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Don't shift under load. Would you change gear in your car without dipping the clutch? No. You can't make informed comments about smoothness of shifting if you're (and excuse me for this) dumb-ass enough to shift under load.
It really bugs me when people say they wreck drivetrains, snap chains and suffer loads of wear, when they're changing gear whilst cranking hard.
Have a little mechanical sympathy and use a few skills.
Get a 34T cassette, why on earth would you not want an easier gear? You don't have to use it after all.
so, in reality, I could possibly get away with 32x16 for most occasions?
stick with the 32T and push slightly harder
well that would be another a 2 grand for a quickie hernia op then? not all of us want to push hard!
* i'm never going to be using 22x34 - it's ludicrous gear and as somebody else said you'll still only be going at the speed of a cat if you're spinning wildly
Not ludicrous if you want to get up a long climb without walking and your fitness isn't great. I'd rather spin up slowly than stop and walk slowly...
snakebite - Member
so, in reality, I could possibly get away with 32x16 for most occasions?
[b]You[/b] possibly could. I definitely couldn't 😉
I never thought so much could be written about 2 teeth out of so many, but then it's a bigger difference than that between 170 and 175mm cranks and look at all the vituperation that attracts!
Shimano don't make 9 speed road cassettes in 12-28, the biggest they do is 12-27, which is what a Dura Ace mech can handle.
For all these people using road cassettes I'd advise trying a 2x9 without a granny ring, better chainline, less shifting on the front mech. I found I shifted constantly with a road cassette, and didn't really like it.
And I agree that there is no link between cassette size and chainsuck! Even 'smoothness' shouldn't be affected. Having seen your bikes Tim I'd suggest it's decidedly related to set-up!
Ti29er - MemberI might be wrong.
You are.
This thread, in fact the whole site is like a car crash. I shouldn't be posting on a thread arguing about two teeth on a sprocket, let alone reading it but I just can't help myself
ti29er, I don't dount your experience but if you are implying that the 34t cassette is the cause (and you are, are you not?) then you are wrong.
In 6 weeks a chain can wear enough to feel rough on a new cassette. The chainsuck is a coincidence.
I don't know about anyone else, but there are hills I know where a rapid shift in gears whilst struggling up the hill is as inevitable as Labour being ousted at the next General Election!
So shifting under load is going to happen. Maybe I'm not as an accomplished a rider as some?
What is interesting, however, is the concept of using the Granny ring more frequently.
This throws into sharp relief the 32-34 debate, debasing it in perhaps one fell-swoop?
If down-sizing the rear cassette to 28T gives you more shifting on the front mech' to the granny, but a far smoother and almost (?) seamless set of shifts between gears, as bonji is perhaps experiencing, and I grant you there will be more shifting both fore and aft, then maybe that's the debate & not over 2x teeth.
My own stomach hernias don't seem to gripe over this mountain biking lark.
Tim
ps - so, make your point Sam - you have omitted to tell us anything!
The switch to a 34T may be a coincidence, implied or otherwise.
Made my point about halfway down page 1 Tim!
Changing to a 34 has meant I can get up a hill on the bike where I used to have to get off and push.
It also means I'm changing about on the front less - can stick in middle/34 rather than having to drop to the granny.
Again, where are you riding if, in the granny ring and 32T are you are getting off and walking?
I don't think having 2x extra teeth will make THE difference at this present point in time - I might be wrong.
Precisely my point - it made the difference for me - you are wrong!
ourkidsamChanging to a 34 has meant I can get up a hill on the bike where I used to have to get off and push.
It also means I'm changing about on the front less - can stick in middle/34 rather than having to drop to the granny.
Yup - especially if you are using 22/36 bash.
Why can't you change more on the front?
This is a theme I'm more interested in now TBH.
If you better understood the ratios, and worried less about the "dreaded" granny ring, maybe you'd have saved your pennies.
It seems to me, that you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Here’s a thought.
To my mind, the granny ring has, if you will, has something of, a bad press.
How many of us have secretly scoffed at riders ahead of us, on an given hill, spinning like loons in the granny when they’d be far better off in the middle ring? Where you're making better progress?
Now, on the back of having bought in 2009 a 29er, I can tell you that momentum is vital to realising the bike’s potential. Ergo, it’s just the same on a 26er.
So, when we’re struggling middle-&- 32T on a hill, refusing mentally to drop that front cog in to Granny, would we get more relief actually from Granny -&-2or 3 down on the rear cassette?
It’s something I’ve been experimenting with lately, and it’s quite a revelation.
Seriously, I’ve been quicker on some of my local hills by doing the opposite to the Macho image, I’ve been into the granny ring early on recently, it’s been a whole new learning curve.
All I suggest here is that maybe give it a try. You will need to move both front & rear to get similar ratios, but give it 3x rides and a fair crack and who knows, maybe it’ll make a difference.
Tim
I'm lazy!Why can't you change more on the front?
So, when we’re struggling middle-&- 32T on a hill, refusing mentally to drop that front cog in to Granny, would we get more relief actually from Granny -&-2or 3 down on the rear cassette?
I've got no qualms about spinning in the granny, trust me! I don't like to struggle so if I need to drop a gear (or three) I will.
What I'm saying is; at the point on a hill where you might need to drop in to the granny on a 32t cassette, with a 34t you can stay in the middle ring. If it doesn't get any steeper then you've saved yourself a change on the front mech.
Although that's really a secondary point. The main benefit for me is that you've got an easier first gear.
its not all about going quicker uphill....
Nope - just getting up will do
So, when we’re struggling middle-&- 32T on a hill, refusing mentally to drop that front cog in to Granny
think i right to say that on a 29er you would have to work harder to maintain cadence on middle and 32T than on a 26" wheel bike - if you are struggling at low cadence and then change?..... i wouldn't call that chain suck when it all goes horribly wrong!
How many of us have secretly scoffed at riders ahead of us, on an given hill, spinning like loons in the granny when they’d be far better off in the middle ring? Where you're making better progress?
I tend to find that i can make better progress by not [i]spinning like a loon[/i] by staying in my middle ring.
I have no problem using the granny and when i do i tend to change at the back at the same time other wise it is a big change in ratios.
antigee - not sure you understand chiansuck, which I have stated my well be a coincidence & it's at the front.
Please read previuos comments on earlier threads.
The nature of a 29er really required a 34T for the long, steep gradients you find in Scotland and some in Wales.
I see Shimano are now producing a 29-specific BB (?) and also a 36T rear cassette.
However, if, as you suggest, you're that fat and slow and unfit, why not get the bus?! 😮
Tim
antigee - not sure you understand chiansuck
always prepared to listen and learn - did a quick check with the late great Sheldon Brown and though we may disagree about facial hair he would seem to suggest that down shifting under load is when chain suck occurs
[i]Chain suck
Chain suck occurs primarily when downshifting under load from the middle to the smallest chainring. The bottom run of the chain may not immediately disengage from the middle ring, and can get carried upward until it wedges betwixt the chainwheels and the right chainstay.[/i]
i guess that i may be confusing the symptons of chain suck with the causes
as to catching the bus - what a waste! the fit peeps turning big gears won't have the joy of that spinning target on the horizon 8)
I like it myself... Not just for the super-low gear, though I've used it sometimes on long steep climbs or techy short ones, but also because of the wider range on the middle ring. But I wouldn't miss it too much if I went back to 32T I'm sure.
the top capacity for a 7800 dura-ace rear mech is 27 teeth according to shimano's technical documentation, 28 for a 7900.... If I ran the 7800 i got with a 11-28 would one tooth extra upset the apple cart too much?
I think the answer to 2 pages of tit for tat over 32 or 34 teeth cassettes is simple.
Ditch the lot and go single speed! I did and 6 months on I can ride the Whites Level at Afan on my P7 SS faster than my mates on 5inch full bouncers. (Yes it's a near death experience but the look on their faces makes it worth it!). Only very occasionly do I jump off and push, running 32x16.
When I do jump on full susser I now very rarely use the granny ring, so much so when it's worn out I'll change to a double and 28-11
Tim FFS how long have you been riding mountain bikes?
Your going off on one exactly like you did on BM before you threw the toys out!
Early on after I stopped riding road bikes we had 26x28 as the usual bottom gear, now I have various mountain bikes that have 22x34 & 22x32 as the lowest gear (excluding the 32x16 SS)
But guess what the ones with the 22x34 shift just as well as the 22x32 & do you know why?
Because I learnt gear shifting on road bikes back in the 70's when there was no indexing, no ramped cog's and 6 speed was for top pro's only.
I still take pride in shifting gear so that a rider behind me won't notice I've dropped a cog.
These days its more about smiles per mile than dropping someone, just because you got yourself in an MBR article about 29" vs 26" bikes please don't make assumptions that people don't have a depth of knowledge.
I still take pride in shifting gear so that a rider behind me won't notice I've dropped a cog.
well, bully for you kiddo 🙂 I'm at a loss as to how one would achieve this with rapidfire...
34x32 on the 1x9
32x34/22 on the double
A 34 and in most cases a double isn't needed at trail centres but on plenty of natural climbs especially all day rides you need all the help you get (I hate walking).
To answer the OP, just use the 34 then replace it with a 32 when it's wirn out.
simonfbarnes - MemberI still take pride in shifting gear so that a rider behind me won't notice I've dropped a cog.
well, bully for you kiddo I'm at a loss as to how one would achieve this with rapidfire...
Well seeing as Rapidfire is the shifter part not the sprockets IIRC that part is not really important
Shimano HG and all that followed just allowed you to get away with shifting under load due to ramping & cut outs. I guess its down to mechanical feel/sympathy, I care not one jot if you use all the stuff Shimano or SRAM give you as assistance to change under load, I'm just saying I come from a riding era that didn't have such aids 😉
Even though I'm younger than you as you so rightly point out, though I could do without the scouse inflection :p
though I could do without the scouse inflection :p
shame innit ?
So you mean you just don't press on when you change gear ? I was hoping for something more exciting 🙁 I too can remember manual, non indexed gear selection, and what a pain it was...
Its slightly more than that Simon, but if that's what you want then go with it!
Oh and I was born in the Midlands but grew up in Bristol so scouse is most definitely not in my accent 😕
Anyway the main thrust of my post in the first instance was to say that Tim was over analysing stuff as usual
My son borrowed my bike a couple of weeks ago, as his was out of commission, and rode 2 laps of Cannock FTD. He told me after that he never once used the granny ring. I cant do this and on some climbs I need tha granny ring and a 34T rear cog. The bottom line is : How strong are you and how fit are you.
11-32 on lighter hardtail.
11-34 on my heavy hardtail/hack.
12-25 on my roadbikes.
Fit folks should be fine with 11-32. I know some peeps using roadbike cassettes on their mtbs.
This thread's just going in circles!
A 34 and in most cases a double isn't needed at trail centres but on plenty of natural climbs especially all day rides you need all the help you get
That's gonna depend on the rider, it's all gonna depend on the rider!
I use a double, 30/42, chainset and thus like a 34, a 30/34 gear is more than low enough for me, I see no real need for a granny ring, but it's on a 21lb (FS) XC race bike.
I don't really see why people would remove granny rings or run road cassettes on a trail bike, you're just cheating yourself out of gears. Back OT though, assuming I did just have a triple, I'd probably get a 34, because there's no real reason not to have it there!
As Njee says, depends on the rider... but also the bike, and the location.
I have a 34 on my 40lb big bike and can climb the Hagg farm switchbacks without dabbing if someone will open the gate. Can't do it with a 32 at the back.
Don't see many others clearing it with whatever gearing is their personal choice.