Coed-y-Brenin and Bwlch Nant yr Arian at Risk ?

Oh shit! I’ve not seen that. It’s a shame so many people do their best not to pay for parking.

i guess, best worst case, would be that the trails continue but no visitor centre, think Brechfa.

I would imagine this would have a massive effect on the tourist income. I know when ever we head to places like that we spend on accommodation, cafes, pubs as well as supermarkets and other shops. 🤔

It’s a shame so many people do their best not to pay for parking.

I have never understood why people would think that was big or clever - parking is the least expensive bit of mountain biking, surely?

I think they just need to rebrand the parking charge as a trail maintenance charge and more people would pay it.

 I think CyB has perhaps been left behind a bit and hasn't advanced with the capabilities of modern bikes and now needs some more technical features to compete with other venues.

I doubt NRW will make any decisions in the near future; they are in the middle of a huge internal and external review of their recreation provision across the whole country. Nothing will change until that research creates a new policy for future investment*

*I would assume!

Everywhere that NRW look after us under threat right now, the only trail centre that isn't is Cwmcarn as it's run by Caerphilly Council. NRW's funding has been cut massively over the last decade so they're having to do more with a lot less.

I think CyB has perhaps been left behind a bit and hasn’t advanced with the capabilities of modern bikes and now needs some more technical features to compete with other venues.

Apart from Y Slab on the original Red Bull trail and the skills zone nothing has been changed for seemingly decades. I'm up there every few months (not always with a bike) and have noticed that there are a lot more runners and elderly people out for a coffee than bikers in the carpark than there used to be. Still love riding there but it really doesn't have any reason to draw in the new riders.

MTB in the U.K. is absolutely thriving, go to the BPW car park on a Saturday and that’ll be clear.

Very few of the traditional ‘trail centres’ have moved with the times. Those that have (Fod) are still absolutely packed.

Maybe Coed-y-Brenin will scale back and just have a small friendly café on the other side of the road. That would be somewhat ironic....

The parking charge isn't just used for trail maintenance though...it gets consumed and used for wages, machinery, signage and anything else that is needed for keeping a trail centre open. Results in very little being put towards the actual trail building/maintenance.
Unless the parking signage specifies it is used for trailbuilding/maintenance.
Everywhere is suffering...if people want trail centres and want them maintained and developed then they'll need to pay - and it will be a lot more than they pay now, so people don't.

Coed-y is an absolute blast on an e-bike. 

Perhaps going forward they could look at somehow tapping into this growing market?

I think the view that the trails there are a bit dated, maybe due to the fireroads being a bit of a slog.

Obviously the fireroads are a doddle on an e-bike.

I personally think the trails there are awesome, and looking forward to getting back there. The lamb burger in the cafe is really nice aswell!

dc1988
Full Member

I think they just need to rebrand the parking charge as a trail maintenance charge and more people would pay it.

That's just a really risky thing to do. Partly because not all the costs of a trail centre are about trail maintenance, but also an awful lot of them never get close to covering their own running costs, never mind build costs. People tend to imagine they're just paying a couple of dudes with shovels but all it takes is one big storm to run up massive maintenance costs. Basically you can't go down the road of "this money ringfenced for this thing" without risking the logical response of "ONLY this money for this thing".

Much better to have a sensible approach to visitor attractions like this and actually recognise the much wider value, but councils tend to treat mountain biking as being basically a golden goose- there's potentially huge financial benefits but a depressingly small amount directly benefits the trail centres/forestry commission/landowner/whoever except when they really go out of their way to do it.

I don't believe for a second that CYB is a drain on public resources, it's just about who pays and who gains.

NyA has running trails, walking trails, horse riding trails. It also has the red kite feeding which is hugely popular in summer. The mountain biking is certainly a big part but hopefully it has enough general appeal to be worth keeping going. Given the remote location it's never going to be a big draw.

It’s a shame so many people do their best not to pay for parking.

Yep - rock up in a £60k camper van and unload £20k worth of e-bikes out the back but £6 to park for the day is too much... 🙄

Problem is that the parking charges are increased so 10% of the people that do go and do pay think "sod that" and they find ways around it like parking down the road - so the total revenue decreases. So the parking charges are increased again to cover the shortfall and a further 10% of riders do the same.

Catch 22 - either people go elsewhere or they find creative ways around it which normally involves royally pissing off all the residents within 5 miles by parking in villages and on verges. And then there are complaints about MTBers and it all becomes too much for Forestry or the council plus visitor numbers are down so it's easy to close it down or re-purpose the venue.

Anyone saying the CyB hasn't moved with the times is missing the point a bit. It's busy at weekends still when the weather is ok and sure it might be a bit tame on a 170mm enduro e-bike, but lots of people still ride 27.5" bikes from Halfords or whatever. Those are literally the new riders we all need to bring in, most people don't start with a £5k full carbon Orbea or whatever.
If those people can't bike at CyB then Llandegla and Afan will get busier. Or maybe people will try BPW because there are no beginner friendly centres near them. Anyone on the Welsh border knows how crazy Cannock Chase was mid-pandemic when English people couldn't cross the border into mid-Wales.
Ultimately whether you ride that specific trail centre or not, we need to support them, fund them and fight for them because the government isn't.

I can't see anything in the (rather short) article to connect risk of closure to people dodging car park charges.

And I don't think that's very common at CyB anyway.

Personally, I still really enjoy riding there - the trails are great fun on modern short travel bikes and it's possibly the best weatherproof trail in the UK. Even if the VC does close, I'd expect the car park to remain operational and the trails open.

Personally, I still really enjoy riding there – the trails are great fun on modern short travel bikes and it’s possibly the best weatherproof trail in the UK.

Me too, I try to get over there at least once or twice a year, Hotel in Betys, and a couple of days riding locally and it's always a huge amount of fun and still a challenging day out on a bike. Always have lunch at the café and try to spend some money in the bike shop.

Personally, I still really enjoy riding there – the trails are great fun on modern short travel bikes and it’s possibly the best weatherproof trail in the UK. Even if the VC does close, I’d expect the car park to remain operational and the trails open.

yes, I was starting to think I was terrible at bike riding, cyb one of the more technical trail centres and great fun, with good variety and designed to be a challenge at various speeds. Yet lots of people decrying it as boring on a modern bike?

Even better if you know the shortcut on the dragons back, and hoping the end of the red bull trail gets reopened soon.

Nant Yr Arian red is also a great little trail too. Really great to buzz round in an hour and a half.

re-purpose the venue.

What as? The woods will still be there, as will the trails in one form or another.

Seems to only refer to the Visitor Centres.

They SHOULD be making a profit out of the cafes, they really should. Most visitors will have a cup of tea at least.

So if the car parks stay, the trails stay and the cafes stay, is there really any value in keeping the visitor centres open?

In most cases I'm not sure what the visitor centre adds to the day out. Do many people ask about stuff at CyB other than questions for the bike shop. And at NyA couldn't they just sell kite food at the cafe? The info boards around the place can provide most users with what they need.

possibly the best weatherproof trail in the UK

Rofl

If its to tame for your mad skills,  try it on a gravel bike

I'd be gutted if they shutdown the trail centres.  I'm relatively new to mountain biking and Coed y Brenin and Nant yr Arian are both fantastic facilities,  they have trails that are approachable and fun for new riders and you don't have to run a high end bike to enjoy them.   I can roll up and know that I can grab a  coffee then enjoy some really good trails pretty much regardless of the weather and also have something to eat at the end of the ride.

It's not clear yet what the implications of the finding changes will be,  it would make them a lot less attractive as a destination if there was no cafe as there's no alternatives nearby.   I spend money on other things in the area as well when I go, I'm sure it would be a loss to the economies of the areas if they're shut.  Does anyone know if there's a campaign to keep them open?

I also found this on the BBC website

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2zg125rljo?fbclid=IwAR3ScNitQXpWfpAQFlUkz9DNoGR7niCPzR9_YPXAEZTjGM98MpurRz_ttcA

Yes, CyB is the best I've seen for easing in for beginners and then progressing. Lots of example trails for each of the grades in the little practice areas. Then a few increments all the way up, not just one trail of each grade.

Been riding CyB since the beginning and still love it. Certainly has a different feel to some other trail centres but the facilities for various levels of rider are great (took my kids on balance bikes around parts of the Minotaur when they were little). Also think some sections of trail there are up there with some of the most fun bits of trail centre in the UK - Addams Family all the way down to the river for example is superb and given its age, there's a lot a sections which are out of the way which are starting to feel almost natural (can't remember the names but the section down to where the little cafe used to be for example).

Must plan a trip over sometime....

We go CYB at least once a month, we have a car park pass.

The one thing for me is the cafe, they serve food till half 4, the amount of times we as a family have turned up at 3:45 and they have cleaned and shut down.

If they were open we would all have bought food, drinks and cakes.

I think they just need to rebrand the parking charge as a trail maintenance charge and more people would pay it.

They can’t because it’s not true, it just general revenue and in no way relates to the costs of even maintaining the current trails let alone build new stuff.

As others have said the game has moved on and they haven’t which is a shame as it’s a great place. In practical terms though for the mtb riders it only has 1 trail to ride which is the beast. The black bull had the slabs added and then left that section stranded in a sea of nothing to entice anyone to go round more than once in their life. You still loose most of your height on a fire road for goodness sake. Compare that to dyfi just round the corner in practical terms.

Yes the west side of CyB is a bit weird with that gnarly bit plonked in the middle of a pretty dull loop.

And there is some off-piste at CyB as well, but it's a fair step up from the trail centre stuff.

This is a golden opportunity to put CyB back on the MTB map. All it needs is some hard work and commitment.

All it needs is some hard work and commitment.

Which also requires a shed load of money.
And there isn't any.

FWIW, I really didn't rate CyB much on my last visit. Admittedly it must be 20 years ago that I last visited (the original CyB) and I got to new CyB with my new MTB and set off and...was rather underwhelmed. And some of the trails were just rubble and so "unmaintained" as to be virtually unrideable, there was no flow at all. Nice autumn colours though and the cafe was decent.

This is sad.  Hopefully it is just one of those "give us funding or we'll just have to do something bad" things.

They can cut costs without closing it. E.g. I had an EV on my last trip and for sure took more electricity from the free charger at CyB than the parking cost.  Hopefully the review simply comes up with a few measures like that.

"final decisions for 2024/25 will be made by our board before the end of March." - I have a long weekend trip in 2 weeks time.... hope it won't be the last.

All it needs is some hard work and commitment

and zero money?
Given they have a funding shortfall, spending more money on a loss making site would be a big ask...

Maybe Coed-y-Brenin will scale back and just have a small friendly café on the other side of the road. That would be somewhat ironic….

It had a much nicer ambience than the new thing which just feels to me like a motor way service station. The food was way better in the old one as well.

I think CyB has perhaps been left behind a bit and hasn’t advanced with the capabilities of modern bikes and now needs some more technical features to compete with other venues.

Although it's fine if you ride a more normal bike eg a HT. I realise I'm in a minority, but I never understood the endless arms race with FS bikes where even an entry level bike is now far more capable than a top tier 2000 DH race bike. You just run out of places to ride, or ride everything massively over biked. Most of the original welsh trail centers are ideal for a SS HT, smooth, flowy and with pretty gentle gradient climbs. Although NyA has a slightly painful SS climb on the longer loop, when you come back into the trail center.

It's a similar situation to the mid-90's when Daf D started building. No money, FC didn't care, visitor centres closing. It doesn't require a load of money spunked on 50ft jumps so people can pay £50, blast off and be gone - lots of places already do that.

It needs time and dedication, spent on the right things. e.g. woodland craft, habitat management, sustainable trail building. None of these things are WOW RIGHT NOW! They take time and effort to create.

MTB in the U.K. is absolutely thriving, go to the BPW car park on a Saturday and that’ll be clear.

BPW is a very different market though. And is/was the only professionally run downhill venue in the UK? I mean that it ran everything from a car park and shop, to the uplift, to the trail building. Not a layby, shuttling up the road, and riding volunteer built trails or uplifts in a tractor trailer etc.

Very few of the traditional ‘trail centres’ have moved with the times. Those that have (Fod) are still absolutely packed.

True, but also not true. I think a lot of centers have their own feel to them, and it depends on their own topography. I'm off to Afan at the weekend, I'm well aware that the main loop is a big fire road slog round the top, but it's January and we're doing something stupid, on stupid singlespeeds and the weather will probably make it more stupid. Afan does seem to have had a succession of bad luck cycles though between harvesting and disease.

More importantly there's the fact that people actually have to get to these places. Swinley is objectively a bit ..... Swinley. But is rammed because it's local to millions of people. It was built to fulfill the needs of people for places to ride. Same with the Tweed Valley, it's local-ish to Edinburgh and Glasgow.

CyB and it's ilk were built as tourist destinations. Whether it's environmental considerations, the price of fuel, ztime constraints, or whatever, people in Birmingham are more likely to drive 30min to Cannock than to remote bits of Wales.

Swings and roundabouts, we either get grants to pay for tourist attractions and attract people. But that only lasts as long as the money does. Or we find funding to build things closer to home. It's no accident that BPW (and FoD) is about as close to the Severn Bridge and M4 corridor as is practicable.

Most of the original welsh trail centers are ideal for a SS HT, smooth, flowy

Hmm. Smooth and flowy are definitely not words I would use to describe much of the red bull side of the road.

I can’t agree with the comments about the trails at CyB- they’re a bit more work but that’s why they’re great! They take more effort than some but that offers a bit of challenge and you really, really know when you’re having a good day because even the awkward ones flow. If everything got smoothed out it would take a lot away from something that feels probably as close to a ‘not a trail centre trail centre’ as I’ve ridden.

IME about 1 in 10 cars @ Nanty are there for the mtb trails, probably a lot higher @ Cyb but it's still not just an issue for riders.

That'd be a big shame, last time I was there the parking machines weren't working so I made sure I spent afew more quid in the cafe instead. That said I find there's too much fire road but the trails are decent enough, Prefer riding the Marin trail tbh though

"Which also requires a shed load of money."

Yet most of the trails in British Columbia were / are built by volunteers with a shovel, Pulaski, bucket and a saw.

people in Birmingham are more likely to drive 30min to Cannock than to remote bits of Wales.

Or llandegla or dyfi depending on what they are into. This is the problem CyB haven’t moved with the times and the competition for mtb riders. They have focused development money on running a family friendly blue and green trails. I guess the question for them is has that added to their financial problems by not attracting the specked numbers or made their whole less deep because it’s exceeded expectations

This is the problem CyB haven’t moved with the times

I think we should also be cognisant of the other factor here, which is that CyB can't physically move. And that is always going to be a factor. It was first built when petrol was half the price it is now. It was deliberately built in that location to try and draw some of the money from richer areas in to poorer areas. Belts have been tightened a lot over those 2 decades and many of the target audience don't feel like they have the disposables to travel so far. Especially as covid brought with it an expectation and reality of having more, better trails closer to home.

Don't get me wrong, the trails themselves are also an issue, but its remoteness is a huge factor that CyB can do nothing about.

(Yes, I know Dyfi even further away etc)

This is an absolute shame.

CyB, parking charges are 1/5th that of Dalby, which is getting left behind.

I usually go to Dolgellau at least once a year for three to four nights. Pay for camping, food, everything else inbetween.

Last year my partner and I noticed how ridiculously expensive leisure/ entertainment was (especially for those with kids- thankfully we don't have any). Minumum £40 per hour per person.

A day at CyB was costing us only £3/4 in parking, perhaps they need to look at this.

CyB was also fairly unique as a destination  trail centre back in 2000, worth travelling hundreds of miles to. Now there are loads of similar all over the UK why bother? 

Because the surrounding area is beautiful and has lots to offer for a large variety of needs.

It would be handy if someone would do a bit more digging into the story.

• What's actually at risk of closure?
• Just the VC bit of the VC, or the whole building?
• Is there really any threat (or realistic possibility) of the trails being closed?
• Why? Is the site not bringing in the money it used to, or has the WG/NRW always been subsidising to some extent?

Any cycling journos reading this are welcome to use those bullets as a starter for 10, as all I've seen so far is a straight lift of the original story on MBR.

Chakaping's right, the details at the moment are sketchy at best.

Reading the articles everything refers to 'visitor centres' and not the trails themselves. Also I might be wrong but at CYB I thought the café and bike shop are independent business's that rent the space from NRW. With the rent incomes and the car park fees how much more additional money does NRW have to put into CYB to keep it operating as it currently does?

@sam3000

CyB, parking charges are 1/5th that of Dalby,

If thats true, are we saying it costs £2 to park all day?

Perhaps I'm a Turkey voting for Christmas but if so, that is nuts. Its no wonder they have no money.

You cant park anywhere for £2 these days.

are we saying it costs £2 to park all day?

It's more than that, I'm sure.

More like £5 or £6 IIRC