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According to Max Commencal
I went to China to visit these factories. It was a shock for me, because the conditions were a disaster. The workers were working on frames with only paper masks. Kids, I say kids, but they are not kids because they are 18 or 20, are working there weaving the carbon fibre. It's dangerous. When you speak with their boss, he says, "in my factory you don't stay too long because your life might only be five years." So they work six months and they change. All the suppliers are asking for cheaper and cheaper carbon frames. When I came back, believe me, I was not comfortable. I said, I will lose sales, but I do not want to produce carbon. We produce aluminium frames, strong frames, it's a game and we are not there to... kill... only because we want to save 300g weight. So I said, "No, I don't want to produce carbon." I have produced carbon in Toulouse for Nico Vouilloz and Cedric Gracia, 15 or 20 years ago. But it was made in a room with no air in it, with people wearing protective equipment, and it's very expensive. In China, for me... I do not want to communicate on this, I only talk about this because you asked about it. I don't say that all factories are the same, maybe some are cleaner, but, for the moment... And we are working on some other technologies, you will see next year or the year after... With carbon you cannot repair it, you cannot recycle it. Too many bad things.
Still true today - his visit was 8 years ago ?
Remind me again about his strong aluminium frames?
Probably is in China, their reputation on working conditions isn't exactly a glowing one.
However it can be repaired, there are a few companies who will do it for you plus kits to do it yourself.
Another story on carbon frame manufacture (in two parts)...
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/inside-giants-taiwan-frame-factory-part-one-39835/
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/inside-giants-taiwan-frame-factory-part-two-39839/
No specific info about worker protection but Giant seem so thorough on the other details that I'm reasonably confident they're doing that right too.
I don't say that all factories are the same
But he would like to give that impression.
What are the working conditions like in the alu factories he uses?
aracer - Member
Remind me again about his strong aluminium frames?
He acknowledges they had some bad times in the PB article I took it from (from the geonetrob thread) he blamed it on some bad tubing! but tbf the newer commies don't seem to have that problem
Nah, the new ones have a new, unrelated problem.
This is the trouble with large-scale importing though; we simply have no clue. You hope that decent companies use decent factories but how much control does a small company have over that? And how much does a large company bother?
But it's not just carbon, you could have steel frames being built by 12 year olds on dangerous hardware with no ppi and terrible conditions, or not.
This is not new or limited to the bike manufacturing industry. Cheap labour is the foundation of our modern consumer based western economies. Over the long term it is very effective at developing countries and bringing them thier own wealth and prosperity - look at Hong Kong, Taiwan and Korea - they were the worlds sweat shops when I was growing up and they're reaping the rewards now, but unfortunately it comes with a human cost.
Commencal did carbon,in China, so evidently Max's objections weren't that strong.
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I suspect it's better in the big brands factories, there are implications under HSE law in this country if you break it abroad. Not sure how much of this would apply to suppliers and smaller companies who don't have their own factories.
That Giant factory article is interesting. Only had a quick read but it appears to be an okay place to work. They still don't have great masks though- wouldn't fancy breathing in resin/carbon for a living.
wouldn't fancy breathing in resin/carbon for a living.
Without digging out the paperwork, I'm going to stick my neck out and say it's not that bad. At the extreme end in commercial boat building on a production line you've got spray-up (as opposed to lay-up) where the chopped strands are mixed with resin and catalyst and fired out of a spray gun into the mold.
Chopping pre-preg mat is about as safe as you're going to get, there's no dust and the resin isn't particularly volatile.
The most obvious 'danger' is sensitivity to the resins, which isn't life threatening but after prolonged exposure you become allergic to them and develop eczema type symptoms, after which you can no longer work with it. Prevention from that is gloves, long sleeves etc.
Interesting! Thanks thisisnotaspoon.
So trying to build something like this in a garage isn't going to kill me?
I remember a surfboard builder dying young because of the resin and not using a mask.