[Closed] carbon bike repair after crash with car

http://www.swarfcycles.co.uk/carbon-frame-repairs.html

If your LBS says its new frame time then thats that - the insurance has to pay for a new frame. I'd be telling them to do one on the repair and that they either replace or face you in court.

The insurance co needs to put you back into the position you were in before the crash. a repaired frame does not do this as it is worth a lot less and I personally would be loathe to trust it again.

the people in Leatherhead used to be in Dorking - i've seen the work and it's really good (can't see the difference), they will do a lot more than just touch up, they can fix snapped carbon forks and all sorts..

The warranty issue will be to do with Specialized surely, but with the reputation the chaps in Leatherhead have you never know, it may well be OK. That said, i'd still be going for Insurance to pay out in full.

The insurance co needs to put you back into the position you were in before the crash

This. Especially if the bike is less than a year old, replacement as new is reasonable.

If you were in a car that was written off, it would be written off. Not glued back together with no guarantee that the scructure is sound.

You need some representation. Time to threaten to get a claims firm on the case?

If it's been hit by a car I wouldn't trust a repair, I'd go back to the insurers with the recent articles about people killed when carbon forks failed and see if they think it's worth saving realistically a couple of hundred quid.

I can't believe they're even trying it on, you should be claiming for alternative transport, they'd hurry the flip up then.

What's the insurance company out of interest, I'd like to avoid them, and maybe have a word if it's one I'm friendly with.

STOP.
back up here a little. no mention of CTC or a solicitor etc.

this is what they are for, to stop people be mugged by insurance companies. Its not milking the system, its about getting a settlement that will "put you back into the position you were in before the crash." TJ is 100% on that one.

PS, if it was my CF repair company and I even agreed to take the work on, it would come with some very big disclaimers....." we've cosmetically refinished the frame ONLY".

I'd imagine a repaired frame would weigh more, which is one of the factors that justifies the price you'd pay for the frame on top of anything else.

Get lawyered up if you need to.

"put you back into the position you were in before the crash."

In the insurance co's defence, however close to 'new' the bike was pre-crash, it's still not new.

If you were in a car that was written off, it would be written off. Not glued back together with no guarantee that the scructure is sound.

Yes, but if you were in a car that was economically repairable, it wouldn't be written off would it?

Depends what the repairer says, LBS's opinion is a bit like kwikfit, they can swap bits around, but they can't actually repair anything. So of course their arse covering opinion is "we can sell you a new frame". You'd have to go to an accident repair place with people that actually know what they're talking about to get any other answer, which is what the insurance co is asking you to do. No ofence to LBS's, but there's a gulf between a cytech certificate and an MSc in composites or whatever these guys likley have.

You never know the repairer might say "we can't see any repairable damage, but it's taken one heck of a wack and we're not touching it". At the other extreme, they might say "nothing wrong with it other than cosmetic (which TBH is what "deep scratches in the lacquer" is).

This was repaired, and went back down to the southern ocean, bit more than a deep scratch......

[img] [/img]

Thanks for the replies. Pretty much agreed, I deserve a new frame 😀

I have a solicitor, and he has have been pretty good at everything apart from the bike.

Maybe I will end up with a repaired frame to get me riding, and then try and negotiate some kind of compensation on top.

Yes, but if you were in a car that was economically repairable, it wouldn't be written off would it?

Yes it would. Cat D and Cat C.

Both can be repaired, but are written off as far as the original owner is concerned.

No it wouldn't, Cat C and D are 'written off' because 'written off' means they were beyond economic repair (or to cover pedantry, sometimes a fraction of it like 3/4 of the value as repair costs escalate).

If you just bend a few panels they don't write it off and buy you a new car, they send it to the bodyshop. And it wouldn't be 'written off'.

You might be able to repair a cat D yourself and make a profit, but not when paying garage rates for the work, hire cars, etc.

Tinas - sure the insurance company could buy a secondhand undamaged frame of the same vintage then pay for the rebuild of the bike - but that is not possible realistically is it?

Tinas - sure the insurance company could buy a secondhand undamaged frame of the same vintage then pay for the rebuild of the bike - but that is not possible realistically is it?

They also wouldn't use second hand parts to repair a car

Working in insurance, that is pretty rare, 99% of the time, the cost of carbon repair would often be up there with the cost of the frame, was it a particularly expensive frame?

My argument would be that when you repair a car, it does not really affect the value of the vehicle with most cars, you replace a wing or similar panel with a new one, then no harm done (different with expensive or classic cars).

In this instance, having a carbon frame repaired instead of replaced, severely affects any resale value, if anyone would touch it all.

I would ask that your solicitors argue Diminution (basically that following repair the item is worth less than it would of been had the accident not taken place)

[quote=servo ]Anyway, they now want me to take it the repair place which I can do (and pay my mileage). It also looks like they are NOT going to pay for the bike until the whole claim is submitted (including personal injury).

I can understand them wanting it repaired or at least inspected, but this is cheeky as ****!

Sure yes allow me to courier it there personally as my time has no value.

I think TINAS has a good point, the car analogy is flawed, they're not proposing to replace with second hand bits or repair with second hand bits, that's irrelevant. They're seeking an economic repair. Just as you would with a car. If the repair cost comes back as equivalent to the value of the frame then it may be a "Cat D" write off and a new frame sourced.

The place in Leatherhead are fantastic, but prices are high, I imagine a repair would be £500+ straight off. More if resprays are involved.

It's unusual, and you'd have to get the warranty angle covered though certainly.

They need to consider cost of repairs and diminution in market value, if they want to go down the repair route. I wouldn't buy a second hand repaired carbon frame.

If the don't play ball, your injury compensation and other out of pocket expenses might buy something nice.

If they don't pull their finger out, they'll be paying for a cancelled cycling holiday!

My Dad is in this position after being cut up by Stevie Wonder.

Goodbye 3 month old bike.

Bike was quoted a write off by a LBS so either new bike or more expensively a rebuild with new parts and labour.

Still waiting for their reply even after they admitted liability.

Specialized have an assisted purchase scheme. Which if you are the original owner you can get a new frame much cheaper than normal if yours is broken and not a warranty issue. this may be then a price that the insurance are happy with.

You will have to go back through a Spesh dealer and often easier if it's the shop that sold
It to you

Specialized assisted purchase not available for insurance claims

You are being mugged. If they are insisting on it going somewhere for inspection it's their problem to get it there.

If it gets repaired then you need the warranty covered in writing otherwise it's another loss and needs to be quantified

In terms of delay, I would advise them that if not speedily settled then you'll hire a bike for the period until settlement and enclose quote from the LBS

I have to wonder if insurance companies are dealing with more damaged carbon ego-sleds these days and hence have decided on a "repair rather than replace" policy, It's going to benefit their margins after all...

In the OP's position I would be expecting a replacement frame/bike, however I can appreciate that the sort of prevarication and slowing down of the process that they seem to be throwing in the way might tempt you to take the repair option just to get you back out on a working bike...

The question isn't actually whether a repair is safe or makes the bike usable again, it's whether it returns you to your pre-incident circumstances, including the value of your bike and any warranties or guarantees you would have had available, from the sounds of it what is being offered simply doesn't...

cookeaa - Member
I have to wonder if insurance companies are dealing with more damaged carbon ego-sleds these days and hence have decided on a "repair rather than replace" policy, It's going to benefit their margins after all...

Yeah I was thinking that too. The other issue of resale value is tricky too. In the car analogy the new buyer may go looking but if well repaired they'd never know or ever be able to tell there's been an issue. If a bike is repaired in a way that returns it to its original state (plus some grams of carbon) is it actually an issue? Warranty being null and void should certainly be accounted for though

If you need an expert witness statement regarding carbon fibre in support of needing a new frame then give me a shout. I'll do a basic one FOC unless the solicitor wants something more involved and will bill it to the insurance anyway.

Just to add, this wouldnt be me simply making something up to get the OP a new frame it would be based on:

1. RTC involving a car
2. Complete lack of any knowledge of what happened to the bike in the event meaning there are a lot of questions.
3. Level of injuries to rider which could be just "unfortunate" from an awkward landing but could also point to it being a hell of a thump.
4. Damage to head tube and top tube (would like/need to see myself) might be slight but they are key frame elements.
5. There could also be invisible damage from indirect impact of attached parts that hit the car/road hard.

This all has implications on what would need to be inspected to be SURE it was not damaged and that is not cheap. Then you have the repair and what is acceptable as being strong enough and cosmetically fine is not the same as being back to 100% in every aspect which is what the OP is entitled to. It wasnt him stacking it into a lampost by accident.

I still advocate that repairs to known damage is fine, especially if you accept it may not be quite the same stiffness, or if you can get the layup and match it then you can get pretty damn close. So if you smash a chainstay (for example) of your carbon MTB during a spill onto rocks then get that bit fixed and don't worry.

Well it's probably quite a straight forward sum, a new tarmac pro frame? Is what ~£2k? A whole replacement bike? ~3.6k?

So even if the frame repair runs to ~£1k plus some replacement components, they're quids in and they simply ignore the value of warranty and the lost "residual value" of a pristine vs repaired bicycle frame, because, well you know, it's nothing important like a car is it...

So this sort of policy applied to a just a few "high value cases" could save and insurance company tens of thousands of pounds...

Seems like they're pissing the OP about hoping that his exasperation will eventually let them wriggle out of a couple of grands worth of costs...

Next step OP, if your solicitor hasn't suggested it might be to start talking to the financial ombudsman? 10 months past the incident, liability accepted, and you are still awaiting a satisfactory resolution...

To an insurance company a grand or two on a fairly uncommon claim is fupp all. I'm dealing with a case at the moment that just the court costs are £125,000 already and there's been no actual damages paid, I'd be very interested to know what insurer it is, especially as trying to place a chain of bike shops is a pita because underwriters are scared that someone might not do up a quick release and hurt themselves.

Boils my piss insurance does.

As stated the warranty is part of the value ofnthe frame. Its one of the reasons for buying from Specialized. Loss of warranty is sufficient reason to insist on replacement.

Hmm.. Can't help thinking reading this thread that the other party's insurance company is simply doing their job...for the other party.

Yet another very good reason to be have some form of insurance. Eg [url= http://www.cyclinguk.org/insurance ]Cycling UK legal cover[/url]

British cycling does something very similar.

I think the OP is being screwed over becasue their solicitor isn't being proactive enough and they are being fobbed off by the other party's solicitor . Everyone I know who has used CTC/Cycling Uk has had very quick and positive results, defo new bike frame/bike required as per the cycling shops view. Personal injury claim would also be factored in too.

Hi all, Adrian from Swarf here... Thought I'd add my thoughts, please note this is just my (super cautious) view and I can't comment for any of the other repair options..

Carbon repairs is a tricky one for me, I turn away repairs if I'm in any way uncomfortable with either the damage, or how it has occurred. In this case being hit by a car which resulted in serious injury would be one I'd immediately turn away, there could be all sorts of hidden issues.

As far as I am aware, there is only one guy doing repairs with ultra sonic scanning kit (Raoul at Luescher Tekinik in Oz). He's the only guy who can fully understand the extent of the damage. For the rest of the repair guys we can get a fair understanding using various methods, but there is always an element of the unknown. There is also the unknown of the exact layup of the original frame and the materials used... I don't offer any repair warranty for this exact reason, how can I confidently say if a repair is going to last x years when I don't fully understand what I've actually worked on!

So from a small time bike builder who understands carbon composite frames better than most, I'd definitely turn this repair away. If it were me I'd be looking for a new frame from the insurance.... If it was a car body panel it'd immediately be replaced, and that's just a cosmetic item, you should expect the same for a frame!

Cheers

A

Would you have faith in a repaired carbon frame after a car crash, actively hurtling down your local hill in your top gear, perhaps doing ~40mph when you catch a pothole?

I know I wouldn't! 😯

I was going to say, before bedfo posted, that how would you know the true extent of the invisible damage without carrying out ultrasonic testing? Otherwise you're going to be going be visible damage only, surely?

You will probably have legal assistance on your home policy

Right lots of good info here, especially about carbon repair and to think about.

I had an accident a few years ago and British Cycling (I am a member) were not very good and tried to give up but I managed to get a payout in the end with not much help from them.

Cycling UK and BC just use a legal company. Think it's Slater and Gordon and Leigh Day.

This time, I chose a cycling solicitor that seems to be on ball for the personal injury, but seems a bit slow on the cycle side.

I agree with some of the posts above that the insurance companies has woken up to the fact that a many thousand pound carbon bike could be repaired and save them a fortune. I guess the carbon bike repair companies have been promoting themselves this way. Catching up with car repairs I suppose.

Across the road from where I work is a huge motorbike insurance repair place and apparently they are quick to write off high performance bikes due to cosmetic damage and potential structural problems. Sounds just like my bike!

So, I have got legal representation, but it does seem that they don't want to pay out until the whole lot is settled.

I have had some money in advance but that went on travel expenses, new cycling kit etc. Even if my frame is repaired I will still need £500 to fix the rest of the bike.

The insurance company name starts with AG 😕

New frame is £1800 if I can get one. They were selling them off in the Summer for £1200 but they missed the boat on that one.

As far as I am aware, there is only one guy doing repairs with ultra sonic scanning kit (Raoul at Luescher Tekinik in Oz). He's the only guy who can fully understand the extent of the damage

Well now you can be aware there's 3 and two of them do submit reports on mechanical failures in composites

If it was a car body panel it'd immediately be replaced, and that's just a cosmetic item, you should expect the same for a frame!

I think this is a good point too - a wing or other panel on the car is cosmetic. If you'd bent the chassis you would be thinking very hard about repairing. You would be ending up with essentially a "cut and shut" if you repaired a car with structural damage, which is rightly looked upon as a bit dodgy.

I have some knowledge of composites from work (but not really practical), and essentially you can get a good strong repair, but it will be heavier and/or less stiff. And even then, it will only be repaired where the damage is visible, from that sort of impact there could quite feasibly be a significant amount of damage that is not readily visible, and in the industries I have worked in even ultrasonic testing isn't looked upon as a reliable inspection technique on composites.

[b]Raoul at Luescher Tekinik in Oz[/b]

this guy knows the score with carbon frame repair, and why it often should not be undertaken, especially without specialist equipment which includes NDT, specific abrasives and cleaning products

without access to the layup schedule and the same fibre and resin, you cannot do an effective repair without some question of compromise. Brands like Giant for example make their own cloth and resin in house and will not be selling any to repair shops.

if a carbon repair shop tells you it will be "stronger than new" that is a red flag - the repair should return the structure to near its original state otherwise you end up overloading other areas. I have had numerous official conversations on crash replacement / damage with many brands over the years, and none would publicly advise carbon repair.

I do about 4-5 RTC assessments per week in London at the moment. We'd never advise anyone to get the frame repaired, most insurers do not want the liability of paying for a carbon repair to then have a failure later on. Of course, carbon repair shops have insurance...

New frame. Or new bike - whichever is more affordable for the insurer

I had a similar situation and I ask the insurer to confirm that they were prepared to warranty the frame for the rest of it's lifetime, i.e match the original warranty. I also asked that if they repaired it and it failed what mechanism would I follow to sue them. This resulted in a new bike 🙂 HTH

To an insurance company a grand or two on a fairly uncommon claim is fupp all

no, its not, because they will fight and block for every penny. I've copy and pasted a summary of my claim which I posted on club FB page below, but to highlight how tight they are they argued a £15 sportif entry fee on the grounds my period of sick leave had run out the Friday so surely I could ride 100 miles on Sunday. They accepted the bike was a write-off but argued some of the parts would be re-usable and have value, and ignored the fact that whilst the bike was 18 months old, the wheels were 4 weeks old.

Thought I'd post a brief summary of my experience of claiming via British Cycling legal support for members' future reference. Knocked off my bike in June, driver admitted liability and was prosecuted so no issues there. I was initially only after my bike and kit being replaced, but her insurer blanked me (standard practice to dissuade claims) so I ended up going to BC who referred me to Leigh Day (LD), who called me back within an hour of me calling BC. As I ended up off work for a month that passed LD's threshold for pursuing a personal injury (PI) claim so I also had a medical at a local doctor agreed by both parties. We completed a claim form with damage photos, receipts (including a 'write off' valuation by a bike shop) and even just web links to replacements when I had no receipt, and they submitted the claim to her insurer. LD gave me a ballpark PI figure to expect based on experience, guidance tables etc. Her insurer made a first offer which was pretty close to what I'd expected, at the higher end of the P.I, but as far as I and the bike shop valuation was concerned undervalued the bike. LD (with my agreement) rejected the offer and proposed a counter offer. Her insurer declined that and stood by their first offer. So LD began court proceedings. At that point the insurer has to pay out their original offer, so from my perspective it's a win-win; I've already got that money regardless of the court hearing.

Well, the hearing was Wednesday, and LD just emailed me to say to expect a cheque for another £500. The judge has upped the P.I to the very top of the range I was given, and increased the bike valuation to that given by the shop that wrote it off. The total payout is pretty much bang on what LD initially proposed and is also higher than the counter offer we made (and now throw in all the legal fees her insurer has incurred...)

Their legal fees would have been more than the extra we were claiming and were ultimately awarded.

So I'd be taking legal advice, from free cover provided by BC/CTC/home insurance if applicable, and letting them fight with the insurance on a combined personal injury/losses claim including a new bike.

When I phoned her insurer I'd have taken £650 for a new bike and kit. They ended up paying out nearly £3.5K. Plus probably the same again in legal fees.

It is all very well saying you can pick up some CF and use ultrasound to inspect it but to get to that point takes £1000's of work on samples of the SAME material made in a comparable process with known defects. Composite is not the same as metal.

If the insurance co's are faced with someone saying "we can save you X thousand £ by repairing these expensive play things that are costing you lots of money" then they are going to listen. It then takes someone who knows what they are talking about to explain to them that is not right. They probably then wont listen until a solicitor (who costs even more) turns around and says "yeah if it breaks again and its the repair to blame and they get hurt/die then you are in trouble".

When I claimed for a new bike following a crash on my insurance policy, they couldn't have been more helpful. I even asked for the old written off bike and offered to pay for it, but they declined payment. Of course they are chasing the £4K from the insured driver involved in the accident.

If you are in the same position, this might be a better course of attack. Claim new for old, then let your own insurance company fight it - the costs will soon escalate. I think the OP's position is strong on this and the car driver's company is trying it on. I'd also second renting a road bike for the period, that would instantly negate any savings of repair! You are entitled to be put back in the same position that you were before the accident. Simple as that.

@andyl

I think from the 100+ RTC assessments I did last season, only 1 tried to go the carbon repair route with the motorists insurer insisting it was suitable...we put them onto the distributor's warranty department. Customer got a new bike...

Re. "stronger than original" this might set alarm bells ringing, and could cause problems if not done right, but can be done in such a way that it doesn't compromise the remaining parts of the frame (essentially by gradually reducing the number of repair plies, which is a good idea anyway).

we put them onto the distributor's warranty department. Customer got a new bike...

Good suggestion.

They should be willing to help educate the insurer, if there's a strong likelihood of a sale out of it.

we put them onto the distributor's warranty department. Customer got a new bike...
Good suggestion.

They should be willing to help educate the insurer, if there's a strong likelihood of a sale out of it.

I agree that is a good idea. They keep asking for details of the warranty so Specialized can explain it to them.

Your bike is built under pressure and bagged from the inside to squeeze out any air. Any repair will just be a wrap around and fill. it might look the same but the construction in none continuous, so much weaker, and won't be the same grade of carbon. I wouldn't touch a critical tube repair on a bike from any repairer who can't do the repair at the original frame manufacturing temp, with the same resin system and at the same pressure. It's no better than putting bondo on a car. - test results from repaired frames show this.

Actually, I'm in a similar situation myself, just about to go to court over a RTA where I was hit from behind by a car on a roundabout as the driver attempted to turn across two lanes to exit the roundabout. Suffice to say i'll not be taking a repair to my made to measure italian road frame with less than 1000 miles on it.

Well, my bike is back and looks great 8)

First I paid for Healthcheck Level 2

http://carbonbikerepair.co.uk/#healthcheck

Then I received a full report that gave the frame a clean bill of health and a quote to refinish the frame and forks and replace the damaged shifters etc.

Quote was very detailed and enough to get the driver's insurance company to immediately forward a cheque for the full amount including the healthcheck.

2 weeks later and the bike is finished and it looks as good as new.

Went out for my longest ride of the past 12 months (65 miles) and it was great to ride a light bike again 🙂

Dont repair a carbon frame, a mate had a carbon fork fail and broke her back in an accident. Had to go to court for damages so well rewarded but still has no flex in lower back. Just not worth it, i think she was lucky

Dont repair a carbon frame, a mate had a carbon fork fail and broke her back in an accident.

One that had been repaired?