[Closed] chinese titanium versus usa titanium

I thought US ti was Russian mined/sourced?

frame production as in produced / fabricated - lynskey in chattanooga , van nicholas in china somewhere

tubing production - thats a different thing ,

It's inevitably seen as a bit low rent though.

It's inevitably seen as a bit low rent though.

...or simply consistent with On-One's value/no-nonsense proposition...

Edit: Read that again and it sounds like I'm suggesting that On-One is low-rent. Not my intention. To me they're good value/no-nonsense.

Oh, but the US built ones have much nicer welding...

I seen a few Chinese built Ti frames; the welding was perfectly decent, pretty good, really, and the bikes seemed bloody nice. Cost a third or less than a simliar US model.

Bit like that Lancer EVO V Yerpean sportscar thing, in't it? The Lancer may kick arse, but does not in any way have the prestige of the Yerpean model.

I'd buy a frame based on it's design and suitability, not how pretty the welds were. It's just a bike frame.

Or maybe it's like watches; Seiko are just as good, if not better, than many of their Swiss counterparts, but never have the same kudos.

Cheap Casio for me. Does the job perfectly...

any ideas of price for a van nich built 456

To me they're good value/no-nonsense.

Why should a chinese weld be any worse than an american weld. As long as the tubes are the same spec it shouldnt be any different apart from the price. My Scandal has perfect welds and it was made in Taiwan

Prices?

Well, a VN Mam Tor frame is €1149. That's just over £1,000 at the moment. I can't see than VN would want to undercut that by much, if at all. Does that make it the same price as a Lynskey one?

Just to be clear, I don't personally view chinese made stuff as worse than US made - I am merely commenting on the general perception.

Part of the 456's appeal was what great value it is for a US made frame, no?

It's the psychology of branding etc that I'm talking about. I dunno if anyone saw that BBC2 programme about medicine. The placebo effect of branded products WORKS!

How much cheaper would a Van Nichols 29er frame be? I would be intrested in one if they were significantly cheaper. I am not fussed who put the tubes together as long as they stay together. But I do care if I need to sell my car to buy a frame.

Maybe these one won't break ROFLCOPTERS

You can already buy a [url= http://vannicholas.com/WbmBikeHome.aspx?EncIdName=TcdruLLSvENybNBnyJkS9GiTFehFTCsxjcaleGyFr%2fOrvBE%2fiekA4NukpB4MAgftAXYY5AdBZ0O%2flwPUlyCmtnYTgOosicE211odPXlE4nU%3d ]VN 29er[/url] - €1,049

im simply saying , its an opportunity for anyone to come down and to have ride on both, personally id be quite surprised if there was any difference in ride quality

frame geometry is of course a different thing , but since these 2 should be same frame geometry and exact same build , then only difference will by manufacturer , so it could be an interesting ride for anyone involved in the us vs chinese made debates

van nicholas pricing- if the dollar holds its ground , and moves up to 1.60 ish were going to be shooting for an introductory price of 650 ish , though it could well end up at 699 as were down in the 1.53s now , might even do a first delivery preorder price of 599

Its after a few months riding when you see a crack on your 'Ti lasting for a lifetime' frame which is the factor twixt cheap tat and proper Ti, IME and Im certainly not alone in that experience as the number of Ti frames between my riding friends has diminished substanially.

scruff - Member

Its after [b]a few months[/b] riding when you see a crack on your 'Ti lasting for a lifetime' frame which is the factor twixt cheap tat and proper Ti, IME and Im certainly not alone in that experience as the number of Ti frames between my riding friends has diminished substanially.

How many months would that be? Just so I know when to start looking at my cheap, tatty frame.

***** me - £699 for a VN-made Ti456? Where were you 3 years ago when I wanted a Ti frame at that price? Or last year when I spunked a grand on a Cotic?
Get your act together!! 😉

Surely it is simplistic to conflate a bike's 'nationality' with its quality. There are myriad other factors involved which influence how good a frame will be.

might even do a first delivery preorder price of 599

There's your value/no-nonsense proposition 😀

Where can you buy the cheep Chinese frames from?

China

Got no issues at all with my welded in god knows where Tinbred... Hasnt ever occurred to me to wonder where it was made, assume China?

If they are a polished finish like mine (has been done) I rekon you would sell even more.

I'm not saying there isn't some junk out there, but I think it's quite inaccurate, bordering on racist, to assume that inexpensive Chinese frames are poor quality.

It always depends on the manufacturing experience and procedures used by the factory/workshop that's making them. If some products are expensive, it's usually because the work is done using more meticulous and hence more labour intensive procedures.

But skilled Chinese manufacturers are inexpensive, so the factory can afford to be meticulous AND sell the frame inexpensively. My mate's been riding a fun, zingy VN Zion for 2 years without any problems. And it's a nicely detailed frame too.

The problem with ti from places like russia and china is that the material is often reclaimed, so it contains trace impurity elements, eg. tungsten from welding, which effects the weldability of the tubing, and ultimately the quality of the frame.
Essentially, you get what you pay for.

So is this going to be a blind test of the frames with any identifying parts (custom drop-outs/logos etc) masked to help minimise the placebo effect?

So are they going to be the same as in tube profiles,butting etc or
just the same geometry/sizes?

If the warranty is the same same the Lynskey Ti frame, I reckon you will sell out of those very quickly, as £599 is a killer price.

When would they arrive if you did order them?

Dave - I'm surprised you're going via Van Nic when you could deal direct with XACD or Hi-light? Not sure which one Van Nic uses but XACD are happy to sell to end users, I've just ordered up my 2nd frame from them - you can follow progress on my nearly finished blog over at [url= http://www.spanner.org.uk ]Spanner - made up brand[/url]

Maybe its the old chestnut of getting what you pay for isnt? Im not saying you wont get a decent frame from China or the like but perhaps what you buy is piece of mind when you spend a little more & buy from a reputable manufacturer? I think doof & Buzz make good points for the pro's for buying from a more "reputable" make & I like the sound of daves plan. Personally, I dont look down my nose at someone who rides a different make Ti frame to mine - bike snobbery is for w@nkers!

ps Ive seen plenty of VN bikes around - both MTB & darkside so they cant be too shoddy 😉

Van Nichols has a decent reputation to protect (as does On-One/Planet-X) so I would be happier with Van Nicols QC that I would with XACD, as I am assuming that Van Nicols will look at the frames welded by them and check they are still within tolerance.

A Ford focus does the job just as well as an Aston Martin. One is assembled by machines in a factory the other is lovingly assembled by craftsmen with many years expertise in their craft.

Also, higher price Ti will have less impurities

[i]van nicholas pricing- if the dollar holds its ground , and moves up to 1.60 ish were going to be shooting for an introductory price of 650 ish , though it could well end up at 699 as were down in the 1.53s now , might even do a first delivery preorder price of 599[/i]

Noted 🙂 My summer season is back with you now.

Another potential dumb question. Lynskey will buy their raw materials on the open market, jonjones13 whos to say that they always buy the same impurity/mix etc in every batch? How do you check? employ a metalurgist? How can you say for sure that every batch is of the exact highest/higher standard. Again- Im bloody guessing here as Im neither an engineer, work in the industry/manufacturing or intelligent 😉

🙄

are there any differences in the butting or are both plaingauge?

Titainium is rubbish. I've broken three Hummers, frame for life my assos.

"A Ford focus does the job just as well as an Aston Martin. One is assembled by machines in a factory the other is lovingly assembled by craftsmen with many years expertise in their craft."

Isn't it the Focus that's got a good reputation for reliability, and the Aston is a joke in terms of breaking down?

The problem with ti from places like russia and china is that the material is often reclaimed, so it contains trace impurity elements, eg. tungsten from welding, which effects the weldability of the tubing, and ultimately the quality of the frame.
Essentially, you get what you pay for.

That sounds exactly like a bit of propaganda for the US Ti industry...

Do you really believe Merlin, Litespeed etc are using the finest Ti known to man? Are they bollocks. They're using the same stuff that all the other Ti frame builders are. Top grade 'pure' Ti would be far too spensive for any manufacturer to use, and 'reclaimed' Ti is more than adequate for bicycle frame building.

Yankee Ti frames are more spensive chiefly because labour is more spensive in the States, than in the Far East. Any claims that non-US materials workmanship is any better than anywhere else, is complete bunkum. So, Merlin etc weld their frames up prettier than other frames. Costs more, serves no purpose other than aesthetics. Just gives the frame more kudos, and 'justifies' the much higher price.

Nowt wrong with buying a US made Ti frame; but it's the same as buying a Rolex over a decent Seiko. The only reason you would, is to be able to have the Rolex name on yer wrist.

rudeboy, you're just jealous cos i wouldn't let you have a go on the merlin. 🙂

Those ****in Chinese...its the Greek I blame
[img] [/img]

Here here Rudeboy.

Having just come back from the States and driving one of their "US" built cars, I'd take the Far East version any day. Isn't bike manufacture the only place where we think US built is actually better than Far East?

Anyone who says its "borderline racist" to suggest that Chinese manufactured goods are of lower quality should explain why there have been a number of high profile recalls over the years.

I recently read a very interesting book review on this http://www.economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13642306 Basically a guy who worked as a Chinese agent for people starting factories there has written about his experience and, in a nutshell, Chinese factories win contacts by knocking something out that is great quality for the price but doesn't make any profit and then they gradually cut quality in order to make the contract profitable.

Come on then, I've found 599 down the back of the sofa, where's the pre-order offer. PLEASEEEE

Also good to see that On-One's guerilla marketing is as effective as ever 😉

18" here

I've decided to win the Lynskey competition in the magazine this issue, so none of this applies to me.

[i]Anyone who says its "borderline racist" to suggest that Chinese manufactured goods are of lower quality explain why there have been a number of high profile recalls over the year[/i]

That was me.

As I opened... I'm not arguing that there isn't junk out there, but it's not exclusively made by yellow-skinned people for the far east. Product quality relates to the management of the factory where it's made - whether it's British, American or Chinese. [oh dear, I'm turning into RideBoy]

Most businesses start out with loss-leaders and then to turn them into cash-cows.

I thought xacd made van nics (and previously airbornes frames?)

Im sure I saw a thread to this affect a couple of years ago where Porter from xacd claimed this to be the case?

Surely approaching xacd or hi light direct would be cheaper???

but either way £599 is still cheap as chips if that is polished.

its only about £150 different if you go to xacd direct, and a bit of a grey area about importation /warranty too.

in a nutshell, Chinese factories win contacts by knocking something out that is great quality for the price but doesn't make any profit and then they gradually cut quality in order to make the contract profitable.

and you think its just Chinese factories that do this? when I used to work in manufacturing we had the monthly game of what have the removed to increase profits, and this was 7 years ago and this was with bits made from all around the world including the US.

some of the guys (foreign) ride the locally produced Hi Light Bikes.
Frames come in at a descent price, and they are very nice.

Website is here http://www.ti-bicycle.com/gywm/gywm-e.htm

Let me know if your interested, I can help you out as they are manufactured on my doorstep (Beijing)

suntingwang - those mtb frames look very XC-specific though? What do they sell for? Problem is (I know Druidh went down this route)- its gold having someone like Planet etc there for customer service and backup etc.

Tim - I think Airbornes were made by Hi-Light, Hi-Light still do a 'softtail' rear end with the section of plate on the seat stays like Airbourne used to offer.

Setavento used XACD for sure, but the Van Nic's look more like they use Hi-Light (XACD road frames tend to use bendy seat stays for one)... Sabbath look like they use XACD, for the road frames at least.

Agreed though if Planet X can knock 'em out for under £700 they should be on to a winner. The frame I recently ordered direct was about £500 all in, about £100 more than last year due to the $/£ business!

sure, you can't beat having a local person there for you when something goes wrong.
I'll call them tomorrow and let you know (it's 9.18pm here now)

yeah, I heard that they made Airbornes as well....

I keep meaning to take a trip around the factory... see what I can do

Dave - If you don’t think there would be any real difference in overall quality than say the aesthetic look of the welds for a “first delivery pre-order price of 599” I would bite you arm off for one. I’d VERY happily get one! Surely the biggest factors in this cheapness is the exchange rate labour costs.

I’m signed up to all the email newsletters and have been waiting for a 29er Scandal sized 21in for ages now. And then you go and say Ti 29er fram for £599.

Some of the more respected brands building Ti frames seem to have had a few problems in the past couple of years - doesn't fill you with a huge amount of confidence:

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12538098&highlight=cardboard

I was asked, some time ago, what the welding on the Hi-Light frames was like and took/posted a few pics. I'm no metallurgist, and my boyfriend isn't an aero engineer, but I can't see anything wrong with these?*

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]
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* although the focus on that last pic is pants

[IMG] [/IMG]

Dekerf-style (nice)
[img] [/img]

to be fair, druid, while those look reasonable, in comparison those on my merlin look like the saliva of titanium angels licked on with their little tongues. i'll take a pic this evening if you like.

Harry_the_Spider, that's Japanese not Chinese.

Whatever.

Harry_the_Spider - Member

Whatever.

that's the spirit! 😆

Rudeboy:

I sat through a two day conference at the national welding institute where the topic of russian ti came up.
It's not proaganda, it's fact.
Like all materials, all ti is not created equally.

all tis are equal but some are more equal than others. fitting, when talking of russian ti.

If the Chinese are as honest about the quality of their Ti as they are about the quality of their steel in some of the injection moulds I've seen, I'd be very careful. As someone said earlier in the thread - you'd need a metallurgist to check it. I emphasise 'some'. Not all use inferior materials, obviously. There have also been cases of customers shipping out the correct spec german or swedish steel and the mould coming back made of something else. Mind you, as long as the drawings are agreed beforehand, the quality of the workmanship should be OK and we're not talking aerospace standards here anyway, so it won't matter if the Ti is the best available.

i'd like a review of the comparison, but i'm a bike snob and have a Lynskey built 456.
i'd never consider a chinese factory built Ti frame.
i like the Lynskey ethos. and the warranty.
will the chinese frame be lifetime warrantied ?
oh - i break Hummers too 🙁

Just remembered something a buddy of mine who runs a bike shop in San Francisco told me about Litespeed: He said their manufacturing skills couldnt be all that bad as they were making Ti components for NASA. Now some may say "NASA huh?.." but Id rather have their endorsement than ooohh say those blokes in a shed who knocked up the Trabant..

Of course that may well just be BS!

good skills by dave@planetx he dropped the crumbs and let everyone jump in 😉 must have been getting some tips from Brant on marketing

RepacK - Member

Just remembered something a buddy of mine who runs a bike shop in San Francisco told me about Litespeed: He said their manufacturing skills couldnt be all that bad as they were making Ti components for NASA. Now some may say "NASA huh?.." but Id rather have their endorsement than ooohh say those blokes in a shed who knocked up the Trabant..

Hardly a crumb. More like a full page advert with prices.

I'd happily drop £600 for a Ti frame.

If it breaks it can always be fixed - no worries about stuffing up the paintwork 🙂

Top grade 'pure' Ti would be far too spensive for any manufacturer to use,

It would also make a crap frame. Alloyed Ti (with Vanadium and Aluminium) is at least twice as strong as Commercially Pure Ti

Does anyone know who the Russian manufacturer that Burls use to make their titanium frames is?

This thread has given me an urge to relentlessly plug the next Hit the North, regarless of the supposed rules.

😉
February 2010 for a sprinter
July 17th 2010 for a full-fat 8 hour MTB/CX crossover enduro with rock band, mariachi artiste hiding in the woods and a licenced bar.

Anyone up for that? Yeh? YEH?

Rudeboy:

I sat through a two day conference at the national welding institute

What an incredibly exciting life you lead... 😯

I went fishing & look what I caught - a druid! 😉 😈

Leave druidh alone.

His Onion bike is quite nice!

"good skills by dave@planetx he dropped the crumbs and let everyone jump in must have been getting some tips from Brant on marketing"

- Who do you think brant learnt it all from in the first place ?

Anyhow , back to OP - anyone is welcome at bikeradar live to come have a go , or just have a beer or if it not tipping down a bit of bar b q and we could be dishing out a few e-coli burgers .