Seeing as there have been a few threads about both these bikes recently, I thought I'd add my two pen'orth. I recently swapped from a Chameleon frameset (XL) to a Soul (L) with similar builds and having ridden the Soul 3 times now (2 frozen and 1 muddy ride), the different characters have really shone through.
I originally built the Cham about 4 years ago, but it never got used as I preferred riding my Blur. However, when the Blur broke last summer, I dusted down the Chameleon and rode it enough to get over the initial discomfort. I definitely think one needs time to settle into riding hardtails after riding full sus almost exclusively, and whilst the Chameleon is probably the opposite end of the spectrum in terms of comfort, I really started to love riding it.
The slack headtube and steepish seat tube make for really confident descending but I found it very unforgiving on technical stuff, particularly climbs where it would pitch me off at the first opportunity. It was at its most unforgiving on ruts or diagonal roots where the sheer solidity of the frame meant there was no margin for error. The flip side of this was razor sharp responses and I think it's made me a much better rider on technical descents.
First impressions of the Soul are that the seat tube is considerably slacker, whilst the head angle is fractionally steeper. I expected this to result in a light front end when climbing, but the front actually stays planted far longer than the Chameleon, probably due to that head angle and slightly longer stays. It's easy to get caught out by bikes with a steeper head angle but at no point during the first 3 rides has the head angle felt anything other than 'just right'.
I've put a lighter wheelset on the Soul - Crests/Pro2s as opposed to XM321s/Hope XCs - and including disks, I've saved about 800g of rotating weight, so I'd expect the Soul to feel livelier on acceleration, and whilst the steel frame has a much more forgiving handling, it doesn't seem to sacrifice any urgency over the Santa Cruz.
Where the Cotic really excels though, is on rutted, technical climbs and descents. That slightly slower handling really helps the bike track across ruts and roots without trying to flick the rider off.
So in summary, I'm going to miss the Chameleon for short sharp blats round the local forest and fells on summer evenings, but I think I've found the perfect frame for the type of riding I do.
Build:
Chameleon (pre-EBB US built size XL): Revelation Air U-Turn 130mm, XT triple drivetrain, Mavic XM321s on Hope XC, Mono M4s, Nokian NBX 2.3s.
Soul (2011 Large): Revelation Air U-Turn 130mm, XT triple drivetrain, Stans Crest on Pro2s, Hope X2 brakes, Nokian NBX 2.3s.
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As a longtime Bontrager fan, I remain seriously tempted by the Soul.
Mmmm, wishbones...
Interesting, own a cham and wouldnt mind a look at a soul, cant say ive even fallen off my cham climbing even the most tech stuff though..
Nice write up. Whats the bottom bracket height difference between the Cham and the Soul? I suspect the Soul is lower which might explain some of what your feeling.
Beanie, I didn't mean falling off, just being forced off line and 'dabbing' in places where the Soul just seems to soak it up and carry on.
The BB doesn't 'feel' much lower, but I didn't measure the Cham before I dismantled it.
noteeth:
Held the bare Soul frame against a Race. To say it was similar is an understatement!
From memory, the rear triangle/ seat stay was identical. The front triangle pretty much the same except the head tube about an inch further from the seat tube - the top tube being longer on the Soul.
That was a Medium race v's a Small '08 Soul.
Have had a bit of a sabbatical recently, but once i'm up and riding again, I'll try and save up for the new version Soul.
You get gussets as well as wishbones then!
In my opinion the Soul is a new version Race.
cheers
Q
Nice write up. I'm pleased you're pleased.
I think I've just found riding contentment in a Sanderson Blitz which I bought on an impulse, constrained only by the toss of a coin. For a purchase I put no thought into whatsoever (beyond the fact that it was becoming obvious that my ti456 and me were not hitting it off, even after a multitude of kit changes) it's turned out really well. It's way more balanced, climbs and descends better...I'm even getting used to the extra weight!
Must be love!
Just for reference, the Soul is 50 grams heavier than the Chameleon frame.
I suppose a lot of the 'abrupt' could be put down to the more rigid wheelset used on the Cham too.
Had a look at Sandersons before choosing the Soul, they seem to tick an awful lot of boxes, it's surprising they're not as popular as Cotics and Pipedreams...
Wouldn't a steeper HT angle result in faster steering?
The steering response is perhaps marginally quicker, but the way the back end responds feels smoother and less twitchy.
I'd always been skeptical about the mythical 'steel feel', and perhaps you'd be less likely to notice it moving from a more compliant frame than the Chameleon, but it definitely feels more compliant...
I've also been tempted by a Soul but after seeing one in the flesh at my LBS (one of the guys there has ordered a frame) I have to say the finishing is pretty gruesome. Sloppy looking welding and the top tube to seat tube junction looks particularly horrible. I'm talking purely aesthetically as I am sure the frame will hold up to all the abuse.
RS: P'raps it was an unusual 'friday Afternoon' one.
Mine's got a lovely finish, welds nice and a gloss black finish on the paint to just loveingly stroke and occasionally polish! 😉
Q
[i]Just for reference, the Soul is 50 grams heavier than the Chameleon frame.[/i]
I know it's a teeny amount, but this surprises me.
[i]To say it was similar is an understatement![/i]
Ha - iirc, we've had this conversation before. 😀
Must... resist... another... frame.
noteeth:
😳
err.....you might be right!
Perhaps the cold has killed a few more cells.......
I resisted for almost 2 years, but then gave in.
Go on.....you know it makes sense!!!!!
cheers
Q
😀
It was [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/cotic-soul-the-new-one-vs-the-old-one ]true then[/url] - and it's still true now...
I've nearly finished building up a RM Blizzard, so it might have to wait. But I definitely like 'em.
It's a shame Trek didn't carry on with the Privateers, really. They could have tapped a similar market.
noteeth:
Thanks for reminding me - it seemed a bit familiar when I was typing up there ^^^ now I know why!
Yes the privateer was a good bike, KB always said it was the one he really wanted to make .i.e. a cheaper version of the Race for the masses.
I sold my privateer when the Soul came along. Was using the rigid Privateer for the wet stuff and the Race + Pace RC35's for the dry because the selas in the Pace's was rubbish, so yes the Race got hardly ever used.
Have a set of '08 coil RS Rev's on the Soul and it is superb. My first 'new' bike since '96 so now have discs and shox that can put up with weather. also living where I do, it's great to wind them down to 100mm and climb out the valley, then unwind them to 130mm to come home.
Still, a Blizzard's always had a good reutation, you might find once built it suits you sir.
.....but if you like Bonty's 😉
[i]you might find once built it suits you[/i]
Well, my Bonty Race remains my fave bike ever... especially in fast woodsy singletrack. That said, I don't find it to be the most comfortable for long distance, all-day rides - and I think that's what I have in mind for the RM (and let's not forget the rack mounts...).
But I could happily make room for a Cotic... 😀
nickc - MemberI know it's a teeny amount, but this surprises me.
It surprised me a bit to be honest. With headset and seat clamp, the Soul is 2309g and the Cham 2247g.
The total build for the Soul is 27.5lb.
I suppose the extra gusseting on the latest Soul accounts for some weight, but I think this confirms what a brilliant frame the Santa Cruz is: to have that much strength for such a low weight.
I have to say though, the finish on the Soul is superb; beautiful welds and can't fault the paintwork.
@ shibboleth & nickc:
What surprised me about the respective weights was that a steel (i.e. supposedly "heavy") frame was so close to the weight of a (well-respected) aluminium frame... and I mean surprised in a good way 🙂
FWIW I've been riding a Soul since 2004, and I love it to bits!
I didn't expect an 853 frame to be particularly heavy, but when you look at the 2 frames side by side, the Santa Cruz looks like it's going to be heavy: The massive headtube gussets, the box section chainstays/chainstay bridge, and the seat stays which are about twice as thick in diameter as those on the Cotic.
My riding mates were always surprised at the lightness of the Chameleon when helping me over fences/stiles etc, and that was with a heavy wheelset and bigass tyres. I wish I'd weighed the full build before dismantling, but I'd guess it was around the 28.5-29lb mark...
I think the Santa Cruz is intended to be a bit more 'hardcore' than the Soul.
IMO the Soul is fairly light for a steel frame, whilst the Chameleon is quite chunky for an Alu frame.
Absolutely Poppa, but I was surprised just how light the Chameleon frame is for such a burly bit of kit...