[Closed] Chinese carbon frames....

I would still love a carbon or ti frame but dont have the cash, so I will have to wait...

A carbon frame can easily be cheaper than new Hope brakes, so you DO have the money! 🙂

Four pages of discussion and I am still no wiser...

I'll sum it up for you.

Carbon frames are not all equal, unfortunately there is no information given out about manufacturing techniques, carbon used, cure times etc.

This means you don't know what your buying whether it is cheap or expensive, you pay your money and take your chances. If you buy from a known brand you get a warranty and some fancy paint along with a [i]feeling[/i] that it may last longer.

No one can prove that expensive branded is better until someone is willing to buy a range of cheap and expensive frames and independently test them to destruction.

So, to sum up my summary.
Cheap is cheap because it has no warranty and it may colapse beneath you, your not really sure if it will or wont.
Expensive is expensive because it has a warranty, may collapse beneath you but at least you don't think it will.

HTH 🙂

Those are the famous Chinarellos, some places will even do them with all the Pinarello decals, they look identical to the 'real thing'

Folk are prepared to buy cheap steel or ally frames from China, why is plastic so different?

Maybe some of you would like to come and see how a frame is made it seems that might be the easier option

I would. I like seeing the contrasts between how different companies and industries work with composites. Aerospace, renewable energy and F1 - all very different approaches. I have to say a certain F1 team probably surprised me the most due to little details.

That's not quite true. Specialized make bikes in the Merida factory (to Spesh spec), but they are a wholly separate company

They own 19% of them (according to Wiki, for some reason I had a figure of 40% in my head).

According to Wiki they also own Boardman?

Just cosmetic, or is there more similarity than that? Not that light according to the spec (my £400 PF frame is 1/2lb lighter), but then I'm aware that's the case for carbon offerings from some of the really high end brands (eg Colnago).

Wouldn't like to say, not seen one in the flesh. Dogmas aren't that light, and are made in the far East, so it's possible there are more similarities, but cosmetically they really are similar.

They own 19% of them (according to Wiki, for some reason I had a figure of 40% in my head).

Either way, it's a minority stake, not really the same as being owned by them!

A carbon frame can easily be cheaper than new Hope brakes, so you DO have the money

+1

No one can prove that expensive branded is better until someone is willing to buy a range of cheap and expensive frames and independently test them to destruction.

And that would only show on those specific examples anyway. You may have a Spesh with a 'flaw' that breaks, whilst a $200 Chinese one is far superior, or vice versa.

Basically... there's plenty of first hand evidence to suggest the frames are absolutely fine, and plenty of internet scaremongerers who (possibly in a valid fashion) decree they are unsafe for use and wildly inferior to the more expensive 'brands'. There are very few first hand horror stories (of the MTBs at least, I've seen a couple of broken road forks), in fact I've not found a single one, and I did quite a bit of digging prior to buying one.

Four pages of discussion and I am still no wiser...

njee20,

'A carbon frame can easily be cheaper than new Hope brakes, so you DO have the money'

I have a couple of hundred quid - I would keep my currant Merida alloy frame just in case, but I do have a very limited income so my question to you is - is it worth spending the money on the frame, or should I just buy some brakes that is second on my wish list, behind a stiffer frame??

Cheers!

I would. I like seeing the contrasts between how different companies and industries work with composites. Aerospace, renewable energy and F1 - all very different approaches. I have to say a certain F1 team probably surprised me the most due to little details.

Which F1 one team was that?

 

I'm probably entering the rhelms of generalisation but us English on one hand like a bargain when its day to day stuff but on other hand for our 'downtime'/hobbies we like to feel assured that we are buying 'the best' (i.e. paying the money).

andyl seems to be the only person talking sense here.

There's a hell of a lot of unknowns in the whole thing and nobody here knows the intricate details of how the different frames are laid up. Two superficially identical frames could be very different indeed when you cut them open. Bottom line though - anyone who thinks a £200 frame is the same as a £1000 frame is clearly mental. They probably also shop at Aldi and drive a Kia because they're just as good as Waitrose & BMW. Everyone knows that. It's obvious.

Oh, to the person who claimed the factory price of a certain US frame was $50 - that's utter BS. That wouldn't even cover the materials & labour, let alone the cost of actually running the factory.

There's a lot of conspiricy theorists here, convinced that everything costs tuppence to make and the big evil corporations just make up the prices randomly 🙄

Sundayjumper you've just confirmed what I wrote above... ^^^

Cost to product at factory can be TOTALLY different to landed cost.

Bottom line though - anyone who thinks a £200 frame is the same as a £1000 frame is clearly mental.

andyl seems to be the only person talking sense here.

nobody here knows the intricate details of how the different frames are laid up

some of them do, like I offered njee he wants to come and see how he's more than welcome

Total finger in the air (but from a specific frame/shop that told me one bit)

£1700 retail (but take off 20% VAT from that)
£999 cost to retailer.

Next bit
Say £300 to the importer's cut
Import duty off that as well? Say 5%?
Remove the shipping and admin costs (guess another 5%)

Remove the cost of the shock to the manufacturer- say he gets a bulk/special deal at £100 for each RP23

Then take off the manufacturers margin which I imagine would be generous (or why bother?)

So its quite small?

Bottom line though - anyone who thinks a £200 frame is the same as a £1000 frame is clearly mental. They probably also shop at Aldi and drive a Kia because they're just as good as Waitrose & BMW. Everyone knows that. It's obvious.

Bottom line though - they do just the same job (unless you're the sort o sucker who cares about perceived quality/image/status etc.)

Crikey ,,, lots of opinions !!!

Is there any reason for the Carbon frame to feature so high on the shopping list ? Speaking from my personal (read please don't slaughter) I found carbon frames to offer very little benefit, in fact in a lot of situations I found it worse.

I owned both a S-works stump jumper, followed by a Carbon Marathon frame built up with basically the same components. Never really felt comfortable on either. In my language I found both very "twangy", and the vibrations a killer on longer rides. After selling on both I found a decent cheap M5 stump jumper frame here on STW and figured I'd use it as a cheap build up.

Never been happier ! Am happy to chuck it in the back of the car without fear someone else's peddle is going to punch a hole in it, it doesn't go all fluffy where my heels rub against it, the laquer doesn't flex from rock strikes and chip off, I can paint it when I get bored ... to name but a few.

As an indication I have an old K2 Zed team frame in the loft, the rear stay is almost folded from where it hit a tree. Rode it for another 18 months without losing my life. Would hate to think what a carbon frame would have done in the same circumstances (of chinese or any other origin).

Bottom line though - anyone who thinks a £200 frame is the same as a £1000 frame is clearly mental.

I'm very convinced that my £400 PF frame is exactly the same (apart from decals) as the ones Litespeed used to sell for £1000+. PF also come with warranty and have a good reputation - a bit more expensive than ones on ebay, but you do have a bit more confidence in the quality, and a real entity to go back to if you have problems. Could say the same about the good value ones Ribble etc. sell - really don't see the advantage of spending 2-3 times as much for something almost identical from a major brand.

As an indication I have an old K2 Zed team frame in the loft, the rear stay is almost folded from where it hit a tree. Rode it for another 18 months without losing my life. Would hate to think what a carbon frame would have done in the same circumstances (of chinese or any other origin).

Cheap is cheap because it has no warranty and it may colapse beneath you, your not really sure if it will or wont.
Expensive is expensive because it has a warranty, may collapse beneath you but at least you don't think

Spot on me thinks

Well, maybe anything sold in the UK has sales of goods act that a UK consumer has to fall back on?

Also, do bike/frame importers here have an agreement on quality that if any break there is a contribution from the supplier or the frame cost is creditted to the importers account?

Spot on me thinks

Thanks. 🙂

I'd still like someone to convince me either way as I am looking for a new road frame.

Bottom line though - anyone who thinks a £200 frame is the same as a £1000 frame is clearly mental.

My take on it is that sometimes it might actually be the same. Sometimes it might look the same but not actually be the same. Sometimes that difference might actually matter, sometimes it might not. You just don't know.

You have more faith in the big brand, but as said you don't know it's going to last until you ride it.

I don't think that's just blind faith though. It's not in Specialized's (for example) interest to be putting their name on the crap frames rather than the good ones, which leads me to think that they'll be at the safer end of the sepctrum.

I've no doubt there are some cracking frames out there to be had for a fraction of the price as the same thing with big brand stickers on. Also I've no doubt there's some crap out there.

I've no doubt there are some cracking frames out there

My take on it is that sometimes it might actually be the same. Sometimes it might look the same but not actually be the same. Sometimes that difference might actually matter, sometimes it might not. You just don't know.

I see what you did there. Perhaps I should've said 'corking' 🙂

some of them do, like I offered njee he wants to come and see how he's more than welcome

So I assume you're laying up frames for one of the major manufacturers? Which one, if I may ask? Not Scott, because you sure as hell don't know how they're put together!

Bottom line though - they do just the same job (unless you're the sort o sucker who cares about perceived quality/image/status etc.)

CBAsed.

They do do the same job too.

Great argument. AAA+. Go to the top of the class.

Spesh taking a stake in Merida is pretty much a textbook example of outsourcing.

njee Its not a personal attack its an offer to expand your knowledge, I assumed you knew peter

Who cares about the carbon quality, at £180 buy an on-one cr-mo frame, at least you know it's solid and has been designed by a rider that knows how a bike should ride.

There's more threads about failed On One's than Chinese carbon frames...

[sycophant]

Who cares about the carbon quality, at £180 buy an on-one cr-mo frame, at least you know it's solid and has been designed by a rider that knows how a bike should ride

Thanks.

I'd still like someone to convince me either way as I am looking for a new road frame.

There's more threads about failed On One's than Chinese carbon frames...

Is there? Can you post a link to a failed carbon On One?
Genuine interest, honest! 🙂

Woohoo my carbon whippet frame just arrived from on-one...oh sorry, wrong thread 🙂

Sorry to go back to those Chinarellos but they offer 2 years warranty thats the same as Pinarello if you don't register within 10 days of purchase extra 12 months if you do, though I don't know how good Chinarellos warranties are.

🙄 Daily Deal tomorrow? 🙄

According to [url= http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2011/03/beware-of-fake-pinarello-bikes.html ]this[/url] Pinarello use Toray carbon and according to that Chinarello advert they also use Toray carbon so is the advert lying or is Pinarello trying to put people off them?

Daily deal?

brant - Member
Daily Deal tomorrow?

Never mind all this carbon stuff on Daily Deal - get some 29er tyres on

😀

Tron - other way round. Merida own part of spesh.

A guy at work has a chinarello. I would say its extremely well made/ finished. Unless you were a seasoned bike geek you can't tell its a fake. I would quite happily buy/ ride one.

njee Its not a personal attack its an offer to expand your knowledge, I assumed you knew peter

Peter? WTF? I've not taken it as a personal attack in the least, dont worry. We're all still waiting for you to give any evidence whatsoever that you know what you're talking about. Everything you've said suggests you have no clue. And repeatedly saying 'I know more than most' just makes you sound like a bit of a tool!