[Closed] Can't concentrate after morning/lunch HIIT - low blood sugar?

Take something in during the workout? You don't get the same insulin reaction then I think and is unlikely to make a difference to your weight loss. Presumably you have rest intervals?

Either CLif Bloks or High5 drinks for example.

Or more natural stuff would be dates or bananas.

I do a 6.45am workout twice a week (one SS and one VO2 max) and do this with nothing before hand and get the work done and don't struggle after. YOu will still get a calorie deficit with that level of intake and good interval session and then make more of a deficit through the rest of the day.

Presumably you have rest intervals?

Yeah, all very standard sessions with recovery between sets.

I do a 6.45am workout twice a week (one SS and one VO2 max) and do this with nothing before hand and get the work done and don’t struggle after.

Do you fuel during or is that all fasted? I do recognise what you say about being able to fuel AND maintain a deficit, it's the obvious thing to try I guess

Was looking for this:

https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/nutrition-plans-for-training-and-nourishing-with-amber-pierce/

There are a lot of decent blogs on the TrainerRoad site but a lot of it is trial and error after reading their advice to find what works for you.

Sorry I should have made it clearer - I fuel during the workout so at the moment I take a clif blok or two in each interval depending what the session is. I did used to do High5 drink - but that did not produce nice smells for the rest of the day (a different problem I guess) so the Clif Bloks seem to work better for me.

Nice, that's a great article, thanks.

Also, I scored one of those £4.99 boxes of Clif Bloks from the PSA on the forum before Christmas, so I've got plenty spare for my workouts 😎

The TR podcasts regularly state not to diet on the bike and that you should fuel all workouts (obviously most of theirs are 1hr+).

I'd definitely grab some carbs after the workout, I usually have noodles after my midday workouts.

I'm not one for drinking masses of fluid on the bike but I aim for 750ml to 1 litre per hour, that's when it's cold and with a mahoosive air blaster.

Also over-unders aren't HIIT 😉

The TR podcasts regularly state not to diet on the bike and that you should fuel all workouts (obviously most of theirs are 1hr+).

Yep, I think I'm destined to keep making this mistake, I knew not to 'diet' on the bike but also thought that fuelling anything up to an hour was still excessive. However, if it improves the workout and lets me get on with some work afterwards then I'll go with whatever works!

Also over-unders aren’t HIIT

What's the formal definition of HIIT? I've seen 'close to maximum' in which case I'm nowhere near, but I've also seen 'above FTP' in which case my thresholds, over-unders and 30/15s are all 'high intensity'...

Obvious answer is low blood sugar I guess but I didn’t think you needed to fuel shorter workouts all that much (plus am trying to drop a few kg!)

Oof. Can of worms here.

There are various techniques to weight loss, using different strategies. HIIT is beneficial to weight loss (IIRC) by creating changes in hormones that can change your body composition, however it is not necessarily compatible with calorie restriction, depending on your body. It will deplete your muscle glycogen stores, and if you aren't eating much they won't replenish, and having low glycogen stores may create conditions in your body that are not conducive to weight loss. For me, if I ride too hard and don't fuel enough then my background stress level increases - I think this is cortisol - and that inhibits weight loss. So I end up feeling terrible and when I try to ride hard I just can't produce as much power. And because my muscles aren't working as hard I don't get the benefits.

What works for me is carb supplementation during and after riding - although not during a short session like HIIT. I've had a lot of success with Zwift crit races, which are effectively VO2 max type sessions that are aerobically demanding without stressing the muscles too much. I find this much easier than the strength based higher power intervals and when they are half an hour long the overall stress on my body is much less than even a 2 hour z3 ride, based on how long it takes me to recover.

In short, I think you need to be trading off time spent at higher intensities against the overall stress on your system. And not eating enough really inhibits recovery which in turn promotes physical stress.

So, after your HIIT you could try taking a small amount (start with 20g) of high GI carbs immediately after your workout, whilst sticking to low GI carbs the rest of the time. You shoud find this makes you feel much better. You will have to do it like that for a week or two to see if you lose weight. High GI carbs are bad, generally, but during and imediately after a workout they are good because the insulin that gets generated by your pancreas helps the glucose get to your cells as fast as possible which speeds up recovery - google for 'glycogen window'.

What’s the formal definition of HIIT? I’ve seen ‘close to maximum’ in which case I’m nowhere near, but I’ve also seen ‘above FTP’ in which case my thresholds, over-unders and 30/15s are all ‘high intensity’…

HIIT specifically needs to be absolute max flat out nearly puking. Otherwise you don't get the hormonal response. And that's why it's so short - 8 lots of 20 seconds or whatever it is. If you keep going (or aren't properly fuelled) then your legs can't go at their max pace and you aren't really doing HIIT. You are still doing work of course but it's not getting the same physiological response. For the same reason you cannot do them during some other ride e.g. a commute. I mean you can, but you aren't getting the desired response - you may get some other response though.

Over-unders either side of your FTP train your VO2 max, IIRC.

Lol, maybe I should just start drinking recovery shakes again, that was my favourite part of any workout anyway and I still have half a tub of ReGo beneath the sink.

I think I've been guilty of missing out carbs after workouts, thinking back I've typically been eating soup with maybe a side of chicken breast. Perhaps for simplicity/laziness I just substitute a recovery shake for 'lunch' on workout days, make sure I'm getting the right stuff straight away. Also means I don't end up taking a 2.5hr lunch break for workout + shower + lunch...

Over-unders either side of your FTP train your VO2 max, IIRC.

Fair enough, I read a roadcyclinguk article which just talked about high intensity being anything over FTP, although granted for the rest of the article they only refer to the max effort until you puke type workout. I'll stick with VO2 max I think...

HIIT efforts are very short and high power, the two go hand in hand really. RPE of 8 or 9 on a scale of 10, which equates to the top end of VO2max and upwards so 120% of FTP.

Over-unders are a cruel form of threshold (95% - 105% of FTP) work aimed at gently flooding your muscles then giving you not quite enough time to recover.

Here's a link to Coggan's standard training power levels - https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/power-training-levels/

HIIT and associated terms like Tabata got taken on as the latest thing by the fitness gurus then drastically watered down when they realised the vast majority of people couldn't follow the correct protocol. I've seen reports that even Olympic track cyclists struggle to correctly complete Tabata workouts, they are really hard.

Ah, nice, in that case my 30/15s are HIIT, I'm sitting at 120% - 130%.

Slight digression from my own thread, but I'm swithering between doing over-unders or just thresholds, e.g. is it better to do 4x8 @ just over FTP, or 4 blocks of over unders at slightly higher intensity for the overs?

Feels like the total 'work' of the 4x8min would be higher but it feels like over/unders are more 'real-life'.

There's a Dylan Johnson video on the effectiveness of varying interval length that might be worth checking out.

Personally I'm not sure which of steady state vs over-unders would be better. I think both will target the same systems but the over-unders will be aiming at improving lactate clearance. Might depend on what your aim is. As you say, over-unders are closer to what you'd find out on the road/trail but if you were a TTer then steady state might be better. I searched Dylan Johnson's YouTube channel for over-unders and this was the only hit:

The over-under workouts I've done (all from Trainerroad) have been total intervals of 9 - 12 minutes with inner blocks of 2mins under, 1 min over or 1min under, 2 mins over for harder sessions. Under in this case is 95% FTP and over is 105%. Looking through TRs workouts and training plans they do have workouts with long (up to 15min) supra-threshold intervals at 102-105% but within the plans themselves the longest of this type of interval is around 7 minutes and most of these are in the "Speciality" phase, i.e. when you are targeting your fitness to a specific event. Within their Base and Build phases there isn't much steady state in the 105-110% range, there's a few at 102% which for me on a "dumb" trainer is all but indistinguishable from actual FTP though I'm sure it is actually just that little bit harder!

I suspect that as with a lot of training advice you can find studies and plans to back up/justify most strategies.

A digression of my own. I restarted TR fifteen months ago and because of lockdown I actually went through a full Base -> Build -> Speciality cycle because, well just because. I'd no events to aim towards so I wanted to see how I dealt with it all. I then decided to try their Plan Builder automated wizard system and it just so happens that I'm back doing the same workouts to within a day as I was this time last year so it's really easy to compare how I'm doing. It definitely wasn't "planned" to happen like this. I've seen a 13% rise in FTP which given that I'm aerobically inclined and was generally "fit" to begin with is pretty decent. 13% means that I'm doing threshold workouts that a year ago would have been VO2max, that's significant.

I'm now debating, with myself, whether to do more polarised training as the high end stuff is really my weak point - common in older riders like myself partly because historical data/studies have highlighted it and it's thus become somewhat self-fulfilling. Some of the workouts in the Speciality phase were really tough:

The format is 1 minute at 85% FTP plus a 1-minute ramp to 95% FTP. Then, 1 minute at 95% FTP is followed by a 30-second ramp to 105% FTP where you'll stay for 1 minute before surging to 130% FTP over the next 30 seconds.

The final kick includes 30 seconds at 130% FTP and a 30-second ramp to 150% FTP.

That's basically a Ramp Test! And you did it, or tried to, four times!

Apologies for the ramble.

Apologies for the ramble

Not at all, I'm interested in all of it, I keep meaning to start one big omni 'training chat' thread but then realise it will be monopolised by Zwifters and people with smart turbos so would be mostly irrelevant to me 😀

The over-under workouts I’ve done (all from Trainerroad) have been total intervals of 9 – 12 minutes with inner blocks of 2mins under, 1 min over or 1min under, 2 mins over for harder sessions. Under in this case is 95% FTP and over is 105%. Looking through TRs workouts and training plans they do have workouts with long (up to 15min) supra-threshold intervals at 102-105% but within the plans themselves the longest of this type of interval is around 7 minutes and most of these are in the “Speciality” phase, i.e. when you are targeting your fitness to a specific event. Within their Base and Build phases there isn’t much steady state in the 105-110% range, there’s a few at 102% which for me on a “dumb” trainer is all but indistinguishable from actual FTP though I’m sure it is actually just that little bit harder!

Great, those ranges and workouts are really similar to what I've picked up elsewhere (GCN or wattkg.com mostly). In this instance, I'd be training for long road climbs, so I guess the longer steady state stuff is more 'specialist', and I might as well use over-unders for now and progress towards the steady state stuff later.

Meantime my over-unders are 3x12min @ 1min 110%, 2min 95%. The last set is usually a bit ragged though so I probably need to reduce the 110% a smidge.

The format is 1 minute at 85% FTP plus a 1-minute ramp to 95% FTP. Then, 1 minute at 95% FTP is followed by a 30-second ramp to 105% FTP where you’ll stay for 1 minute before surging to 130% FTP over the next 30 seconds.

The final kick includes 30 seconds at 130% FTP and a 30-second ramp to 150% FTP.

So am I reading that as

1 min @ 85%
1 minute @ 95%
30 sec @ 105%
30 sec @ 130%
30 sec @ 150%?

Sounded achievable until I saw the 30 sec @ 150%...

The interval wasn't "stepped" in that way, so 1 min at 85%, 1 minute ramp from 85% to 95%, 1 min at 95%, 30s ramp from 95% to 105%, 1min at 105%, 30s ramp from 105% to 130%, 30s at 130%, 30s ramp from 130% to 150%. A total of 6 minutes. 6 minutes rest then repeat.

That particular group of workouts seem aimed at criterium sprints where they are building on ever higher output. Like I said, it was four ramp tests in a row!!!

No harm in reducing the intensity for the last set of your over-unders if it lets you complete the workout. Generally you want to be reasonably confident you can complete the last set in a workout such that you have to dig in to do it.

A training mega thread would be useful (in an uber geeky way!). Don't worry I'm on a dumb trainer as well.

A training thread sounds like a good idea! I am always interested to discuss training and myself and whitestone always seem to jump onto threads like these it seems! I would worry about zwifters etc it is separate from that and always good to learn from each other.

I really enjoy self coaching and experimenting with stuf and happy to understand others experiences.

Right, will think up a new daft question and use it to kick off a mega-thread. See you both on the there lol 😀

Just created the thread!

I think I’ve been guilty of missing out carbs after workouts

Yeah don't do this. This time last year I did three months of 30 or more hours riding, z2/3. That's much more than I normally do. It was hard, and I tried to keep the carb intake as low as I could. I lost NO weight at all, and I felt shit all the time. Dog tired and weary. Climbing stairs made my legs ache.

In Sept I started Zwifting with crit races, and carb supplementing as per the iDiet rules whilst being strict at other times, and I started losign weight and gaining FTP. Then after a couple of weeks I was less strict (a few more biscuits!) and continued losing weight and gaining FTP. Basically you need the right amounts of carbs at the right times, otherwise you get too tired and your output goes down.

I find that simply eating carbs with your meal instead of supplementing is less effective. You recover less well (cos you miss the optimum window) and you stay feeling under-fueled and tired for longer, so you end up eating more anyway. Carb supplementing at the right times makes it much easier (for me at least) to stick to lower carbs the rest of the time. And if I am riding nearly every day, then after a while it stops being critical because my glycogen is always low so whatever I eat just goes to rebuilding those, rather than becoming fat.