[Closed] Cheeky trails, polite militancy, and developing a thick skin

Were you by any chance going just a teensy bit faster than you usually would after your encounter with the attractive lady in a slightly deluded effort to somehow impress her, thus causing your knee mishap? 😉

Was thinking about this today on my run.

I think in our natural English default mode we know we are breaking "the law" and feel guilty about it. We have allowed the "rambler" protection of his perceived rights to sole use to get in the way of thinking about it from a first principles prospective.

When defining legal right of ways surely the differentiation between footpath and bridleway was made for the landowners benefit not the users. A bridleway is more faff to maintain - horses need wider access, can't duck under low trees or cross a boundary with just a style. Landowners must have wanted to limited the number of rights of way over which this level of facility was needed. As the user of a vehicle that can be man handled around such obstacles and being fit and healthy and enough to do so I really can't see where the harm is (provided I am sensible not to use at times when I might cause unjustifiable erosion and I pay due diligence not to harass other users). If all footpath were to be made a right of way for cyclists I can see an unfair pressure put on landowners to upgrade the existing facilities so that Mr & Mrs Blogs and the blogettes could safely pass down them all with their mountain bikes and tow behind. Use of the existing paths by bikes in current condition with a "on your head be it" attitude to cycle use would seem a very sensible approach.

I'm with you Buzz - I'm over 40 and want to maximise my riding experiences, especially in my locality. I'm not going to let hostorical, mistaken classification of "paths" stop me.

I do see a difference between being challenged by the landowner, especially if near their house, vs being told off by a random member of the public. I'll never know why your average joe goes vigilante at bikers, when they wouldnt take it on themselves to enforce any other of society's laws (and probably break plenty themselvers)?

I spent yesterday getting cheeky around Dursley, not one issue with walkers or golfers, despite passing crowds doing the Cotswold Way. Be polite, slow down, smile - there's room for all of us.

you made the fatal mistake of falling for her troll. I alway reply with a "Really??? Golly I am so sorry, I have been cycling here for years and years and never knew that, thanks." and then ride off. Best done on Dartmoor when someone gets really arsey with you.

Were you by any chance going just a teensy bit faster than you usually would after your encounter with the attractive lady in a slightly deluded effort to somehow impress her, thus causing your knee mishap?

Yep, right on the money! A fine looking filly in her early 40s; even her dog looked charming. Maybe it was the twinkling sunlight in the woods, or the joyful, flowing singletrack that put me in the mood, but in another life, I'd have asked for her phone number.

When riding in Englandshire I just make out to be an ill educated Scot and stand open mouthed when they tell me England has not the same access rights as Scotland. (worked so far)

Cheers Buzzy for the ride this morning, great trails and weather, look like you caught the lady on a bad day! I wouldnt worry about what she said, to me she talked load of crap lol

I was grumbled at a few weeks ago by a fellow mountain biker, that was a first. For anyone that knows Combe rocks above Glossop, there is a very useful footpath along the ridge that takes you over towards Rowarth. Got to the Rowarth end and a guy started wingeing at us. We'd seen the landowner at the bottom and asked him if we could ride it and he said it was fine, but this guy was having none of it.

cheeky trail before 6pm not for me, I will challenge a rider if I'm out walking. Take your beating and walk away!!

I'm with you Buzz.....usually I respond to the "Do you know this is a footpath" type comment with a "Yes, silly isn't it..." and ride on.

When it comes down to it, I've never seen a high profile case of trespass for a MTB riding on a footpath......the landowner is the only one that can prosecute for tresspass, it's a civil matter not criminal so no police - I reckon the more people that ride footpaths the quikcker access rights will be changed.

Interesting phrase - 'abuse legislation'. Strictly speaking, I feel 'flagrant disregard' to be more appropriate. B-)

I always start with [i]thank god you are here[/i] confuses them than followed by [i]slightly lost can you show me the way back ?[/i] works everytime more so go golf courses for some reason lol

This is, thankfully a free country where as an English man I have the right to roam without anyone telling me what part of our country I can or cannot enjoy. I ignore the busy bodies. They are powerless. I don't tend to ride any footpaths and always say hello and thanks. But if I saw a nice trail I would ride it. No one enforces these arcane laws. Most I see are a few meaningless signs. Anyone trying to physically stop me are committing an offence and are likely to be ridden over. Then sued to the full extent of the law.

I don't hold any truck with the old innocent lost biker routine. Like Buzz, I'm polite, but clear that I'm no lost oaf, and I'm making a rational decision to flout the law. That way, I hope they might reflect on our encounter in a more thoughtful way than just tutting all the riders that can't read maps...

Today early doors on my local, some tourist "no cycling!"
Me "Really whys that?"
Tourist "Its the law"
Q standard response.
"Daft isn't it, as we've both shown that we can use the path responsibly and before Kinder Scout the law would have said you shouldn't be here either."
"hmmph"
"Enjoy the rest of your walk."
Summer is here.

"You can't cycle here"

"I can manage just fine thanks!"

in another life, I'd have asked for her phone number

Just tell her there's been reports of a flasher in the area so just be thankful us cyclists are around to help protect you, you ungrateful cow. 🙂

My wife was pushed off her bike and went headfirst over the bars and into a tree by a walker who objected to us being on a footpath. Footpath was around 15ft wide and regularly used by bikes. His explanation was that previously riders had whizzed past him with no warning.

Needless to say, I was not amused. We had 'words'.

My line is simple. If I know the area I'll ride responsibly and sensitively wherever the hell I like. There is plenty of room for everyone. Most walkers are cool, a minority are pricks. This is mirrored in all groups of people, everywhere. Be confident, pleasant and firm.

My wife was pushed off her bike and went headfirst over the bars and into a tree by a walker who objected to us being on a footpath.

Sorry, but thats grounds for a good hiding in my book. Not words.

Sorry, but thats grounds for a good hiding in my book. Not words.

well the chap was in his 70s so a beating was out of the question unfortunately. I was content to take his glasses off and chuck them into the undergrowth.

we ride footpaths loads in hertfordshire

i love it when a walker with a dog off the lead challenges you, guess what my counter argument is?

My understanding is that the law in England says you have no right to cycle or ride a horse on a footpath but doesn't say you MAY not. Could be wrong though.

As somebody else points out above, most footpaths were bridleways anyway because they existed for centuries as packhorse trails. Then in the 60s everything was classified for the OS maps and 95% of BWs were reclassified as FPs by local councils who wanted to avoid the extra maintenance obligations.

To give the opposite view: my wife and daughter were out riding the other evening and took a footpath. As they got to a stile they came across a bunch of walkers, whose first words were: "Hi, d'you want an hand over with the bikes?"

No ill feelings, a brief chat about the lovely evening, and off they went.

Most walkers are absolutely fine. Obviously there are some arses, but then you get them everywhere, even on this fine forum,

Most walkers are absolutely fine. Obviously there are some arses, but then you get them everywhere, even on this fine forum,

QFT

I was always against riding on footpaths.

Unfortunately near me Sheffield Wildlife Trust and the council have teamed up to make every bridleway 6 foot wide, perfectly smooth and generally bland looking.

Ironically it seems that the bridleways are now better suited for walkers and anyone who wants a varied surface has to look elsewhere

My understanding is that the law in England says you have no right to cycle or ride a horse on a footpath but doesn't say you MAY not. Could be wrong though.

Bang on the money!

[i]cheeky trail before 6pm not for me, I will challenge a rider if I'm out walking. Take your beating and walk away!! [/i]

oh dear ...knobber alert !

I met a fruitcake woman a few weeks back, wearing a bright yellow mac with matching hat and boots when it was +20'C and bright sunshine. As I rode past she told me to smile for the camera and that she was going to report me to the council 😆

Kev

As nickf says, the vast majority of walkers I meet on FP's (which is few and far between given that I tend to ride them at quiet times) are polite and friendly. Even in the Peak District I've only had a few "you shouldn't be here" comments and those are always near car parks, busy areas. Once you get out into the hills, very few people care.

cheeky trail before 6pm not for me, I will challenge a rider if I'm out walking. Take your beating and walk away!!

Why do you? Is it a 'I don't so other people shouldn't' 'It'll spoil it for everybody' or 'people shouldn't be out having fun' type thing? I'm genuinly interested, I've never worked out why people feel the need to police other actions - unless they are in the police of course!

"You can't cycle here"

"I can manage just fine thanks!"

LOL - I like that one 😉

I've never worked out why people feel the need to police other actions - unless they are in the police of course!

And even the Police don't fell the need to police these actions.

I started a similar thread a couple of weeks ago where I was accused of being an 'environment vandal' by some sour faced old trout, strangely about 10minutes later I had an unclipping incident and fell over into a small stream getting soaked....

DT78/buzz-lightyear - they're all witches out for a constitutional I tell thee.

Why do you? Is it a 'I don't so other people shouldn't' 'It'll spoil it for everybody' or 'people shouldn't be out having fun' type thing? I'm genuinly interested, I've never worked out why people feel the need to police other actions - unless they are in the police of course!

Sort of playing Devils Advocate here but you'd complain if you found a walker wandering round at a trail centre. You're riding that place not expecting to see walkers, equally a walker is out on a FP not expecting to see bikes/horses. It's a really difficult balancing act - asking for full access to the countryside while still wanting exclusive access to parts of forests...

I do see a difference between being challenged by the landowner,

Yes, I do too. The landowner, or representative, has cause to complain about the trespass "offence" and can use "reasonable force" to evict me; so I take that very seriously. Although when confronted I ask for permission to continue, usually denied, and ultimately retire to the nearest RoW. Normally, completely amicably.

Landowners have different issues, for example:

1. I followed a land rover through a farm gate before turning off toward the bridleway, but stopped for a chat to the farmer. He mentioned that I should have used the BW gate and I agreed. But since the farm gate was open I used that - "fair enough" he said. I asked him if he'd had many problems with the new bridleway. He said that the only problem was not normal RoW users, who don't bother him at all, but thieves stealing the knackered car batteries from his cattle fences!

2. The owner of a local wood is generally tolerant of all the trail building and trespass that goes on, perhaps realising it's a losing battle and pointless to enforce. But is justifiably concerned when it interferes with his shooting activity which brings him income. Fair enough IMO.

So yes, I think it's good to be sensitive to genuine landowner issues, but be militant with the run-of-the-mill busybodies 🙂

you'd complain if you found a walker wandering round at a trail centre

Only in-so-much that I'd be concerned for their safety, given the full-bore approach that these trails encourage. One rides RoWs with rather more caution.

re: point 2) - I think the problem with not stopping trail building is that you're seen as condoning it and they may have legal implications if someone injures themselves.

the other issue with 'perpetual' cheeky trails is that after 20(?) years of continuous access there may be a 'right' in place which makes the land worth less.

I ride cheeky trails all the time, as above, I'm just polite if I do come across walkers and try and avoid obviously busy times of the week/day.

Bringing in a logical "what harm is this bike doing here?" question to the argument seems helpful.

Does the walker object because the presence of the biker is ruining their experience (feeling harrassed or inconvenienced, percieves rightly or wrongly that the bike is causing errosion a pedestrian would not) or just that the biker should not be there by the letter of the law.

Does the land owner object because the presence of the biker is damaging business (e.g. scaring livestock), causing errosion or pontentially endangering themselves on his land or is it just that they should not be there by the letter of the law.

If it is for the first reasons (irrespective if you agree or not) it is fair enough - if the second it's just being petty and small minded.

personally the most inconsiderate people I have come across are fishermen on towpaths they take up large sections of path with their gear and them damn pole things are just ridicules got challenged by one the other week told him he should try fishing on the other side of the bank rather than use a 5mtr+ pole

re: point 2) - I think the problem with not stopping trail building is that you're seen as condoning it and they may have legal implications if someone injures themselves.

Yes, I see that. The owner of the wood has recently removed some "features" that were particularly sketchy, including some gap jumps that have caused problems for passing horse riders; quite understandable. I predict that a combined user/owner group will form before too long to co-operate on multi-use issues.

the other issue with 'perpetual' cheeky trails is that after 20(?) years of continuous access there may be a 'right' in place which makes the land worth less

Not sure about this. Are you saying that a field/moor/wood has reduced salable value if it is crossed by trail? Or maybe this is specific to trails adjacent to residential property?

I absolutely agree that trail users, doing any activity, should not inconvenience other trail users or the work and privacy of the landowner. And all of us should be concerned about maintaining the good condition of trails. In my experience landowners are positively the worst culprits for damaging trails and the environment.

That's the bridleway sign, lying on the ground where it was run-down:[img] [/img]

Sort of playing Devils Advocate here but you'd complain if you found a walker wandering round at a trail centre.

On FC land, walkers can walk where they like.

So let me get this straight...In Engerland, you can't ride a bike anywhere you like? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

[i]Are you saying that a field/moor/wood has reduced salable value if it is crossed by trail? Or maybe this is specific to trails adjacent to residential property?[/i]

Certsinly near urban areas land with rights of way on it is worth less as development opportunities may be reduced.

My understanding is that the law in England says you have no right to cycle or ride a horse on a footpath but doesn't say you MAY not. Could be wrong though.

Bang on the money!

Pah, in the interest of anal levels accuracy, I'm going to have to qualify my own statement -

[i]You have no [u]recorded[/u] right to cycle or ride a horse on a footpath but doesn't say you MAY not[/i]

I had an encounter with a walker a few weeks ago...

It was on a moderately steep downhill, so I passed him as wide as possible and at walking pace. He told me I shouldn't be riding there since it was a footpath. I said that I knew it was a footpath, but I couldn't see the harm in riding it when under control and in the current (dry) conditions.

We talked for quite a few minutes and his main complaint was that some bikers go too fast and don't leave enough room when passing. When I pointed out that this could equally well happen on a bridleway and that the problem was those particular bikers being idiots rather than the classification of the path they were on... he conceded.

We parted ways with him saying that I had ruined his arguments and he wished all bikers were considerate. Quite a few more minds out there to change (including idiot bikers), but some can be changed.

Aidan - good story. I had the same a while ago, a walker said "you shouldn't be here this is a FP" to which I gave the stock answer of "yes, how silly" and then explained to him that the path we were on was obviously used by the farmer cos I was riding in a bloody great tractor rut. I was therefore doing no harm, it was a wide flat trail, I hadn't buzzed him or ridden fast and had been polite and friendly.

Amazingly, after a second or two's thought, he conceded that it was silly that the trail was FP and we wished each other a nice day and carried on our respective ways.

My attitude varies depending on the person accosting me. I've done everything from playing the little lost biker routine to ignoring them to (on one occasion recently) telling a violent old lady to f off.

IIRC, re: the 20 year rule, the Landowner or other appropriate person only has to show there have been steps to oppose the use of the path / trail. This can take all sorts of forms (signs, barriers, talking to some "tresspassers" etc). Just because one person (or a number of them) get away with unchallenged use doesn't then mean a RoW is established i.e. landowner doesn't have to catch everyone, just one person.

RoW can be diverted, developments can be arranged to preserve or accomodate them. The establishment of a RoW does not automatically mean £0 land value, irrespective or urban or rural setting although magnitude / gross land value can be different.

After 6 pm? That sounds rather arbitrary, to the point where it's a meaningless, personal little rule. Much like lots of access law 😉

I agree with the sentiments of being open about your use, polite, firm and adopting a share-and-share-alike attitude. There's knobs in all walks of life, some on foot, some in cars, some on bikes but most folk are alright in the round, on the whole 😎

As someone pointed out, FC land is almost always open access for walkers. Trail centres aren't sensible places to be walking but they're still often legally entitled to be there. After all, lots of trail centres incoporate facilities for the family, kids, ramblers, with nature and sculpture trails etc. So it's not like you couldn't reasonably guess there'll be a few out and about around the trails.

Just got back from a week with Doug @ BasqueMTB (bloody great holiday). On the first day there was a rambling organised event, so a lot of people out and about, and every single person we passed smiled, said hello, stepped out of our way, cheered us on and generally made us feel super welcome. It really was a stark contrast with the attitude we get in the UK.

[i]polite militancy[/i] ❓

polite militancy ❓

Yes, I've unintentionally coined an oxymoronic expression 😆 But I feel it conveys the sentiment.

We were riding on an Alp in Switzerland and some localish psycho pulled a bigknife on us. I didnt see it but it goes to show its not just England.

(its was on Toboggan iirc)

its was on Toboggan iirc

as if that trail isn't scary enough 😯

I've been told off for riding a footpath once and that was by the landowner - pleaded ignorance (I honestly didn't know it was 'their' land) and said I'd got the route off a website :S

Overall though, I do most of my riding on footpaths. They offer much better options and in 7 years of living in Calderdale, have only had that one 'telling off' and every single time I ride, I meet pleasant people who are, like me, out and about, enjoying the countryside.

just make out to be an ill educated Scot

Toboggan in Verbier? Oddly, I had a group of frenchies try and tell me I shouldn't be riding on a trail there when we were out there with BV. I told them in my best french to "**** off" which considering I only know how to say that in english, came out very like "**** off".

Hey, I was a brit abroad, what was I meant to do 😉

Having just come back from rural France where I rode in the local forest.

There were marked trails for MTBs, horses and walkers, some shared some seperate. In general it seems everyone uses all of them (tyre tracks on the walking paths and footprints on the MTB tracks).

Saw a few walkers, all were lovely.

However on my local trails it's not the same story.

My riding is generally either footpaths in local woodland or unclassified tracks in a large deer park where bikes have been arbitrarily been banned apart from a the tarmac track running through it.

Ironically at busy times this tarmac strip is covered in dogs off leads, small childrens and fat people out for a waddle.

If someone challenges me and I hear them (I use an iPod on solo rides) then I use the "silly isn't it" defence which whilst being mildly amusing probably isn't going to win hearts and minds, in fact I have been called a Bar Steward and C U Next Tuesday in a couple of run ins but these are very rare.

Has to be said that the vast majority of run ins I have had have been in the afore mentioned park not in the woods on legit footpaths.

Having damaged my knee I find it painful to walk, fortunately cycling does not aggrevate my knee and helps me to remain mobile. Although I'm not 'disabled' (no blue badge), I regard my bike as a means of mobility (much like a motability scooter is).

I think of these challenges as irrational and selective vigilantism. You're not offending against the walker, so why they feel the need to complain is beyond me. I hope they'd all be as quick to help out a victim of a mugging or catch a bike thief in the act.....

I guess we're easy targets, less scary than horse riders, 4x4s or crossers to deal with.

As said above, mainly a UK (English) problem - small minds and small country is a bad combo.

ps - had a great day yesterday on the bike selflessly keeping footpaths clear and barely saw a walker using any of them.