CyB was also fairly unique as a destination trail centre back in 2000, worth travelling hundreds of miles to. Now there are loads of similar all over the UK why bother?
Because the surrounding area is beautiful and has lots to offer for a large variety of needs.
It would be handy if someone would do a bit more digging into the story.
- What's actually at risk of closure?
- Just the VC bit of the VC, or the whole building?
- Is there really any threat (or realistic possibility) of the trails being closed?
- Why? Is the site not bringing in the money it used to, or has the WG/NRW always been subsidising to some extent?
Any cycling journos reading this are welcome to use those bullets as a starter for 10, as all I've seen so far is a straight lift of the original story on MBR.
Chakaping's right, the details at the moment are sketchy at best.
Reading the articles everything refers to 'visitor centres' and not the trails themselves. Also I might be wrong but at CYB I thought the café and bike shop are independent business's that rent the space from NRW. With the rent incomes and the car park fees how much more additional money does NRW have to put into CYB to keep it operating as it currently does?
CyB, parking charges are 1/5th that of Dalby,
If thats true, are we saying it costs £2 to park all day?
Perhaps I'm a Turkey voting for Christmas but if so, that is nuts. Its no wonder they have no money.
You cant park anywhere for £2 these days.
are we saying it costs £2 to park all day?
It's more than that, I'm sure.
More like £5 or £6 IIRC
What's the problem with the trails there - I haven't been for 20+ years, can't really remember anything other than it being rocky, always meant to revisit, but not often in the area.
What’s the problem with the trails there – I haven’t been for 20+ years, can’t really remember anything other than it being rocky
I suspect you will find almost nothing has changed other than sections closed for felling or trees down. That's not a genuine reply BTW, not a sarky response.
I think that's why the place isn't busy, it just hasn't moved with the times. I don't buy the replies above about people not having money or wanting to travel. You only have to look at DYFI and BPW, even Morzine. There are a good number of MTBers who have plenty of disposable income who don't mind travelling, you just have to give them what they want.
Similar with Afan and CwmCarn, close enough to the heavily populated, relatively wealthy, South East and yet the carpark is pretty quiet on a weekend.
I think that the food and drink offering at the visitor’s centers at both places are uninspiring to be honest.
That's true of most trail centres. The small local business's that helped their growth have generally been replaced by large corporates with expensive food and uninterested staff.
The only ‘problem’ (if you want to call it that - I don’t) with the trails at CyB and NyA compared to places like BikePark Wales is that you have to get to the top under your own steam, not in a mini bus. Perhaps the demographic has shifted in recent years to people wanting more bang for their buck, as it were. For me, enjoyment of my riding is derived not just from the thrill of riding trails at speed, but the whole immersive experience of being on my bike in a beautiful place. And the view down the river valley at CyB certainly ticks that box.
people wanting more bang for their buck
People not wanting to pedal? I rode QECP for the first time today, and as I plugged up the steep, chalky, rooty climbs on the red loop I noticed that it was looking like it hadn't been ridden much, despite being a lot more accessible than CyB. The downhill bits were tricky not only because they were unfamiliar to me but also because covered in deep leaves. The only other person I did see on the red was on an e-bike . Events like Mayhem which require both mental and physical stamina can no longer attract enough people to be viable. Working hard for your fun is just so unfashionable.
Also, the cafe at CyB is better than the one at QECP, and I really enjoyed my ride, even though my Garmin told me my recovery time was 72 hours!
It’s more than that, I’m sure.
More like £5 or £6 IIRC
£6.40 in 2022.
Last weekend, the car park cost me £4.80 for the afternoon
Little hint, the CyB car park machine offers both Welsh and English (it defaults to Welsh) - if you use it in Welsh, it's cheaper than if you use it in English! Not by much - maybe about 40-50p I think when I was there but I was expecting to pay £7 for the day and surprised when the machine flashed up a lower price, £6-something (can't remember).
The only reason I used it in Welsh was cos the guy in front of me had spent ages faffng with the thing trying to get it into English, finally succeeded and paid £7, I just didn't bother putting it into English. We'd both parked at about the same time so it wasn't a time of arrival thing.
I might have underestimated with £2, however, £5 for your half day is amazing value when you consider the cost of a pint of beer, or taking your kids to the underground crazy golf.
It's a fair price and (perhaps as a result) I honestly don't think there's much car park charge dodging going on at all at CyB. Also due to the geography perhaps.
CyB was also fairly unique as a destination trail centre back in 2000, worth travelling hundreds of miles to. Now there are loads of similar all over the UK why bother?
Because the surrounding area is beautiful and has lots to offer for a large variety of needs.
Back when it opened, I was single, had no kids and enough disposable income to spend a weekend in north Wales just riding bikes, so CyB would have had my pennies for parking, lunch, cake, coffee, maybe even something from the shop. This would probably have happened enough times a year for me to know the trails blindfold despite it being a four hour drive. The area being beautiful was nice but irrelevant - it could have been in the centre of a slum if the riding was good enough. We spent all of our time riding and drinking, not sightseeing.
Then family life happened, and any weekend away was harder to organise and was a cost that I felt guilty about if not spending on the family. Weekends away dropped to 'occasional' from 'regular'.
Twenty odd years later, I have a family who are now growing past the point of needing supervision so I can finally spend weekends on my own again. I've ridden during that whole period, so when I've visited CyB is feels a little old-fashioned to me, but also that time period has opened up a huge choice of riding everywhere. There is no need to visit north Wales several times a year when there are so many other places to ride. And I'm not so single minded about riding now, because I'm older and wiser, so I'll have weekends away doing other things - gravel riding, walking, birdwatching, astronomy, gigs, or even with my wife and daughters. 😀
TLDR : we grew older.
Local area to me is about to introduce car parking charges (now almost 2 years late - for various reasons)...anyone, they have been making sure social media is updated and plenty people are seeing the message. About 20% seem ok with the charge; another 25% are asking for confirmation on how it works, the rest of the comments are all dog walkers stating they won't be using it as the £2.50 isn't worth the price to walk their dog and that the place is too busy. From what I can see, those who park to go biking seem ok with the charge; those dog walking or walking don't seem happy that they have to start paying.
Seems properly short-sighted as they just need to go to the cafe and get a takeaway can of juice and they can park for £1.50...but the fact they are now being expected to pay is making them think it isn't worth it. Appears to be very odd to me, but humans do like a right moan when things change...
Word of mouth is that they're not going to close, just looking at different ways of operating. They're something of an outlier as the cafe etc is run and staffed by NRW. I expect they want to reduce costs and risks by tendering some elements to private businesses. It's very much early stages now, so what the future looks like for both sites isn't really clear. News was leaked rather than announced I think.
Appears to be very odd to me, but humans do like a right moan when things change…
They do, but they also love a quick meander about 200m from an easily accessed carpark, preferably a free one. They are also quite happy to damage their expensive cars parking in unsuitable but free places, but that's also fine because the cars are all on finance and will be changed before the damage becomes a problem. 😀
if you use it in Welsh, it’s cheaper than if you use it in English
I find that very hard to believe. This is a government org not some schoolboy car park assistant.
There is however free parking for locals.
Unfortunately, I think CyB and NyA are the low hanging fruit as NRW look to make organisation wide savings. NRW have to maintain their regulatory duties, so leisure provision will suffer. I don't think the threat of closure is due to either CyB or NyA failing/underperforming in terms of rider experience or the trails themselves.
I like both CyB and. NyA as they are quiet and have interesting trails. Both suffer due to the S**t filters that are Llandegla and Cannock., Both Llandegla and Cannock are extremely dull but always busy. Location is key. How can anyone say that the trails at Llandegla and Cannock have moved with the times?
I’m a bit confused by the NRW statement. Given that the visitor centre comprises of a reception, a cafe presumably run to make a profit, a lease to a bike shop and another one to a running shop then why is it impacting on resources? Surely these should be generating a profit into NRW if they are being run properly rather than a cost
Their latest statement has been added to the start of the story. Looks like someone realised consultation needs to be seen to happen?
"I never understood the endless arms race with FS bikes where even an entry level bike is now far more capable than a top tier 2000 DH race bike. You just run out of places to ride, or ride everything massively over biked"
Agreed. I would have thought it makes more sense to buy a bike that's best suited to the trails you have available to you, than to buy a bike that's much more capable, and then complain that the trails you have are too boring. I've sometimes considered buying a bigger bike, a 150mm thing, but then where would I ride it?
Anyway, I rode CYB last summer with wife and kids (10 and 12) on XC bikes and we all thought it was pretty damn good. If I'd been on my own, maybe it wouldn't have been the most challenging thing ever, but then I'd just ride it faster. It certainly had some nice, interesting flowing fun sections.
The cafe was ok (very busy though). I'm never sure what these "visitors centres" provide besides the cafe. They always seem to have unused meeting rooms, rather weak exhibitions etc. Maybe they're just a bit overambitious and just a basic cafe and carpark would be more financially sustainable.
Summit Cycles / Beics Brenin just emailed.
board meeting scheduled for the beginning of February.
...
We expect to know more in the week beginning 5th February.
...
we remain optimistic that Coed y Brenin will continue to offer superb riding appeal for many years to come
...
public meeting to discuss issues around the review of visitor centres by NRW. This will take place at Ganllwyd Village hall at 6.30pm on Thursday 1st February. Representatives of NRW will be there alongside members of the local community & council
The shop and cafe probably do ok but their lease income won't be great for NRW - that's not the point. CyB is a valuable natural resource, not a business.
How many of us enjoy escaping modern life, just to be out in the forest? There is a value (albeit hard to quantify) in doing that and having a place like CyB there for us all to treasure. Any future developments need to be sympathetic to the local ecology and enhance the environment rather than try to dominate it.
Get Ganllwyd is close to CyB but a consultation for Nant yr Arian at ... ... Borth!
Doesn't the CyB Ranger also oversee the Marin trail, so are there any concerns over the long term viability of the Marin ... with its fun off-piste stuff?
Can anyone confirm if visitor numbers are in decline?
I don't think so - if anything visitor numbers have increased. Easily 100k+ per year for each centre. It's more likely the financial cost of running the centres - utilities, maintenance etc are more than the revenue from car parking + leases. Closing the centres saves a few quid in the short term. Obvs, this would be a tragedy.
Personally, I believe there is scope to expand what is on offer. Maybe woodland craft workshops, ecology & land management courses or self-sufficiency weekends, just as examples. CyB and NyA are wild and unique places, which offer so much more than an MTB ride.
Diversifying like this also makes the centres more resilient. I appreciate this is not a flawless business-case but going back to my previous point - NRW is a public service, it's not (and never will be) motivated by profit.
Update this morning from the good folk at Oldskool
Coed y Brenin Update
As some of you may have heard, last night a meeting was held to discuss the future of Coed y Brenin. Unfortunately we were unable to be there as we are currently on the other side of the world but our brilliant friends (and colleagues) Sian and Dafydd Roberts attended and have given us the lowdown (for those of you who know them, I’m sure you will agree that they are exceptionally well qualified when it comes to anything Coed y Brenin related)
The upshot of the meeting was:
- At present, NRW are losing in excess of £350,000 a year in running the visitors centre….
- As a result, they want to make changes to the way the Visitors Centre/Cafe operates
- These changes will not be immediate and will take several years to implement
- The mountain bike trails at Coed y Brenin are not at risk
It’s also worth mentioning that the meeting was so well attended, attendees had to spill outside as there wasn’t space for everybody inside. This shows just how important Coed y Brenin is to so many people.
If you have opinions about the importance of CyB, the running of the visitors centre, what needs to change, what works well, etc, we encourage you to make your voice heard by completing the survey (link below) AND emailing your thoughts to the Welsh Government in order to highlight the significance of the site to locals and tourists alike (relevant emails also below).
https://docs.google.com/.../1FAIpQLSckcLmmnG0.../viewform...
Mabon.Ap.Gwynfor@senedd.cymru
Vaughan.Gething@senedd.cymru
Mark.Drakeford@senedd.cymru
That does make sense. It’s the visitor centre that’s the issue not the whole set up. I think I might have bought a trail map there back in the day. But it’s a lot of space and staff for not much gain
I’ve enjoyed all my rides there. Mainly with son and niece back in the day.
I haven’t been for maybe 10 years. But for those who haven’t been for 20 years they added lots of easier stuff close the visitor centre. Which was is fab for creating the level of fun and distance your family requires that day.
I enjoy trail centres but it was with the family they really came into their own. Enough people about that the kids felt the buzz, easy fire road up, pick and choose fun bits of trail
Well, back-of-a-stamp calculation says another £3 from each of the 100,000 annual visitors will cover that shortfall easily...
@onewheelgood that link gives me a 404 error.
I think the original vision for the buildings was wrong. Why have the two buildings and did they need to be so eco friendly.
I personally would have built a much simpler building (eg Llandegla) and maybe invested more in developing the trails instead.
It would be interesting to see how many families go there and use the more tamer blue and green trails?
Then again, I have never seen the Marin trail be so busy. It's difficult to park there on weekends after 10am.
Well, back-of-a-stamp calculation says another £3 from each of the 100,000 annual visitors will cover that shortfall easily…
Right idea but that's £3 contribution not income. So unless that's all on the car park that's not enough extra spend because there are costs of generating the £3 in most cases.
If everyone bought a £3 CYB mug (for example) you'd be losing (say) £2 of that to stock cost. You'd only be putting £100,000 extra contribution in. Really you need an extra £3 contribution/ gross profit from every visitor. That's a slightly more challenging number because it almost certainly means incremental spending of £8-10 or more per visitor. That's £40 for a family of four. No way I'd manage to spend that much extra a day. We usually end up buying a couple of rounds of coffee + snacks + pasties on a day there as it is.
Just pasting Sian Roberts' post from Facebook:
Dyfodol Coed y Brenin - the future...Post hir - Long post!Following the public meeting on Thursday at the Ganllwyd Village Hall I felt compelled to email the Welsh Government to voice my concerns about CyB's future.The NRW clearly aren't the ones who should be running the centre, their representative on the evening admitted this and she also mentioned Forest Holidays as a potential organisation that could take over the CyB centre.Forest Holidays took over the campsite at Beddgelert a few years ago and there is no longer a public parking at the site, it's now a private site for their customers only.There used to be public access to the cafe and shop on site as well,there isn't any more...They did build a public car park further up the road but it's almost a kilometer down a very potholey forest road that is almost inaccessible in most cars. So people have stopped going there and now park further afield. 'If Forest Holidays are the NRW's idea of who should run CyB we as the current users of the forest and centre could be similarly squeezed out over time.I feel very strongly that the Welsh Government needs to invest in keeping CyB as a trail centre visitor attraction for the public use.The trails need to be funded, the cycling ,running and walking trails. Money needs to be made available for maintenance of the existing trails and the development of new trails.Some could say that I'm biased, well I guess I am, to me CyB is a special place that needs saving.Ganllwyd Community Council are currently looking for a way ahead to keep the Centre open for all of us and they need public support.If you also feel that CyB should be saved please write to the Welsh Government to voice your opinion. The more public interest they get, the more likely they are to discuss this issue in the Senedd which gives our local MP the chance to fight for us on a Governmental level.Correspondence.Mark.Drakeford@gov.wales and cc Mabon.Ap.Gwynfor@senedd.cymruThis is what I sent...Yn dilyn y cyfarfod cyhoeddus yn Ganllwyd neithiwr dwi'n galw ar y Senedd i gymeryd sylw.Rwyf am sgwenu y gweddill yn saesneg am fy mod yn meddwl bod o'n bwysig iawn bod pawb yn deallt.I think that the best place to start is right at the beginning.In 1991 my husband Dafydd and myself started hiring mountain bikes in the Coed y Brenin Forest to individuals and groups of people from local outward bound centres.There were two waymarked trails, a red route and a slightly shorter and technically easier yellow route. Both were waymarked by red and yellow dots sprayed onto the tree bark and were marked on a Forestry Commission map that also had some walking trails on it.As more and more people came to use the forest trails and we all improved technically there was an increasing demand for longer and more technical trails.During the next couple of years we along with the North Wales Mountain Bike Association members, both locals and from further afield developed, cleared and waymarked a trail that was also used to hold the NWMBA races at Coed y Brenin.This trail would later on become the famous Red Bull trail.This was the very low key,unfunded beginning of trail centres...Due to the growing popularity of the centre as a mountain biking destination the Forestry Commission decided that they needed to employ a MTB Ranger to work on their behalf to look after the existing trails,build more trails and secure funding to enable the growth of what was obviously becoming a great success.Coed y Brenin was the first trail centre in the world, paving the way for the many others that followed.Mountain biking grew massively as a recreational activity and there are now well over 80 trail centres throughout the UK,all of them contributing hugely to the economy of the mainly rural areas that they are located in,with many local jobs and businesses dependent on the tourism they generate.Wales, due to how accessible we are from large populations over the border in England has become an adventure destination within the UK with all the activity attractions available here and all the natural attractions, the mountains, the rivers, the sea indeed all the beautiful countryside.According to the NRW they are running the centre at Coed y Brenin at a loss of 350k per year! How on earth can this be? And a building that is less than 20 years old according to the NRW needs a million pounds spending on it in the next few years in repair work.They say that visitor numbers are dropping every year and that they can no longer afford to run the place.This surely must be down to very bad management of a facility that has so much to offer in an area of the tourism industry that is currently growing in Wales.Maybe the fall in visitor numbers is partly ,or even greatly, due to their gross underfunding of the trails at Coed y Brenin over the last few years. The trails after all is what all these people travel here for.There have been no new trails built at Coed y Brenin for years, there isn't even money available for the existing trails to have much, if any maintenance work done on them.Unbelievably there are three singletracks on the old Red Bull trail now renamed the Tarw trail that have been closed for years after some trees came down on them in a storm. These singletracks have cost tens of thousands of pounds of public money to build and they are just left to rot under the fallen trees. Water damage and nature reclaiming them means that these trails are now all but lost as useable singletrack because the NRW apparently couldn't clear the trees off them!The NRW are Forestry Wales! if they can't clear fallen trees, who can?The NRW want to pass on the running of the centre at Coed y Brenin to someone else, they expect whoever takes it on to also take on the million pound spend on the repairs they say it needs.Surely this puts taking on the opportunity of running the centre out of reach of any business or community group and means that only very large, wealthy organisations can even consider taking it on.And without any plans in the future to maintain existing or build new trails where exactly is the business going to come from?It beggars belief that this flagship centre, the template that started the whole trail centre development in the UK has been so badly managed and underfunded by a Welsh Government sponsored body.Coed y Brenin is a huge asset to Wales, a shining example of how something groundbreaking can develop from nothing and bring wealth to an otherwise deprived area.The current centre was built on the back of the success of the old centre on the opposite side of the road, a small unassuming tin shed that had a cafe, a bike shop, a shed for bike hire and a car park with some toilets.It worked just fine, could have done with being bigger as the popularity of the place grew.So huge amounts of public money was sourced to build a new centre.The people in charge at the time wanted a fancy new centre that they could be proud of, money was not an issue,it was all EU funded. Sadly it seems they lost sight of what the building was going to be used for.They ended up with a building that was unfit for purpose, there wasn't even a bike shop or room for the bike hire.A massive oversight you would think in a brand spanking new, very expensive building that had been built as a mountain biking visitor centre!Due to this oversight ,subsequently another building had to be built, with yet more public money to house the bike hire and shop.It seems that the bad management goes back a very long way...If Coed y Brenin was in a country that valued it's assets it would still be at the forefront of trail centre development, fully funded by it's government and run by people that understand it's value to both the local community and the industry that it serves.Come on Welsh Government...step up!Cywilydd i ni ffordd mae'r lle wedi cael ei drin...Yn gywirSian a Dafydd Sian RobertsPlease share and please email the Welsh Government.Copy and paste mine if you like and just add your name.ThanksDiolch yn fawr
@onewheelgood that link gives me a 404 error.
Sorry about that. Looks like it got mangled in one of the copy and pastes. Is this any better?
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSckcLmmnG0KXhK7i7l_WPThHoWsSM9wpYYLdlPhFFEu_MNFRA/viewform
Aha, excellent. Diolch for that link.
Very useful information from Sian there and a good point about the finances and private ownership - quite how CyB can be losing £350k a year is a mystery to me.
It needs to stay in NRW's ownership - selling is abandoning responsibility and not fixing past problems. This is no way to behave!
Really, all that is required are some updates to the trails, put the cafe out to tender. Raise prices a bit and diversify the activities on offer. It doesn't have to make a profit.
Also, my example of £3 per head was not a business plan!!! It was an example of how a seemingly huge figure can be borne by a large number of people, spreading the burden.
Bear in mind NRW has an annual budget of £270m so the losses from CyB represent about 0.1% of that. They also manage several £bn in assets. So I have to agree ownership is best retained by NRW.
Unbelievably there are three singletracks on the old Red Bull trail now renamed the Tarw trail that have been closed for years after some trees came down on them in a storm.
This is unforgivable. We have two areas of officially sanctioned trails down here, run by volunteers. We have always managed to keep all of the trails open after every big storm, normally within a week or two. We don't have the miles of trails that CyB has - we have enough for a couple of days of decent riding - but we also don't have any budget or anybody employed to maintain the trails, it just gets done.
Watched a recent video on You Tube about the issues at CyB; It's a venue for proper (call it old school) MTB riding, and a decent choice of trails, all of which require pedalling.....which in the UK seems to have become unfashionable.
Too many centres just cater for the 'lazy ar5e' riders, who spend all day sending it, and getting a lift to the top. And the MTB media are similar......all gravity/freeride with hardly proper MTB riding....
