Forum menu
So, my current cycle 'club' of which I'm not a member but active participant has regular rides every Saturday morning. Somehow I've ended up leading the fast group for the last 5 weeks on the trot as no one else volunteers. It's all (dis)organished in WA groups with a call for ride leaders and I suggest a route, plan it and upload a link to Strave with the route. On the day people just show up and pick a group (slow, medium or fast). I then nominally lead the fast ride on the day (which may involve shouting directions from the back, whilst trying to hang on, blowing out my arse).
As for group management it's all very democratic will collective decisions taken about waiting for people who have dropped off or just riding on as we're close enough to home and 'they knew the risks etc'. We normally loose a few along the way who either turn back early (wanted a shorter ride) or no one noticed they got dropped. It's a bit ad-hoc but the general consensus is the faster riders like it pacey with no prisoners taken etc. There is a core group who turn up nearly every week and we all know one another, you then get others who turn up occasionally and sometimes make it all the way but mainly not.
Occasionally we have youngish people turn up (to me anyone under 30 looks young and I can't tell the difference between some 15 years olds and 25 year olds). However, if we did have under 18s on the ride, how do clubs manage this - I assume some sort of duty of care applies? We had two random young people on the ride on Saturday, no one knew who they were or their ages etc, but they coped fine.
I was wondering if we did have an accident and someone got hit by a car etc, as a nominal ride leader (in the loosest possible sense of the word), do I have any responsibility to them?
As for asking the club committee, there is none, the club is just part of a local cafe whose owner rarely rides a bike and is never there as far as I can tell. Apparently it is BC affiliated but not many people are members as all you get for £25 is a water bottle and most people have plenty of those.
So I can’t speak about the legalities of it….however as the dad of a fast daughter who rides with the fast group, she knows it’s up to her to hang on. It’s not her ride, it’s the group ride, so being the fast group it’s a hard effort for everyone.
We tend to do a hard effort out to the coffee shop, but with no one being dropped, hard on the uphills but the group waits. The return leg it is then the riders responsibility to hang on or to make their own way home. Pretty much every man for themselves.
We have other ride options, so if the pace is too fast the folks they could have selected a slower group.
For my daughter it’s great training. She’s really between the two groups, B is to slow and A just a tad too fast on the climbs. So she last for about half of the return leg then we drop off and make our own way home.
Any new riders to the group are given helpful advice regarding the etiquette and it is their choice.
So I can’t speak about the legalities of it….however as the dad of a fast daughter who rides with the fast group, she knows it’s up to her to hang on.
On another group ride I do, I was struggling to hold onto a 17 year old girl's rear wheel on a climb - she was really strong! Middle age spread doesn't exactly help either - I'm carrying about 13 kg more than my distance memory race weight 😉
We tend to do a hard effort out to the coffee shop, but with no one being dropped, hard on the uphills but the group waits. The return leg it is then the riders responsibility to hang on or to make their own way home. Pretty much every man for themselves.
Similar although we often loose people without knowing if they intentionally turned back or actually got dropped. We do wait most of the time, but quite often no one knows who we are actually waiting for unless they're in sight. We have one or two very strong riders and when they decide to open the taps, everyone else is just strung out hanging on until they decide to back off.
I was dropped a few time until I learnt the group dynamics and know who to watch / when it's likely to get frisky etc.
So, my current cycle ‘club’ of which I’m not a member but active participant has regular rides every Saturday morning.
I think the first issue is right there. You're not a paid-up member of the club but you're leading rides for them?!
Apparently it is BC affiliated
You'd have to check with BC what is and isn't covered by club insurance, I've not been in that scene for a few years now. Lots of people phone up to get BC membership and assume they're covered by "insurance" but don't actually bother to check WHAT is covered. It's different between individuals and groups and I know that you can't do member on member claims.
You / the club might very well come unstuck though if you (a non-member) are leading paid-up club members on rides, even if it is all democratic and fair and "unwritten rules", that tends to go out the window if someone is lying on the deck, their £10000 bike is in pieces and the first point of call is the "ride leader" for choosing that route.
I think the first issue is right there. You’re not a paid-up member of the club but you’re leading rides for them?!
I'd be amazed if paying £25 for a water bottle actually makes any legal difference to the situation...
You / the club might very well come unstuck though if you (a non-member) are leading paid-up club members on rides, even if it is all democratic and fair and “unwritten rules”, that tends to go out the window if someone is lying on the deck, their £10000 bike is in pieces and the first point of call is the “ride leader” for choosing that route.
Re adults, I'm pretty sure it's just tough shit - each adult is responsible for their own choices etc. Don't like the route, don't ride it.
It's if we have a junior on the ride and they end up coming off / getting mown down etc.
Don't know about the legalities of this situation, but all clubs my kids ride with now have "safeguarding leads". Other sports too.
That would be my first port of call for any enquiries about youngsters riding in mixed age groups.
Don’t know about the legalities of this situation, but all clubs my kids ride with now have “safeguarding leads”. Other sports too.
Yes, I've helped out with the wife's Hockey club and their juniors and it was super strict on safe guarding etc - but it was a proper club, board, accounts, registered charity etc.
This cycling club is the least club like club I've come across - just a way for a local cafe to drum up business, everyone meets at the cafe, goes for a ride and a few come back to the cafe (most just ride home). Gets them a few extra espressos in the morning.
I’d be amazed if paying £25 for a water bottle actually makes any legal difference to the situation…
I don't get this bit. On BC you take our your membership and list the club you're part of. You need to do that second part as the BC affiliated club has separate insurance through BC for formal club rides. If the club doesn't have that insurance in place I wouldn't be leading a ride for them
If this is club dues paid directly to the club then it your right that it wont make any difference.
Don’t know about the legalities of this situation, but all clubs my kids ride with now have “safeguarding leads”. Other sports too.
I don't know about the legalities of this situation either, but I just went through my BC "FunMBL" course at the weekend - that allows me to lead up to 8 kids (or adults) on MTB rides. Certain stipulations about distance from an accessible road, etc but that's what the local junior club works to.
I'd not want to be leading in the OP's circumstances where some of those being led are members of a club but they're not.
I don’t get this bit. On BC you take our your membership and list the club you’re part of. You need to do that second part as the BC affiliated club has separate insurance through BC for formal club rides. If the club doesn’t have that insurance in place I wouldn’t be leading a ride for them
Not been a member of BC since I have up racing, which was 15 years ago (I only joined as I needed a license).
You don't need insuracne to meet up with some friends to go road riding, so the fact I meet some friends at a cafe every Saturday doesn't seem (to me) to make any difference?
What does BC club affiliation actually provide?
I’d not want to be leading in the OP’s circumstances where some of those being led are members of a club but they’re not.
That's pretty normal (or certianly was) every club ride I've been on has never been strict about members only - most were, but there were always non members who turned up.
If you aren't a paid up member of the club I'd suggest you stop organising and leading the rides - you (and the club) have no insurance cover. Hate to say it but it has got to that stage with cycling.
As for riders under 18 - the club should have a young riders/junior riders policy - so depending where you are, there might be a policy for youngsters below 16 that means they must be accompanied by a responsible adult - parent or guardian; for 16-18 years old the policy might state they can attend but need to have a responsible adult assigned to them so i could be someone else on the ride rather than their parent/guardian.
For younger riders, if the club doesn't have that policy - I'd be steering very clear of organising anything...and I'd definitely be avoiding any of that if I wasn't a paid-up member of the club either.
As a BC affiliated club, they can access a load of these kinds of policies - it sounds incredibly boring and official but they are there to protect youngsters and adults - the club welfare officer should be able to point you to them.
However, my first statement stands - if you haven't paid and joined the club then STOP organising and leading their rides.
I don’t get this bit. On BC you take our your membership and list the club you’re part of. You need to do that second part as the BC affiliated club has separate insurance through BC for formal club rides. If the club doesn’t have that insurance in place I wouldn’t be leading a ride for them
Yep - when you complete your BC membership, you list the club and BC send your membership to the club secretary who then passes it to you once they've confirmed that you've paid your membership fees to the club.
It's to stop people claiming they're in [team/club] and potentially trying to enter races under that while not having paid their membership to the team or club.
You can be a member of a BC-affiliated club and not be an individual member of BC - plenty of people are if they don't race, they don't see the need to pay BC - and when they're on club rides, they're covered by the insurance the club has with BC. Assuming of course that the club is doing things properly.
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/clubinsurance
Re the original question of Juniors, it shouldn't be any different to things like school activities where the parent / legal guardian signs a declaration or ticks a box saying they're happy for their little darling to go ride with the big boys and girls. That's dependent on standard safety stuff being adhered to though. Published route that you adhere to unless it's to take a (published) short cut, some sort of rule that you're not going to leave a 16yr old dropped on a hill furthest from home and so on.
the club should have a young riders/junior riders policy
The 'club' has no policies, no committee and is just a collective on WA/FB organising rides amongst themselves....
As a BC affiliated club, they can access a load of these kinds of policies –
I'm sure, but I don't think the cafe owner is in the slightest interested.
However, my first statement stands – if you haven’t paid and joined the club then STOP organising and leading their rides.
I'm happy to continue with adult only groups - I'd be unhappy with any juniors in the group.
Re the original question of Juniors, it shouldn’t be any different to things like school activities where the parent / legal guardian signs a declaration or ticks a box saying they’re happy for their little darling to go ride with the big boys and girls.
The difference with school groups etc is you know who all the kids are and teachers check up on these things. Every cycling club I've ever ridden with just has a meeting place where people turn up, sort themselves out into groups and off they go. No one knows everybody, no one checks membership, ages, forms etc. The only rule I've seen enforced is a 'Helmet' rule at the local tri-club, the local cycling club didn't mind helmetless riders.
At a basic level, there is a duty of care for under 18's. That likely means a clear club policy around this, including things like where/what rides an under 18 can ride and if there needs to be an adult detailed off to look after them the day they drop off the back.
At very least there will be full permission and contact forms and a way of accessing that information if something happens on a ride.
As a volunteer leader, signed up and paid or not, you have responsibilities should something happen. You should have some (pretty basic admittedly) training on this and know your responsibilities - and then agree to take them on.
In you current situation you should NOT have any under 18's or other vulnerable people in your group.
In you current situation you should NOT have any under 18’s or other vulnerable people in your group.
I fully agree, but given I don't have any ability to stop anyone (club or otherwise) following us on a bike ride on public roads - it's a bit of a hard one to enforce.
From memory as I've been through this in the past setting up clubs.
As a group of friends you are fine. However, if you advertise yourself as a club and take on new people I'd suggest you get insurance. Whether you like it or not you sound like a club and are advertising rides so have responsibilities. Everyone is mature and grown up about this until they have an accident and need to reclaim costs somewhere.
Affiliation to BC is relatively straight forward. I still think that people on the club rides should have their own insurance, particularly if organising things. We insist that club members are also in BC. Bronze membership is cheap.
People under 18 are a pain. Often fine as people but create paperwork. BC produce guidance. You'll definitely have a duty of care, need to ensure you have safeguarding in place and parental permission.
In the last two small clubs I've been involved in we've said no to any under 18's because of the hassle.
If you contact your regional BC Team they will be able to help.
Drop rides and speed is fine. As long as everyone knows the score and has the means to get home. We used to set off the drop group first so in the event of any real problem stragglers would be picked up by the laughing group. I don't like to drop people though, prefer to half wheel 😉
You can put "the rules" on a website or Facebook page so they are clear to all. My club gives a very quick briefing before we leave. Follow Jon for the fast group, Dave for the slow group. We're going to X via Y and back through Z. Anyone new or unsure make yourself known, ideally to someone in the club jersey.
People under 18 are a pain. Often fine as people but create paperwork. BC produce guidance. You’ll definitely have a duty of care, need to ensure you have safeguarding in place and parental permission.
So true, we had this when kids started turning up at our club runs, nice kids etc but the parents basically dumped them off.
It’s all fine and dandy when they’re holding a wheel, but when they crash or have an irreparable mechanical miles from anywhere it is considerably less of a laugh and issues about safeguarding and welfare come to the fore.
You don’t need insuracne to meet up with some friends to go road riding, so the fact I meet some friends at a cafe every Saturday doesn’t seem (to me) to make any difference?
What does BC club affiliation actually provide?
You need to work out if this is a club ride or a group of friends going riding. If the former, make sure there is group riding insurance through BC. If the latter, why are you "leading"? A group of mates doesn't need a ride leader.
The affiliation provides an extra layer of insurance cover for official club rides going out as a group.
Seriously, check the clubs BC status, and see what BCs requirements are. It's the BC club membership that should indemnify you if a rider - or member of the public - ends up needing 24/7 care after an accident and decides to sue someone/anyone/everyone to cover that cost.
Our club academy is run by BC qualified coaches, who are all DBS checked, and they lead any academy road rides at the approved adult/junior ratios I presume.
If we have under 18s on a regular club/social ride, they have to have a responsible adult with them. Doesn't have to be a parent, but does have to accept the responsibility of looking after the young rider and getting them home if they have to stop for whatever reason, and someone else has yo stay with them for safeguarding.
We formalised the policy when we had a 17 year old national level rider whose mum and dad couldn't keep up with him. He's now in his second season racing with a continental development squad.
Seems to work OK. We had one near miss when a 16 year old lad decided a short sleeve jersey and shorts were all he needed one sunny spring morning when the weather deteriorated and we got him to a cafe as he started to go hypothermic - responsible adult and another rider stayed with him at the cafe till dad picked him up.
Now have a 17 year old out on the Monday gravel bike rides, chaperoned by a friend of her parents. She indicated that she rode "a bit". Further enquiries revealed she commuted 8 miles each way to college every day on the tracks we ride on the Monday routes. She is shit hot fast and is eyeing up next years CX season 🤣
I'm in the same, very large and well organised club as Dick Barton ^^^ up there. I used to lead many of the off-road rides and regularly came across this problem. Parents would rock up to the meeting point and drop off their kids. Each time this happened, I made it very clear that there was no way the kids were coming with us unless the parent tagged along as well.
Not such a problem nowadays as the club has a strong junior section, but I'm still clear on the fact that I'm not interested in a group ride with kids, (under 18's) unless they have a parent alongside them.
If the latter, why are you “leading”? A group of mates doesn’t need a ride leader.
Something I have been mulling over. I would say I'm not really leading, I just suggested a route and people said "that looks good". During the ride I have zero authority and will get dropped if I'm not quick enough!
However, as mentioned above if something bad did happen am I legally a 'leader'? Is there even such a thing? No idea, hence I'm askng.
NB This is the weirdest club I've ever not been a member of, but a great bunch of riders and I love riding with them all.
I’m in the same, very large and well organised club as Dick Barton ^^^ up there. I used to lead many of the off-road rides and regularly came across this problem. Parents would rock up to the meeting point and drop off their kids. Each time this happened, I made it very clear that there was no way the kids were coming with us unless the parent tagged along as well.
My concern is more a youngish person just tags along and I don't know them from Adam - they might be under 18 - wouldn't have a clue (anyone under 30 just looks very young to me). We do have random people turn up occaisonally - that's how I joined the group - just turned up one Saturday, tagged on a ride and slowly got to know people over the next few months.
Worth backing off for a few weeks. See what happens when you don't call the ride and don't call directions on the ride.
Worth backing off for a few weeks. See what happens when you don’t call the ride and don’t call directions on the ride.
They'd just do dull routes they've done before as no one seems very good at route plotting. My routes get lots of compliments as I pick all the best riding roads and create new loops etc.
I might spend 30-60 mins plotting a route, checking wind / weather, choosing good roads we've not covered for a while, trying to get a nice loop etc.
My routes get lots of compliments as I pick all the best riding roads and create new loops etc.
I might spend 30-60 mins plotting a route, checking wind / weather, choosing good roads we’ve not covered for a while, trying to get a nice loop etc.
I've never seen someone looking more like a ride leader than you do right now 😉
I’ve never seen someone looking more like a ride leader than you do right now
The other week all three groups did routes I'd created. Route master rather than ride leader would be a more apt title....
oh aye, it's all coming out now. It's your cafe too, isnt it?!
You say they have BC affiliation but the group is informal - which is it? An informal group doesn't need affiliation but if they have it then they aren't formal as they should have a constitution or similar...
If it is truly informal, then it isn't a formal ride, just mates getting together - you still have the ability to say no to any rider who pitches up uninvited.
I'm still suggesting you stop leading the rides...doesn't matter how you dress it up, if something were to happen, you'd be on the shoogly peg for a lot of questions...so make sure you are covered.
The dull rides will stop once everyone is bored of them and others step up.
^DickBarton is correct.
It sounds like some folk are using a few statements and language to duck what needs to be organised some. Such is life these days.
You say they have BC affiliation but the group is informal – which is it?
The answer is both.
I’m still suggesting you stop leading the rides…doesn’t matter how you dress it up, if something were to happen, you’d be on the shoogly peg for a lot of questions…so make sure you are covered.
If something bad happens regardless everyone will be up for a load of awkward questions regardless. As for being covered, does the club being BC affiliated make any real difference? It won't absolve anyone of any legal duty of care, nor if you ride wrecklessly eg jump a red light - you're still at fault.
Do people just assume that because the club paid for BC membership they're somehow covered / absolved of all responsibility? That seems equally naive to me?
Or does individual BC membership provide specific legal cover to ride leaders?
NB genuinue questions, no one has actually answered yet...
It sounds like some folk are using a few statements and language to duck what needs to be organised some.
The cafe owner just likes cycling - he created the 'club' years back but it has since grown to be quite large and he has very little to do with it. Probably 150 riders turn up in summer, 5 groups of 10, maybe 20-30 in winter. All very adhoc, probably mostly non members and all organised via WA group which the cafe owner rarely posts in. So the organisation is just a collective of adults agreeing rides amongst themselves loosely attached to a 'club' in the loosest sense of the word (no committee, no rules, etc).
As I said before it is the weirdest club I've not actually become a member of.
I might spend 30-60 mins plotting a route, checking wind / weather, choosing good roads we’ve not covered for a while, trying to get a nice loop etc.
Some people love maps and route planning. others loathe it and/or are so incompetent at it they join a club or informal group just to avoid it.
Especially if you publish it before hand, its up to them if they come on the suggested route. IMO not your fault if they crash, break their bike or get dropped and can't navigate their way back home.
Kids I admit are more of a problem, as their responsible adult has to make the above descision for them, but wont be present in an actual situation.
Do people just assume that because the club paid for BC membership they’re somehow covered / absolved of all responsibility? That seems equally naive to me?
No one has said that. But BC cover pays for your liability
Or does individual BC membership provide specific legal cover to ride leaders?
That's what you need to be checking, but probably not.
But BC cover pays for your liability
Mine or the clubs?
IMO not your fault if they crash, break their bike or get dropped and can’t navigate their way back home.
The choice of route can have a part to play. Sending a dozen riders in a group down a road that turns out to be less suitable than anticipated (steeper, narrower, more twisty, worse condition, poor surface, etc) could see an interesting pile up (and possibly not even the fault of the person that ends up worst off). Footflaps might not be getting immediately thrown in jail, but could end up all the questions regarding the choice of ride being fired in his direction.
You'll always get some riders trying daft things...what the insurance covers is if somehow has an accident and needs considerable assistance/support for rehab (or rest of life care) and you haven't caused the accident, then if they sue to get financial support, the insurance covers it.
Accidents do happen, we do appear to be going down the US way of blaming everyone else these days but in some cases it is genuine.
If that does happen - are you happy to be sued personally?
Obviously a scare story but that is what is means... hopefully it'll never happen, but look at Strava and the riders who was going for the Kom across a busy road - he knew the road was there and busy but went for it and got killed - despite all the warning signs, his family sued Strava and won...even though it was obvious what could happen.
footflaps
Full Member
Mine or the clubs?
The clubs. If those involved are signed for said club via their BC membership (and all the right protocols are in place i'd imagine)
steeper, narrower, more twisty,
Ah, those are my favourite roads - I like the really quiet / narrow back lanes which continually change direction with lots of ups and downs.
The clubs.
I don't actually GAS about the club's liability - that's the cafe owner's problem.
Difficult one, but at the very least, I'd be:
1. Preventing unaccompanied under 16s joining the ride; and
2. For 16s to 18s ensuring that they were carrying emergency contact information of a responsible over 18 who was willing and able to make decisions on their behalf if required - medical / mechanical etc.
I'd not be collecting the emergency contact info though - they'd need to have it with them in a place that was accessible if required e.g. on a sticker on their bike / helmet / water bottle.
footflaps
Full Member
I don’t actually GAS about the club’s liability – that’s the cafe owner’s problem.
You do though, you still haven't figured out if this is a club ride or a group of friends. Is everyone on the ride signed up to the club via BC? If not, they aren't on the deal
I'm a club ride leader. I was trained to take on this role and am indemnified under the club's affiliation to BC. When I am leading a club ride, I plan the route and take responsibility for group management during the ride. With under 16s,they need to be accompanied by a parent or a responsible adult. 16 to 18 year old need written permission, but don't need to be accompanied. The club has a formally nominated safeguarding officer. As soon as an activity moves from being an informal group riding together to a formal club event, the requirements change significantly.
However, if we did have under 18s on the ride, how do clubs manage this – I assume some sort of duty of care applies?
It does. Juniors ride in groups with a BC qualified coach in our club. Or with a parent. I'm a ride leader and regularly assumed responsibility for Juniors on club rides. I'm BC qualified, have the legal cover and am DB checked. I hope you have your safeguarding policies in place. And you don't drop them!
As for asking the club committee, there is none, the club is just part of a local cafe whose owner rarely rides a bike and is never there as far as I can tell. Apparently it is BC affiliated but not many people are members as all you get for £25 is a water bottle and most people have plenty of those.
You get more than a water bottle. You get infrastructure and advice around running a cycling club and the risks (both physical and legal) in leading groups which may or may not include children on the roads.
At a basic level, there is a duty of care for under 18’s.
I'd suggest there's a legal duty of care for anyone on your rides. It may be higher if they are under 18, but if I turn up on one of your rides overestimating my abilities and you drop me in the middle of nowhere with no tools and insufficient clothes to get home you are morally and legally in a mess and no amount of words around "the WA group says - keep up or get dropped" is going to absolve you of that. Similarly, if a youngster was struggling and a creepy older cyclist offers to escort them back home you might immediately see why safeguarding policies exist. But that risk is not immediately lost when its a 19 yr old girl, or indeed possibly even a 40 year old.
At very least there will be full permission and contact forms and a way of accessing that information if something happens on a ride.
But worth thinking about what happens with a fully grown adult who gets badly hurt or taken ill on a ride. Having emergency contact details for all your riders and knowing of any underlying medical conditions would be prudent.
IMO not your fault if they crash, break their bike or get dropped and can’t navigate their way back home.
Its not your opinion that will matter though. It will be the court's! Who decided on this route? Who set the pace down this steep hill with the blind bend - and the mud on the road? Who encouraged faster riding by saying if you can't keep up you are left to cope on your own?
I don’t actually GAS about the club’s liability – that’s the cafe owner’s problem.
Perhaps. Unless of course there isn't really a club anymore because nobody bothers joining, and so the lawyers come looking for someone else to pursue. "You say the cafe owner never comes on these rides and wasn't directly involved in planning them. Mmm... tell me about this footflaps guy who seems to be leading the planning in this whats app group".
Do you recall the paddleboarders in Wales a few months ago?