[Closed] cheating roadies again.... ?

Proof, as if proof were needed
[img] http://tinyurl.com/moftwjt [/img]

I take it all back, Discoduck you were right all along.

Yes, lets be terribly adult and try to damage the reputation of a professional sportsman based on three seconds of footage we don't understand.

Hesjedal admitted to doping; his reputation is mediocre anyway.

Of course those who thought Cancelarra were cheating were idiots. Just like I'm an idiot too as are the posters who also think that it's odd that a wheel that's static can Kick back and turn whilst gathering momentum.

Well people who thought Cancellara was cheating WERE idiots. This makes me wonder what you're trying to say in the latter half of that paragraph.

roadies getting very defensive!!
the problem is that after watching the BBC4 doc ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b048wq0z) about the extent and barefaced arseholery of lance and the gang, its not surprising that people are suspiscous

fwiw I dont think [u]any[/u] sport is clean and that more money= more dodginess

See I told you ! But the one I'm talking about had an energizer battery fitted,

Joking apart, there's usually no smoke without fire and the fact that people are talking about it doesn't mean it's happening it doesn't mean it's not either, it isn't outside the realms of engineering to trial such a gadget and the cons may far outweigh the pros, it does sound pie in the sky but the way that the wheel kicks back and picks up momentum is odd, freaky in fact. You could try and replicate that a thousand times over and it would never happen again.

The one time it does it was right in front of the camera bike.

There are bound to be rumblings surrounding what looks like a torque driven spin,

I've got to be honest "Retarded" or not I'd love to see if there were a worm drive cog assisting the bottom bracket turning the crank arms, ONLY because I'm sceptical and have never seen something as odd on a human powered bike.

That's all,

I'm sceptical

You really, really aren't.

The crank arms don't move...

I'd love to see if there were a worm drive cog assisting the bottom bracket turning the crank arms

And you've still definitely not seen that, as Hesjedal's pedals aren't turning in the video...

Joking apart, there's [b]usually [/b]no smoke without fire and the fact that people are talking about it doesn't mean it's happening it doesn't mean it's not either,

This is one of those rare times.

Lemonysam, please explain why I'm not ?

Njee, I take it by your robust stance that you are the bloke who maintains his bike ?

In that case as you are 100% sure it's not happening then I bow down and accept that you are 100% sure that once he unclips the continuity is broken and the drive cut.

Why don't the cranks turn?

In that case as you are 100% sure it's not happening then I bow down and accept that you are 100% sure that once he unclips the continuity is broken and the drive cut.

Eh? That's not what makes me think it's absurdly far fetched. The UCI weigh every bike, and all parts used in road races have to be approved, do you honestly think that any rider, or more significantly any team, is going to risk their reputation by shoving a motor in the bike, which could be very easily detected.

It really is akin to Usain Bolt turning up to the Olympics with these:

[img] [/img]

Or an F1 team sticking the old V8 in this years car and hoping no one notices!

Lifer, the crank arm does move, look closely

Grab a bike, spin the back wheel up and let it go.

If it moves [i]by itself[/i], then you are a cheat, obviously.

If Ryder has got a motor in his bike, then unless the entire peloton has, thus negating the effect, then it is clearly a waste of time as he's been awful for the most part since his Giro win a few years back!

...and since when was cycling a multi billion dollar sport?! Aside from a handful of teams, the pro peloton is pretty skint thanks to 20 years of doping scandals.

Lifer, the crank arm does move, look closely

No it doesn't. He unclips at about 4 seconds in, the DS crank is at roughly 12 o clock, the bike pivots around the STI lever into the path of the moto, the pedal is still at 12 o clock.

If Ryder has got a motor in his bike, then unless the entire peloton has, thus negating the effect, then it is clearly a waste of time as he's been awful for the most part since his Giro win a few years back!

😆

Really?!

I fell off on some ice on the road once (on my mtb) and pretty sure my bike did something very similar.
Probably woulnd't look so weird if the gradient they were riding on was easier to make out in the video.

Even if they could have a motor in the frame somewhere, they'd also need some form of battery (have you seen how large the batteries are on e-bikes?). And road bikes are so light that trying to 'hide' something becomes all the more difficult as the proportion of total weight would be higher.

Mtbmatt, just tried it. Laid it down on its side with the rear wheel static and I let go of it and it just stayed there?

You can see the wheel static ? If the pedals don't turn and the contact with the shiny Tarmac has scrubbed the speed out of the wheel where does the torque come from ?

Is it the pivot on the lever that lightens up the back end, is that what your saying ?

For those convinced there's a motor in the bike:

Haven't you ever had to fettle your gears or put a dropped chain back on, spun your cranks with the back wheel off the air and put the bike back on the level? Sure you have, what happens? The wheel carries on spinning and skids on the surface you've put it on to.

Now take that 'phenomenon' add a large gear, super light bike balanced on a couple of mm square of plastic and a front tyre and see what happens. Of course the bike doesn't dig in, you're looking for something that isn't there.

The one time it does it was right in front of the camera bike

This is absolute rubbish, you are discounting the thousands of riders who have been filmed falling off where no 'odd-looking' bike movement has been seen.

Matt

Damn, even the MTB'rs are at it now. Hope the scrutineers at SSUK are on the ball.
[img] [/img]

[i]it's odd that a wheel that's static can Kick back and turn whilst gathering momentum.[/i]

Have you never had kickback when either the chain falls off the front then gets picked up again or the rear mech gets caught in the spoke, the wheel jams, the chain releases then the wheel spins at speed again.

Why am I adding fuel to this bullshit.

Does the wheel even stop? You can't see from the video, and I don't remember noticing when watching on TV.

I guess you guys all missed this on the gifs thread?

[img] [/img]

Missed what ?

There's an HD version -

Is the motorcyclist running over his back wheel..? or switching something OFF?

Just like I'm an idiot too as are the posters who also think that it's odd that a wheel that's static can Kick back and turn whilst gathering momentum.

Yes it would num'nuts.

Kick a football hard upto the air without making it spin, or heck, make it spin backwards for added effect, when it hits the ground it'll start to roll forewards. Does it;
a) have a motor in it
b) transfer linear momentum into angular momentum.

Any cricketer bowling a spinner, or snooker player adding top/bottom/side to a shot, or golfer, or footballer knows that you can transfer angular momentum to linear mometum very easily. The bike bikes losing momentum and slowing down, the least friction is from the back wheel which can turn, of course the bikes going to start to spin!

Yeah, and this cheating fracker has not just got a powered bike, but one that is completely remote controlled from his team helicopter!

😉

More seriously, lets look at the science:

A world class roadie is going to be putting out something like 400w over the duration of the event (lets say 2hrs). To make a significant difference in performance you'd want at least a 50w (at the wheels) electric motor.

55w for 2 hrs (inc 10% powertransmission losses) is 110w/hrs, but you need your battery to be bigger than your energy requirement to keep the voltage high enough to allow the motor to keep making the power required. Typically, your battery is at least 60% bigger than your energy requirement, so we need, in this case around 200w/hrs.

Now, typical current Lipo batteries have an energy density of around 150whrs/kg, so we need a 1.25kg battery pack.

A 50W motor weighs around 500g, and we need a variable speed inverter to drive it (say 200g) and a gearbox to get the power to the rear wheel (or cranks or whatever) so that's another 500g or so.
All up, we are looking at roughly 2.5kg extra mass, and of course, all parts/ wires etc have to be hidden in the frame invisibly.

So, why would the UCi need to Xray bikes to check for motors? They wouldn't, a simple set of scales would immediately show the cheaters!!

discoduck - Member
Missed what ?

Does this motor have a reverse gear?

discoduck - Member

I'm guessing that motorbike rider has seen bikes go down plenty of times and is competent enough to ride round it, the motorbike rider clearly slows waits for things to settle and moves on then all of a sudden the bike is moving again and he rides over it !

You might want to ask Steve Morabito about that...

maxtorque - Member
lets look at the science:

A world class roadie is going to be putting out something like 400w over the duration of the event (lets say 2hrs). To make a significant difference in performance you'd want at least a 50w (at the wheels) electric motor.

55w for 2 hrs (inc 10% powertransmission losses) is 110w/hrs, but you need your battery to be bigger than your energy requirement to keep the voltage high enough to allow the motor to keep making the power required. Typically, your battery is at least 60% bigger than your energy requirement, so we need, in this case around 200w/hrs.

Now, typical current Lipo batteries have an energy density of around 150whrs/kg, so we need a 1.25kg battery pack.

A 50W motor weighs around 500g, and we need a variable speed inverter to drive it (say 200g) and a gearbox to get the power to the rear wheel (or cranks or whatever) so that's another 500g or so.
All up, we are looking at roughly 2.5kg extra mass, and of course, all parts/ wires etc have to be hidden in the frame invisibly.

So, why would the UCi need to Xray bikes to check for motors? They wouldn't, a simple set of scales would immediately show the cheaters!!

Plus how many extra watts would the rider be using up just to push that extra 2.5kg?

You might want to ask Steve Morabito about that...

**Googles** oof! Nasty.

Just to add on the ebike power thing, have got power outputs of over 500watts while on the hibike, could add another 100watts for a fitter rider and correct size frame, obviously larger motor and battery pack, sure if you were to throw a fair amount of money at it could be made alot smaller and lighter with lower power unit.

So, the rider comes off the bike at whatever speed he's doing. The bike slides, on what looks like a very steep, cambered piece of relatively smooth tarmac. At first the bike slides in the same direction it was travelling, with three contact points: Pedal, shifter and probably rear wheel QR. If the tarmac were flawless the bike would simply continue to slide in the same direction, but it's decelerating from the point he comes off, and the camber is starting to have an effect. At the point the bike starts to spin I reckon the shifter (it's sliding pointy end forwards) only needs to hit a small bit of grippier tarmac, or an imperfection in the road surface for the momentum at the front of the bike to slow dramatically, at which point the bike pivots around the next contact point, the pedal. The heaviest part of the bike, the rear cluster, then continues to move, but as the shifter has slowed, the bike simply rotates around the cranks, and the effect is doubled by the downhill, cambered surface.

Peppered steak slice please.

have got power outputs of over 500watts while on the hibike, could add another 100watts for a fitter rider and correct size frame, obviously larger motor and battery pack, sure if you were to throw a fair amount of money at it could be made alot smaller and lighter with lower power unit.

How much smaller and lighter? Within 500g for the whole system? Otherwise it would stick out like a sore thumb when they weighed it. Unless the entire field was using motors and it was some sort of ruse from the UCI, in which case... why?

If it's just Hesjedal then again, why's he shit? Why not Talansky as well? As he's team leader? Is this something Hesjedal has done on the sly without his team's knowledge?

It really does beggar belief, there are so many absolutely glaring problems with it as a concept, and precisely no 'evidence' at all.

I don't get this. Surely it's just pivoting around the handlebars as the rear wheel tries to roll down the slope?

And all this stuff about the cranks moving- Eh? They're not, are they?

EDIT
Got to agree with njee too:

there are so many absolutely glaring problems with it as a concept

It's one thing being prepared to believe riders might cheat. It's another to just accept any old guff.

Peppered steak slice please.

With extra clenbuterol? 😉

I don't get this. Surely it's just pivoting around the handlebars as the rear wheel tries to roll down the slope?

Yep, completely!

Thisisnotaspoon, yes, thanks numb nuts, the only difference being that a ball isn't mechanically driven, but thanks all the same for similarity, suppose I hoof the ball into the air and when it lands stop it dead, would it then Drive itself forward and pick up momentum ?

My argument is based on one thing, he comes OFF the bike, the wheel hits the deck, despite numerous attempts to convince me otherwise the sliding comes to halt, he unclips at which point the rear wheel looks to be planted on the deck ? No ?

AND, No one looks more surprised than him when his bike pootles off without him as he makes several attempts to reign it back in.

I know some of you hate the whole sport being brought into question however looking at it can you at least not think ?

UH, that looks odd, and I know you have all smelt it felt it and done it twice and it happens every weekend on box hill or the strines but in my retarded viewpoint it looks odd ?

Down, slide, unclip at which point he is pulling against the rotational force of the drive train as he unclips cranks DO NOT move yet a wheel that's static picks up momentum and drives the bike through 180 degrees.
At which point it hits Elvis on his bike, who has run some one over before BUT, again in my view as I'm looking at it, it made contact with the motor bike and still it didn't look like it was slowing on its axis,

The whole incident seemed to STOP and then drive on.

discoduck - Member

AND, No one looks more surprised than him when his bike pootles off without him as he makes several attempts to reign it back in.

Well surely that suggests there isn't a motor, 'cause if there was, he wouldn't be surprised that it was still going.

Occams razor init. I'd suggest the assumptions that you're basing your argument on are flawed.

It does look very suspect at first but then it is a steep banked corner and it got me to thinking about how many times I had laid my mountain bike down like that on a slope and it had rotated around the pedal that was in connection with the ground whether the wheel was in contact or not. The gathering momentum thing could just be gravity as the bike slides down the slope.

Who knows, I do enjoy a good conspiracy theory though.

More to the point, where can I buy one?

Adam, exactly that, it just looks out if sorts for a stationary bike to spin up and pivot, AND just to confuse ME* it puts down that much torque on a smooth shiny surface whilst propelling itself up the gradient, against the descent.

Eh? You'd think the bike wheeled itself 10 feet up the road. It pivots about a point dragging on the surface (the STI).

I don't get this. Surely it's [b][u]just pivoting[/u][/b] around the handlebars as the rear wheel tries to roll down the slope?

Yep, completely!

It's being driven round IMO and it doesn't look at all like he kicks it away to start it off. Also IMO, that driving is done by the spinning wheel as I can see no other credible means of doing it (crank not rotating AFAICS). It needs the slightly freak circumstance of the back wheel not touching the floor until after hesjedal is completely detached from it but I can live with that.