[Closed] Cycling in London #2 (RLJ content)

Now I do actually know a bit about this; RLJing carries a maximum fixed penalty of thirty pounds, AKAIK. Assault ranges from Conditional Discharge to several years in jail, depending on the particular case and severity of the assault, if convicted.

Hmmm....

I've done my own edit for you, Fred, boy o chum.*

*draped in sarcasm

Sorry, did you say you had proof that I did what you're accusing me of? On a public forum?

Y'know, cos if, like you're going to claim something as fact, you kind of need evidence to back it up...

You've gone and got yourself all wound up over something you've imagined, about someone you've never met but appear to have taken quite some interest in, on the internet.

😕

Personally I find doing woodwork very therapeutic. In fact, I'm currently designing something as a result of inspiration I gained from my visit to the V+A yesterday.

What's your favourite gallery or museum?

👿 Pathetic little man!

No, don't know that one.

Is it in Paris? New York?

You'll have to help me out here...

You really sink this low? Well, not a surprise really 🙄

Saw this [url=

I thought it was quite cute, and really rather practical too.

[img] [/img]

What do you think?

gcse craft project B-

What do you think?

That you are trying to derail the thread and not properly address the accusation made above. Did you edit that comment or not?

Oh yeah it's crap, but fun nonetheless.

Don't you think?

Reminds me of the Death Star repair droids:

[img] [/img]

That you are trying to derail the thread and not properly address the accusation made above. Did you edit that comment or not?

Remind me again what it has to do with you?

And why you feel I should even deign to give you an answer?

If you really want to know, why don't you email me about it? My email's in my profile, you see.

heard a great saying from a friendly Police officer at the pub some years back; "if you ride like a c*nt, you will get f*cked"

He sounds like a delightful fellow.

Oh yeah it's crap, but fun nonetheless.

Are red lights there to make us follow rules or keep us safe? I think it's the latter. Yeah, we can all jump the lights. It's easy, you don't have to be smart or brave, look around, nothing coming, it's perfectly safe, I'll just ride acros.....BANG!!!!!

The lights are there to protect you, as a vulnerable road user especially.

Obviously it's your choice, hope you do actually see *every* car that's coming. The stats for cyclist deaths in London suggest that some people get it wrong. But you guys won't will you?

No, I won't.

TBH, it is one of the things that makes riding in London tremendous fun!

Ride in London everyday and I don't see the point in red light jumping.

The way I look at it, people don't rlj to get to the destination quicker as I will always pass them again if I have been sat at the lights 😆 they're just lazy people.

I agree there are some lights which would be ok to jump, but don't. Often think would I do this if I was in a car.

Why make riding in London any more dangerous than it already is?

samuri - Member

Are red lights there to make us follow rules or keep us safe? I think it's the latter. Yeah, we can all jump the lights. It's easy, you don't have to be smart or brave, look around, nothing coming, it's perfectly safe, I'll just ride acros.....BANG!!!!!

there are many lights its perfectly safe to go across on red - you know when you can see whats coming in each direction

I'd suggest that in built up areas there aren't many that give you much view onto the left hand side unless you're over the line.
What's the hurry anyway?

TJ are you really saying its ok to JRL?

When i saw hitted biker in Richmond last year i have no more willing to drive in London roads, there is much more green and nice space when in public London roads...

and, if you are involved in a RTA, forget any compensation if you are found RLJ, which with the spread of CCTV, is not hard to prove...

Not true. There was a case recently where a speeding taxi took out a RLJ cyclist, yet the cyclist managed to claim some damages on account of the taxi's excess speed:

[url] http://cycling.access-legal.co.uk/2011/12/red-light-jumping-cyclist-still-makes-damages-recovery.html [/url]

I'd suggest that in built up areas there aren't many that give you much view onto the left hand side unless you're over the line.

There's one near us which is a T junction, with a mandatory cycle lane across the top part of the T. Run that red light and the only thing you should encounter is other cyclists doing a right turn out of the other part of the T. Of course, many of the zombie RLJs fail to look out even for that...

There's just one red light that I run, and it's one of those stupid traffic lights at the end of a bus lane to give the bus priority into the queue of traffic. Unfortunately, despite the signs saying that it's OK for bikes to use the bus lane, the traffic light can't be triggered by bikes, so if you stop, you'll be waiting for the next bus.

Interesting example. I don't know any like that near me. Pigface, Esher Shore, would you say it's OK to jump that one?

Some might say yes, but buses come along pretty regularly, and anyway, what's the rush?

Elfin, What helmet do you wear for RLJing?

Specialized S-Works, or sometimes if it's particularly cold I wear my old Met Scudo cos it's less vented keeps me head warmer.

RLJ'ing is dangerous, but more importantly it's selfish.

It makes other road users hate us and also makes them more likely to ignore traffic signals themselves.
Which just makes everyones life a bit more stressful, dangerous and unpleasant.

Whilst I'm not bothered if some idiotic cyclist gets killed RLJ'ing, I do feel sorry for the driver of the other vehicle involved.

Yeah but Rusty; there's a difference between RLJing in situations where it's [i]perfectly safe to do so[/i], and someone being an idiot.

My experience of riding in London has taught me when it's safe to do so, and when it's not. So I use that experience to ensure I have a safe and pleasant journey.

I also ride on pavements and stuff sometimes. Shock horror! What a naughty boy I am...

Yeah but Rusty; there's a difference between RLJing in situations where it's perfectly safe to do so, and someone being an idiot.

No there isn't. Everyone still thinks the RLJ'er is a selfish tosser.
I couldn't care less if the RLJ'er thinks it's safe or not, they are still exhibiting behaviour which makes everyone elses life a little worse.

If you can't see that, then you're part of the problem, frankly.

I couldn't care less if the RLJ'er thinks it's safe or not, they are still exhibiting behaviour which makes everyone elses life a little more unpleasant.

Don't be so melodramatic. Tell you what, come and ride with me in That London, then you'll actually get a fairer picture of how I ride.

Everyone still thinks the RLJ'er is a selfish tosser.

I couldn't care less. I think people driving well over the speed limit in town, using mobile telephones whislt driving, not using their mirrors, driving dangerously etc are all 'selfish tossers'.

The difference is, their behaviour is far, far, far more likely to result in serious injury or even death.

This is what it comes down to.

If you can't see that, then you're part of the problem, frankly.

Nonsense. That's like saying if you ever drive above the speed limit, then you are 'part of the problem' of accidents caused by speeding. Are you?

I was once fined for startling a goat, on my bicycle.

It's true. 😳

It makes other road users hate us and also makes them more likely to ignore traffic signals themselves.

This always gets trotted out on threads relating to any cyclists behaviour, and to me it's just bs for STW hand wringers. Whilst riding home one night last week I saw a van pull the wrong way up a one way street to make a delivery near the bottom of said street, seemingly to avoid the time heading round the block, it niether made me hate van drivers or want to head the wrong way down a one way street.

Don't be so melodramatic. Tell you what, come and ride with me in That London, then you'll actually get a fairer picture of how I ride.

It's not melodramatic, it's true.
Sorry if it makes you uncomfortable.

I couldn't care less. I think people driving well over the speed limit in town, using mobile telephones whislt driving, not using their mirrors, driving dangerously etc are all 'selfish tossers'.

The difference is, their behaviour is far, far, far more likely to result in serious injury or even death.

Really? Could you show me the stats that back this up? Or are you just trying to justify your selfish behaviour again?
Do two wrongs actually make a right after all? 🙂

That's like saying if you ever drive above the speed limit, then you are 'part of the problem' of accidents caused by speeding. Are you?

This always gets trotted out on threads relating to any cyclists behaviour, and to me it's just bs for STW hand wringers. Whilst riding home one night last week I saw a van pull the wrong way up a one way street to make a delivery near the bottom of said street, seemingly to avoid the time heading round the block, it niether made me hate van drivers or want to head the wrong way down a one way street.

Well good for you.
However, humans use others' behaviour to justify and legitimise their own. You are the exception that proves the rule. 😀

And the continued constant drip, drip, drip of selfishness and thoughtlessness makes our lives more stressful and uncomfortable then they otherwise could be.

Really? Could you show me the stats that back this up?

With pleasure:

Pedestrian casualties 2001-09

Killed by cycles: 18
Seriously injured by cycles: 434
Killed by cars: 3,495
Seriously injured by cars: 46,245
Figures apply to Great Britain. Source: Department for Transport

From this BBC article.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13040607

And more:

Great Britain cycle safety statistics

In 2008, pedal bikes made up 1.8% of urban, non-motorway traffic but were involved in just 0.25% of pedestrian deaths and below 1% of serious pedestrian injuries
During the same year, there were 13,272 recorded collisions between cars and bicycles, resulting in the deaths of 52 cyclists and no car drivers or passengers
A study of collisions between cyclists and other vehicles from 2005-07 found police allocated blame to drivers in 60% of cases, to the cyclist in 30% and to both parties in the remainder
Source: Department for Transport

some people run red lights, some don't.
that's their choice, and they choose to suffer the consequeneces whether that be a police fine, some pedestrian fist pie or being flattened by a an artic.
.
my questions is why bother? what are you in such a rush for that you can't wait one minute for, at most? or is it the 'rush' of breaking the law? or are you racing against other cyclists?

So where are the stats specifically relating to RLJ'ing?

See, selfish people can always justify their behaviour.
Things are always someone elses fault.

Well good for you.
However, humans use others' behaviour to justify and legitimise their own

I just believe most people can differentiate between between the actions of an individual and those of a group, and most people take responsibility for their own actions. By your logic if I saw a white teenager shoplifing, I would have to assume all white teenagers are shoplifters, and it would be fine to also nick something from that shop because the teenager did. It doesn't seem right to me, but keep going.

smell it - if you are already predisposed to dislike a certain group, you WILL use the behaviour of one individual to define that group as a whole.
Happens all the time.

And yes, the behaviour of others does influence our own.

I've commuted the same route in London for 5 years.
I've noticed two things:
- more cyclists
- more cyclists willing to jump red lights
- more pedestrians pissed off with cyclists willing to jump red lights
QED

But it's totally dependent on each individual situation, in't it Brakes?

I mean, RLJing round Parliament Square or somewhere would be insane and utterly stupid, not to mention extremely dangerous.

But when it's late at night, there's no traffic or pedestrians, and I want to get home, I'm not going to be stopping at every flipping light, cos it's just pointless.

Or how about times when a ped presses the button, but then crosses before it turns green for them, and then you get to the lights and they've turned red. No-one else about to cross. I just ride through 'em.

my questions is why bother? what are you in such a rush for that you can't wait one minute for, at most?

TBh, I doubt I run more than 10-20% of all red lights at all times, really. Even if I'm in a hurry, I'll always ride in a manner where my own safety is priority. Funnily enough, this happens to also coincide with needing to ensure safety to pedestrians and other road users.

Loving the sanctimoniousness on here.... 😆

if you are already predisposed to dislike a certain group, you WILL use the behaviour of one individual to define that group as a whole

if I ... already had a grump against [s]saw a[/s] white [s]teenager[/s] teenagers, and saw just one shoplifting, I would [s]have to assume all white teenagers are shoplifters[/s] point and say 'see!'

all of us do this all of the time.

it's the way we're wired.

but we can choose to think around it a bit.

on the RLJ'ing, i realised the other day that i sometimes do the opposite; i stop if it's green.

there's a junction on my way home which can be tricky to cross on 'green'; it's uphill, and it's a long way across, and if i ride through the green light just as it changes, i find myself in the middle of the junction with cars accelerating towards me.

so if it's green, i stop and wait for the red, so i can go ahead of the line and wait for the green, so i can nip across before anyone get's a chance to kill me.

smell it - if you are already predisposed to dislike a certain group, you WILL use the behaviour of one individual to define that group as a whole.

If some ignorant knob has decided to hate all cyclists, I'm not going to waste energy trying to change their onions, quite frankly. I'm too busy just getting on with riding my bike in a manner which ensures my own safety is paramount. 😐

By jumping red lights 😉

But it's totally dependent on each individual situation, in't it Brakes?

if we extrapolate, you are condoning the ignoring of traffic signals by cyclists.
so if all cyclists did this without fear of repercussion, knowing that they did so within the law, what would happen?
bedlam? maybe not.
more accidents? probably.
some cyclists may have the benefit of common sense and the ability to recognise when it is safe to cross the road, others need to be guided by traffic signals.
the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the (arrogant) few.

Loving the sanctimoniousness on here....

Why is it santimonious to expect cyclists to behave with the same consideration that you expect from car drivers?

Do as I say, not as I do eh Elf?
We've got a word for that, beginning with 'h'.

Why is it santimonious to expect cyclists to behave with the same consideration that you expect from car drivers?

There are significant differences between cyclists and cars though. Not least speed and size.

I do think RLJing is a problem, but this is because too many people do stupid things. And yes, it's increasing disproportionately with the number of cyclists in London especially.

Yes, it needs to be addressed.

But then so do myriad other issiues which affect our towns and cities. Not least, the number of cars on the roads.

As for red lights and cycles; how do other countries differ? Are there other countries where cyclists are legally allowed to run certain red lights? What is the affect on road and pedestrian safety in such places?

The issue needs addressing sensibly and thoughtfully, rather than blanketing all people who might jump red lights as 'wronguns'.