[Closed] Cranham Riders, just had a worrying conversation.

i am interested, it would be a shame to loose the area, same token i can see the issue over trail damage.

I know cheltenham and County have had dealings with Cheltenham Borough Council and Folk about Leckhampton.

I had wondered how long it would be before something happened, the jumps by the shrine, the number of tracks that have been appearing, the conflict with Jimmy( I wouldn't be surprised if he has been writing a few letters). The tracks got pretty chewed up last winter and are being ridden to destruction.

Tang, the local club will prob be the Bigfoot, we rode with them for a few years. It might be worth you getting in touch. http://www.bigfootmbc.co.uk/

thanks dropoff, thought it was prob them. mr bowens activities are seriously frowned on by the wardens, im sure theres been complaints. it would be a shame to loose the trails and im sure it can work, the woods are big enough i think.

The woods are plenty big enough, far better to ride there than Lecky simply because there is less risk of user conflict, and the bike tracks do keep bikes and horses apart so it SHOULD work, as long as no one goes and builds north shore or anything to obvious.

Maybe it's time that mtb'ers got their act together, as they had to do in Canada around Vancouver. From a landowners point of view it must be a bit of a pi**er to have people digging holes and building jumps all over the place 😉

agreed.

Agreeing with everything in here. Would be a great shame to lose the area and there's no need for so much building n what not

Hi Tang,

Thanks for posting that up - Bigfoot would certainly be interested in lending a hand/voice if we can.

I agree that the key is to keep 'Trail Pixie' action nice and low key, personally I think the jumps that were put in near the Shrine were a little over the top (and rather ugly!) and I'm not surprised if they've provoked this sort of action.

Enforcing a ban could be a little interesting though - it's not like we're riding mini moto's (which have been crushed to great publicity around the country)!

You can keep me in the loop if you like -

chairperson(at)bigfootmbc.co.uk

Thanks,

Andrew - Chairperson, BigfootMBC

Bit harsh to say they were being ridden to distruction. Yes they were very wet and muddy over the winter but you have to think those tracks have been there for over 25 years with very little maintenance.

I only use the bridleway from the Golf course to the Cranham junction so am not really worried about popes wood as I do think it has got silly up there again. But the jumps next to the shrine are OTT IMO.

I am glad it is being looked into as this may highlight the number of riders that use the area and force the local authority to think about dedicating some of it to us. Like they did in the FOD.

thanks andrew, ill stay in touch. voices such as longstanding clubs will certainly be a real bonus if we get to the stage where a serious plea needs to be made to keep riding. if the right relationship can exist between all parties then hopefully a future for biking is a reality in this neck of the woods.

I thought lots of it was private and therefore the NT and FC do not have much or any legislation, only to make sure the bridleways are passable.

Plus in the 20 years I have been riding the woods I have never seen a no biking sign.

its true, however if a local precedent is set there is a possibility of it being applied elsewhere, thats the danger. i think the woodland trust and natural england have some ties with the privately owned woodland (i read something about it in the estate agents blurb when it was all up for sale). their voice is louder than ours! i hope to find out more when i meet the warden. NT wardens dont directly have anything to do with cranham app but they are aware of goings on plus they have woodland that annexes the main riding area that some of us use as access to cranham.

Mmmmmmm interesting one that! Powers of enforcement are very hard to come by (trust me I know)! However I think that the "building" has gone way ott lately, how about a quiet word in the builders ear if you spot em up there? Tang am more than willing to do whatever it takes to keep "my" woodz open for us all to enjoy, will mail you buddy 😀

Seize bikes! Over my icy cold corpse!!! 👿

How on earth are they going to get power to seize bikes in order to destroy them?
This is bullshit of the highest order and is in no way enforceable and against the European Human Rights charter (probably), in that no-one has the right to take / seize anyone else's property, unless you own money on it. The notion of 'tresspass' is not enforceable with seizure..........cock and bull ! 😉

This would be impossible to enforce as there are no rules / laws about 'walking' with your bike through a forest or over land (Freedom to Roam Act), so proving you were biking would be difficult indeed, making seizure impractical and difficult !

...imagine the 'fighting' that would ensue !! (This thought makes me really sad, but a hilarious thought of someone trying to get my 16 stone off my £1k Cannondale.....never going to happen unless you shoot me!)

I do agree that the building which has gone on is OTT and that the tracks we make are getting bigger as more people use them, more often.
We probably need to 'self police' this and maybe take down the jumps and try to repair damaged tracks, maybe even out up our own signs suggesting not to use the routes / tracks etc. This could give us an opportunity to work with, rather than against the NT/ EN or whoever. They are always seeking volunteers.

This would curtail our fun for a while, but maybe enhance our popularity and give us cause and argument to put a strong point across to whoever wants to listen and hear.

I am not a member of BigFoot, but should probably join (really too old, too fat, too unfit!), but think we should be proactive on this going forward.

This is my first post, great discussion....very informative and sensible for public forum ! 😉

How on earth are they going to get power to seize bikes in order to destroy them?
This is bullshit of the highest order and is in no way enforceable and against the European Human Rights charter (probably), in that no-one has the right to take / seize anyone else's property, unless you own money on it. The notion of 'tresspass' is not enforceable with seizure..........cock and bull ! 😉

This would be impossible to enforce as there are no rules / laws about 'walking' with your bike through a forest or over land (Freedom to Roam Act), so proving you were biking would be difficult indeed, making seizure impractical and difficult !

...imagine the 'fighting' that would ensue !! (This thought makes me really sad, but a hilarious thought of someone trying to get my 16 stone off my £1k Cannondale.....never going to happen unless you shoot me!)

I do agree that the building which has gone on is OTT and that the tracks we make are getting bigger as more people use them, more often.
We probably need to 'self police' this and maybe take down the jumps and try to repair damaged tracks, maybe even out up our own signs suggesting not to use the routes / tracks etc. This could give us an opportunity to work with, rather than against the NT/ EN or whoever. They are always seeking volunteers.

This would curtail our fun for a while, but maybe enhance our popularity and give us cause and argument to put a strong point across to whoever wants to listen and hear.

I am not a member of BigFoot, but should probably join (really too old, too fat, too unfit!), but think we should be proactive on this going forward.

This is my first post, great discussion....very informative and sensible for public forum ! 😉

This is a link to the Estate Agents who is selling the 2 lots:

As you will see English Nature 'lease' the land, so they will have no real say over anything unless they are buying the lots....apparently it is under offer and I have a guy getting back to me next week with further details from Strutt & Parker.

We should all chip in to buy it and then only allow 'nude' biking over Cranham and anyone who didn't like that should go over to Lecky ! 😉

I love this attitude. "The land we look after in trust for the public is getting very popular, so let's ban them"

You may jest but the people the live in Cranham village clubbed together to buy some land by them to stop it being developed on, this was last year. If I give you my paypal addy......... 😉

GSter - drop me a line if you fancy coming out for a ride, we've a self-confessed group of 'Old Gits' who go out on a Wednesday who welcome other riders! We're also adding other 'relaxed paced' rides to our calendar...

It's almost worth joining us anyway just for the 15% off you can get in Leisure Lakes (and others)!

OK, enough of a plug 🙂

Not wanting to be a spoil sport but would it be a good idea to limit the size of the groupes that ride around cranham for a while? I've come across (not literally) chelt&county out on their rides before with a group of about 20 odd riders! Wouldn't smaller groups attract less attention? Just a thought....

evening chaps

gster- it may come to 'self policing' & volunteering to keep things natural and tidy in conjunction/communication with NT, english nature, land owners. i hope this would present us in a responsible light and therefore give us some future. lookma- mad the other night, got to have been 30 riders out! weve had it good for a long time, as much as i like the cheeky freedom id like to see many more generations of riders enjoying the trails.

Tang, when were you out to see that many people. I only ever see a maximum of 5 but did see the Bigfoot lot one night with what looked like a club ride with about 12-16 riders so not massive.

last wednesday night, whever me and lookma stopped for a chat long lines of riders passed us, no exaggeration! this cements my view that theres plenty of room for everyone! lookma- ive eurosport at work now (oh dear) did you see contador go today? whos the boss at astana....

I must have just missed them all.

Don't know the area so this might not be relevant but don't p*ss off the Trust what ever you do. If you've got a warden on side that's excellent, they could do with a few more (make that a lot more) like him. As an organisation they've bought into a lot of the hippy dippy sustrans sh1t and are happy for you to ride the 50 miles to the property but they aren't so keen on you actually riding when you get there. Also they do have legal powers over their land above and beyond most landowners, they have a lot of bylaws covering what you can and can't do and they are enforceable (although I think seizing and crushing bikes may be out of even their reach). They also tend to have people with, er, contacts, it's really still run by the landed gentry, they just don't personally own the estates anymore. I used to do a lot of volunteer work for them cos I quite like doing that sort of thing, but eventually got bored of the politics and agendas. Volunteer building legit trails with the FC now, much more satisfying.

Is the wood an SSSI? Does it have rare/endangered flora and fauna? If the answer to the second question is yes then seizure powers may not be too hard to come by. Natural England don't have a duty to prosecute but if the cyclists are damaging rare endangered stuff then plod will become involved and seizure becomes very likely. Wildlife inspectors have no power of seizure (from [url= http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalhealth/cites/guidance/wildlifecod.pdf ]Inspectors Duties pdf[/url]).
The climbing world know this as there have been one or two close calls with gear seizure when it was suspected peregrine or golden eagle nesting sites had been disturbed.

thanks stumpy john, this was my thinking as soon as i met a cool warden, best to cement some relations, that paired with my ,er, contacts( i work in the world of gentry) im hoping to keep the door open, as it were, rather than have it shut in our face at some point.

Tang, worse case, we just come up with a new route that is made up briddle paths. I have been looking at it today and think it is nearly possible but will make the ride boring as sin!

there are some sssi areas around and the NT warden did mention natural england getting police involved at a later date. man, the bridle paths are boring, we need the single track!

To be honest this was always on the cards,Cranham just has got to popular.
The trails are not wide enough and are getting more eroded.look at the racetrack[1st trail from birdlip end]someone goes and builds a new trail down into private woods by pheasant pens is this not asking for trouble?Not cycle related their is mini motoX track in the wood opposite the Buckholt road junction the Birdlip end how longs that been their thats not going to help matters.They have been pissed of with us riding the Portway for years.Would be good to get locals to meet up but what about the people who come from afar wont give jack shit.

Tang....eurosport at work tut tut! Have been trying to follow it on my phone but written updates just ain't the same. Boss of Astana is johan bruneel at the mo, until vinikorof (sp?) gets his way. Back to cranham, how about doing some maintainance....blocking off some of the 'newly' made dh tracks????

could be a good idea, count me in. maybe youd like to come and meet the warden also? going away on thurs for 10days so im going to try and see him before i go. ive just got the feeling in the pit of my stomach that we need to take some positive steps.

Sounds like an idea mate, I'll have a shave and put some clean pants on, am off all next week with no plans so let me know time etc. Is the wardens name Ian?

think so, younger chap from up north with a nice choice of fleece and footwear. poss sunday night ride?

Yep that's the guy, have chatted with him before. Seems like a resonable guy. Am on late for the next 3 so that's a no no! Tues or weds any time of day?

What about a few signs on the DH track pointing the riders to this site?
As they may be a little annoyed that there hard work has either been blocked or knocked down and will then turn into more of a battle than a "save the trail" initiative. Some justification will be required.

Or f*** it and just go up there late one night and flatten the lot.
Then blame it all on Mr Bowen.

Either way you will have annoyed riders and this may then lead them onto returing the favour and blocking the shrine.

12-16 people on a club ride? Hmm, I'd be surprised if that was us (Bigfoot), not that we're not popular of course!

Groups that big tend to be a pain as it kills the 'flow' of a ride; we'd normally split up to keep it around 6 to 8 max...

We didn't do much riding around Cranham last winter either - it was getting chopped up and the mud was so sticky!

...and yes - I was going to say something along the lines of Dimmadan's point; we need to try and engage with whoever built the Shrine jumps rather than just go in and flatten them.
Someone's put a lot of effort into building them and might have got away with it if they'd just been a bit more subtle...

A downhill track down the back towards One Who Waits may work!

The group I saw were all huddled in a entrance to the saw mill. Loads of them.

Cheltenham and County rides have had groups that big, it is why i don't tend to bother going out anymore. Big groups don't work in Cranham, the tracks just don't flow.

Then there is the issue of being to obvious in a group that big, the damage to trails etc.

Is less forum publicity/topics required?

I have been given a name for the jumps on the shrine, i think it was @axroads who told me. Same lot as responsible for the tracks on Lecky.

I am not definite and could be wrong though.

But something needs to be done ASAP, if we have another bad winter the damage might prove to much to ignore.

the point is people need to know that illegal building is a problem, while giving temporary fun, the long term implications are not good. by rights we have no 'right to be there and are riding there on grace at the mo and lets face it legally we're entitled to the bridleways, not any of the good stuff. building is very unhelpful, thats why we need to get together and sort it out. we know that quiet, non destructive riding is tolerated to an extent. a 'battle' is not what we want, just common sense. id love there to be provision for everyone but this isnt likely as were not dealing with large FC land. this is prime cotswold beechwood and very precious to lots of people.

I think if you feel happy to try and engage and then allign with the DH guys and explain the current situation that will be great. Then possibly a few cheeky FC style no jumping signs to stop the riders who are not locals but know where the jumps are. And then possibly in the winter some no riding signs when it is saturated.

Just an idea.

granted, self policing never works. my key point is to try to get everyone together and find a solution. then go from there.

Yeah sweet. If you hold a riders meeting then let the forum know as I am sure you will get a good turn out.

will do,ill start to try and get the relevant groups together over the summer. in the mean time hope the trail is kind to us all.....

[img] ?v=0[/img]

And just in case anyone wants a reminder, this was taken 18 months (ish) ago.

buckholt wood, i think alot of this is sssi/nature reserve, there are some good trails in there....
am i right that the shrine trails are in buckle wood? and do they have sssi status? maybe you know mrmo.

mrmo, where were they put up?

think they were on the carpark op the climb up to the wall on buckholt rd

Ah, the one no-one ever rides through as they normally ride the bluebell wood.

thats the one

But, saying that.The run from there down to the the carpark near the bottom of Cranham hill is fun.

this is the map as per english nature, [url] http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/cotswoldcommonsbuckholtmap_tcm6-1432.pdf [/url]

I would suggest the lack of signs and this map suggests that the higher wood is not SSSI.

But.

[url] http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Great_Britain/England/Gloucestershire/_Texts/WITGLO*/Long_Barrows.html [/url]

and it is a scheduled ancient monument.

that we barrel off the top of....maybe some adjustment needed there. food for thought. thanks for the links mrmo

As detailed above, just took a call from the agent 'selling' the woods (2 lots)
Apparently the two lots have been under offer for quite a while and not moved much in discussions or process.

The two lots are deemed as 'common land' and for that reaosn any change of useage will be virtually impossible and public access restriction not truly possible...i.e. the owner will have no right to fence any of the common land off at any time.

The SSSI aspects are of course a special case and can be restricted for the obvious reasons..........but still no new owner.....the people who wish to restrict access and 'snatch bikes' from naughty bikes only lease the land and actually have no ownership rights or clout etc..........

So...as before, we need to be cautious, pro-active and sensible, making plans to drive a solution together