Vets bills will get expensive and it’ll be your word against theirs. And we all know how 90% of the population feel about cyclists.
I honestly can't see their counter claim working, especially off lead on an area that's busy with multi-use, but flip it round and it's a small claim going to a sheriff who has nothing but claimants statements to make a judgement on.
It would be nice if the OP got the funds to fix their kit, but it just sounds like it's getting more painful by the day, it's just the nature of people that's always disappointing, personally i just live with the belief in karma, and hammering frozen sausages into their garden for the dobermans to feed on 🤣
Yet here you are!
If the dog owner genuinely cared about your health, and that of other humans (including wee children - won't somebody think of the children), then letting a doberman off on a shared use path out of sight is a funny way of showing it.
Dog ownership seems to do funny things to some people's concept of society.
I know there are a lot of dogs around, but I think came across the same two one evening last week while cycling out to the pentlands, just before the colinton tunnel. They were charging around while the owner seemed to be paying little attention to them. I had already slowed down, but had to all but stop when one came out of the trees and across the path right in front of me. We avoided each other though. Owner apologised, I carried on.
I’ve got to ask it, you were going uphill, at 4.8mph, the dog hit you sideways, how did you end up over the bars?
Yeah, difficult to glean anything particularly useful from speed at the time of impact I'd have thought.
Unless you've got a full on black box with accelerometers etc showing there was no braking, then it would be difficult to prove you weren't going 95mph or something and braked heavily until impact at 4.8.
The owner does sound like a bit of a div mind you.
Hope you get the outcome you want.
Speaking as a dog owner - a dog off the lead you can no longer see is a dog out of control.
Doesn't matter how good its recall is.
I find it utterly unbelievable that anyone here is defending the dogowner.
Here's a tip - it's a shared use path, acting as a cycle lane, and as a dog owner you're responsible for not causing accidents, In this case the dog came darting out, unexpectedly, and that's 'not in control'.
Sorry for the dog, but it caused the crash, and that's the owners responsibility.
Are animals in the hierarchy for shared use paths?
No.
You have a general duty of care not to injure animals. Thats about it. they have no case at all unless they try to make out you were reckless in some way and even then its thin
I find it utterly unbelievable that anyone here is defending the dogowner
Nobody is, we're adding some perspective.
You have a general duty of care not to injure animals. Thats about it.
Uh huh.
..........................
You have a general duty of care not to injure animals. Thats about it.
And owners of animals have a duty of care to make sure they don’t injure anyone/anything else
Huh, well, one interesting thing to come out of it is that I ended up in an Edinburgh News Article on where to cycle in Edinburgh. I was looking for pictures of where the accident happened and saw this and thought "those look like my worst shorts" and sure enough, it's me riding along the same track back in February 2020. Just look how fast an irresponsible I am.
[img] 
?crop=3:2&width=640[/img]
And owners of animals have a duty of care to make sure they don’t injure anyone/anything else
correct - and the owner failed in the duty of care. Munrobiker did not
An out of control dog earlier this year. No way is that dog under control and will come to heal when asked. I mean look at him he’s got cyclist attacker all over him.
I don't think anyone is implying that the doberman in the incident attacked anyone, but it resulted in a collision by not being under control.
The same applies to a small dog.
Just look how fast an irresponsible I am.
You go that fast, you refract light. I'm not surprised you didn't see the second dog. 🙂
I don’t think I was being serious.
A dog not on the lead doesn’t mean they’re not under control. Oscar is extremely obedient, he’s told to come to heal when I see a cyclist approaching, I then either pick him up or hold his lead.
What if the risk had been noticed and the dog had just been recalled (call, Whistler, whatever) and was dutifully returning to heel with it's owner under perfect control, unfortunatly the timing was such that their two trajectories collided.
Technically the dog was therefore under control and it was all just an unfortunate accident.
<p style="text-align: left;">Not simply defending the dog as my wife had a life changing injury caused by two playing dogs in an off leash scenario but just pointing out that everyone's perception of events and definitions will always differ.</p>
Out of interest, how busy was this path at the time of the incident?
If it was busy, the this places more burden on the dog owner to keep their dogs under close control but if it was "empty" then I'd cut the dog owners a little more slack (though I'd still be telling them to stick their vet bills where the sun doesn't shine...)
IANAL...
Fao op - anything like this in your council area ?
https://www.westlothian.gov.uk/article/34355/Responsible-Dog-Walking
Question for dog owners - if the cyclist is between you and your dog, why not try sit instead of here. I’ve never had a sitting dog throw itself under my front wheel, had quite a few that were running along the path go for it though. (*yes I am down to about 3mph and holding a consistent line)
Drac - how do I know that dog will stay put? Should a passing cyclist be forced to slow down so you don't have to put a lead on? How about other people?
Freedom to do stuff comes with a responsibility to think what other people are going to do in a shared space. Being a mind reader isn't a common skill
I N R A T S but hope you heal up well Luke, and I think you are well within your rights to seek material and PI costs.
The dog owner bias in society is as strong as that of drivers. So many of them think they can do no wrong (not to mention those that hate cyclists).
According to the gov.com website linked earlier a dog which is dangerously out of control is one which has injured someone. IANAL but I read this as the dog has physically attacked and injured someone rather than by way of causing an accident (in effect the dog did not act with intent). We’ve had issues in nearby areas with out of control dogs (yep XL Bullys) and the police don’t want to know unless they’ve actually attacked someone (according the the curtain twitcher website).
Cycling Uk believe you could have a case, may be worth contacting them if you are intent of taking things further. Based on reading the thread I think the dog owner pushing for vets bills is a direct consequence of you asking him for the replacement of damaged gear, I doubt he was expecting a bill for an expensive helmet and GPS (after all a helmet and cycling computer from Halfords is about £50 right?) and has responded in a way which would push you to call it quits.
Dog owner and cyclist here, live SW London so have to use a lot of busy mixed use areas for walks. She does go off the lead on selected mixed use paths but I’m conscious of other path users (and aware of my responsibilities as a dog owner), just like I am if using the same paths on my bike.
Not all cyclists are polite and conscientious, there are a lot of idiots speeding around on bikes without due care and attention (we gets lots of food delivery riders on eeb conversions and muppets on Lime bikes round here who think they own the road/footpath) which could contribute to the clouding of judgement that you were in fact riding with due care and attention. On the other hand dog owners can be an entitled breed as well, I remember being told in no uncertain terms whilst on an Mtb ride that I shouldn’t be riding where I was (singletrack trails, not footpaths, came across her on a fire road) and that if I hit her dog I’d be in trouble, diffused that situation by telling her I had a dog too and as such am well aware of how to ride responsibly.
Get yourself checked out if you’ve had a hit to the head, and best of luck with your recovery and getting this resolved without too much aggro.
how do I know that dog will stay put? Should a passing cyclist be forced to slow down so you don’t have to put a lead on? How about other people?
Because I’ve taught him too. The cyclist should slow own as there’s pedestrian on the path.
Sue them till the pips squeak. Don't be squeamish about the personal injury even if minor, that's just the rules of the game and they are the ones upping the ante, you're well justified in retaliating within the law.
We were knocked off our bikes in the USA many years ago. The state trooper who attended said three words to us. Well, he said about 9 words in total, but only three different ones. "Get a lawyer. Get a lawyer. Get a lawyer."
The point of having dogs under control is to avoid injury to other parties isn't it?
What other reasonable precautions could you have taken to avoid this happening? None as far as I can see
What could they owner have done? Plenty. Unless the owner has a line of sight which includes both his dogs AND both the shared use paths I don't see how the dogs are "under his control" in a way which reasonably prevents injury to others.
I think you could reasonably predict that a dog jumping out at random on a shared use path will at some point cause harm to others. Owner sees dog and path - sees hazard approaching and calls dog to heel/sit immediately=dog under control. Anything else then owner is opening himself to a negligence claim. All IMO of course.
Dog owner here - I'd never consider letting him off lead on a shared path. There are dedicated hireable fields for that or plenty of places away from other people.
While we're throwing out strawmen and whataboutery arguments, do we know if the intent of the dog was to attack MB and it was then dissuaded by the collision? Maybe it was after some sweet, no-fat leg meat, but copped a load of disk rotor instead. It makes you think.
On a more sensible note, please get checked for concussion. My last one was mild but still left me out of sorts for days. And I don't know how many you've had in the past.
mrlebowski - thats under the dangerous dogs act. Irrelevant here. Its under Scots law the dog owner has a duty to keep the dog under control at all times
and they only way to guarantee 'under control' and remove any ambiguity is to have the dog on a lead.
Dog owner in the wrong. End of. Tell him to stick his vets bills and small claims court him/her/them if you can be bothered.
Person has a dog offlead on a shared path = ****
Person then tries coming the ab dabs with a vets bill rather than settling up = even more of a ****.
I’d like to walk away, but now he’s threatening me with vets bills I feel like I need to resist. If he tries to make me pay them, that’d be a real pain.
In your shoes, if I had 3rd party insurance, I'd probably de-esccalate by asking for his insurance details and providing yours "so they can sort it all out without wasting our time". Assuming the majority of people here are right and they are liable that should fall your way. If he knows that he's liable and either doesn't want the premium hike or isn't insured it might just get quickly resolved!
I hope you've got the head and knee checked out. Concussion protocol is such that you could easily end up with time off work (loss of earnings?), and even without physio that knee looked like it might be "worth" more than your helmet!
It’s pretty reasonable to expect dogs & children to be running about in/out of the path and the undergrowth gave a run about.
It’s also reasonable, as many have said, to expect owners of dogs and children to keep them close at hand and under control at all times - they are not a third parties responsibility, they’re their responsibility, and if injury results as a result of their dereliction of that responsibility and duty of care to others, then they need to be made to pay up for any injuries suffered. FAAFO.
I hope you’ve got the head and knee checked out. Concussion protocol is such that you could easily end up with time off work (loss of earnings?), and even without physio that knee looked like it might be “worth” more than your helmet!
I suffered an injury to my knee very similar to that, after my bike dumped me on the ground at about the same speed. The ultimate result being osteoarthritis in two places directly underneath the impact point on my kneecap. As proven by an x-ray several years later after my doctor just shrugged and dismissed it, and a second opinion got a lot of frowning while manipulating my knee, followed by the doctor telling me he didn’t like the way it felt at all, and promptly booked an x-ray at Bath RUH.
The impact damage to my crash helmet also showed that, had I not been wearing it, the damage to my head, just above my left eye, could have proved even more severe. As it was, I had a large graze across my left cheekbone. All that while moving at about walking speed.
That was a pure accident, due to no obvious reason I’ve ever been able to ascertain. I’ve not really ridden a bike since, because of that, I’m too lacking in confidence now, because of my lack of understanding as to the causes, nothing mechanical, or a tyre issue, I’m afraid of something similar doing even more damage and disabling me even more. I used to ride the local Sustrans routes, like the K&A Canal towpath, and even 10-12 years ago, I was having to deal with these sort of issues, I’m sure it’s probably a lot worse, because of the entitlement of ignorant dog and child owners. 😖🤬
So sorry you are dealing with the affects of the collision. I would be glad of their reasonableness and understanding - it’s far from my experience riding with care and consideration.
Apologies - bit of a rant here.
Fairly recently, I’ve been threatened with violence when a couple walking 4 small, out of control dogs in Cannock Chase, dog ran in front of my front wheel. I was riding with my son and my brother.
As an animal lover, the last thing I would have wanted is to injure his dog. I was accused of riding recklessly - but was riding at less than walking pace.
As a stroke and brain injury survivor, I warned him of the likely fatal consequences of him “knocking me out” as he repeatedly threatened. He continued to threaten me stating he didn’t care. I’m sure without witnesses he would have attempted violence.
I don’t go looking for confrontation - but he was lucky that he didn’t encounter a younger more impetuous and healthier me.
I am glad I didn’t respond physically to his aggression, verbal abuse and complete denial of his responsibilities.
He was a thug and bully - probably with issues with his self-confidence and masculinity. I make no apologies for telling him to knock me out as he threatened or finally telling him to **** off.
It's been confirmed that, while I'm doing OK now, I was concussed.
I hope your experience with concussion wasn’t too bad. It can be a miserable experience.
A poster earlier on your thread mentioned don’t be manoeuvred into paying any element of costs for injuring the dog - but they are definitely liable for costs caused to your bike, equipment or resulting from your injury.
Well, a year down the line things are still rumbling on.
This incident left me with concussion, which led to post concussion syndrome, which led to my hours at work being reduced, depression, anger, uncontrolled emotions, massive fatigue and headaches. I have only just in the last week started being able to get out of bed easily before 9am. I've had counselling, I'm on medication, I've seen psychologists, my GP and I'm on the waiting list for various mental health services. I almost failed my probation at work until we realised I was sick.
I lost enjoyment from and motivation to ride my bike, or anything much, for a long time. I wasn't able to do some of the races I had planned and my fitness fell off a cliff. I've gained about a stone in weight.
Thanks to whoever suggested Cycle Law Scotland - I've got a claim ongoing with them. The money isn't the driver - what I'd like is for this guy to be able to say to his mates "you want to keep your dog under control on shared use paths, this is what happened to me", and for them to keep their dog under control in future. Actually, what I'd really like is for the last year of my life back.
Take my story as a warning - please keep your dog under control where there's other people around, even better on a lead. Even a cyclist going slowly can end up with some serious injuries.
I’m a dog owner. I’ve had a few experiences with irresponsible dog owners too.
That sucks Luke, that is a tough year. 🙁
You have my utmost sympathy. I got bitten by a dog a couple of months ago cycling to work on a shared path and the owners refused to admit it had happened to start with despite showing them my leg pissing with blood. They then moved on to I'd been cycling too fast and came out of nowhere despite the dogs running towards me from 100yrds away. I reported it but had no way of realisticly taking it further as the owners simply walked off. Two months on it still gives me pain and there is a bit of a lump.
As I said in that thread, we have a dog fetish in this country and far too many owners just think the world should accommodate their lifestyle without question. Death, Injury, Pollution, Noise.....all acceptable collateral.
Good luck with your case
Really sorry to hear that, nothing more useful to add, I'm afraid.
UK-FLATLANDERFull Member
Out of interest I wonder what folk’s responses would be if it had been a kid on the bike and the injury was life threatening?
I'd like to see the answer too as it was completely overlooked when posted! this very much seems like a case of, as in more and more walks of life now, people misplaced "entitlement" to ignore/unable/unwilling to take personal responsibility for their actions/inactions.
That sucks MB, hopefully you're on the mend now and can get back to full health and get back on the bike.
As in a reply to a strawman argument about replacing an uncontrolled dog, that's out of the owners sight, with a small child also away from their parent/guardians care?
Not sure on the relative speed & inertia of a dobermann compared to a small child, but it makes you think. Mainly that people will think up any old b*llocks to avoid accepting that dogs must be under control on shared paths.
Think of what could happen if a dog ran out into the path of a little kid and hit it. Who's to blame then? Etc, etc.
Anyhow, hope you heal up soon @munrobiker
As always, society needs (or is going to need) people's kids.
It doesn't need your dogs. Keep them under control.
Cue lots of dog owners suddenly discovering their strongly held anti-natalist beliefs:
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-49298720
Actually, what I’d really like is for the last year of my life back.
Damn, that is awful to read.
I wish you well, I hope your recovery starts speeding up soon. The weight will come off very quickly as soon as you are ready to hit the button on riding again.
And I hope that you are properly compensated for all your injuries and lost opportunities. There is a small minority of dog owners who have no clue about responsible ownership and the potential consequences of their poor attitudes.
@munrobiker Hope things are getting better.
Had the kids out on a rail trail the other day. Despite signs everywhere and HC Rule 56 most people had their dogs off the lead. Challenged one couple and they completely refused to believe they were in the wrong.
really sucks, hope you get better munrobiker!
HC Rule 56
interesting, I was unaware of this.
