/img]

Tektro part number 1272AF

that's the one we use, it does the trick.

"makes me wonder if the problem didn't exist until lardy mountain bikers started riding cross bikes not for their intended purpose.Ho Ho "

there's some truth in that coleman! ) lardy or not, it's the change in use (and wider use) that has made a non-issue to 'cross racers become an issue to us lot.

back in the day, I remember the first time i rode on discs on properish forks, after going from avid sd5's on an indy c. I were going down the steep muddy rooty bit on the pink heifer and nearly went over the bars when I mashed on the levers. jumpers for goal posts etc.

Thanks for the pic mrmichaelwright! 🙂

Available from FisherOutdoor so any decent bike shop should be able to get them for you.

Ooer! that doesn't sound very polite.

makes me wonder if the problem didn't exist until lardy mountain bikers started riding cross bikes not for their intended purpose.

Sorry, I was jesting with you.

This is def the case, I'll admit, but it also happens on my tourer when its laden with F&R panniers & kit too.

on the tourer i only get it with no front panniers

without panniers or with just rear bags it is terrible, so much so i shall not be touring on carbon forks again