Can someone explain curly bar bike genres to an idiot (me)?

Is there such a thing as a light, durable, racey curly barred bike that is actually not terrifying off road?

So the weirdos on here say.

But no. They're poopy

But no. They’re poopy

+1

They’re only terrifying when you compare them to a modern (frankly, excellent) mtb.
An alternative view might be that they make really tame terrain quite exciting.
Horses for courses innit.

Glad it's not just me

An alternative view might be that they make really tame terrain quite exciting

That's different to making it fun though. Exciting through fear of crashing isn't exactly what I'm wanting from a bimble around.

An alternative view might be that they make really tame terrain quite exciting.

My only bike at the moment is a rigid SS, built around a 66 degree HTA, wheelbase in excess of 1200mm and reach around 470mm for my 5'9" height. I am in no way anything close to a rad endurbro but that bike can still feel like a twitchy XC bike around twisty singletrack, whilst also be damned fun just about anywhere. Maybe this has spoilt me in the "making the trails come alive" stakes without the level of terror I felt on that gravel bike

This is the thread I’ve been waiting for!

Is there such a thing as a light, durable, racey curly barred bike that is actually not terrifying off road?

Not that I can see.
I’ve had a FreeRanger since April & have done about 1200 miles of varying terrain on it.
It’s fast, but not on ‘proper’ off-road. It’s not even comfortable, after 20 miles my arms are aching whereas this has never occurred in 32 years of riding MTB’s.
How anyone can say that control is good on the drops while descending is beyond me. If that was the case someone should tell Danny Hart & all the other DH crew.
Let me know if you find the bike in question.

Gravel bikes are not MTB's, and, imo, should not be used for mtbing. Gravel bikes are for, well, gravel roads, or as there are a lot of them in the UK, normal no techy bridleways, canal tow paths and other light off road routes where larger tyres make it more comfortable and racier geo, make it faster.

I've just got a Cotic Cascade cos I wanted something a bit beefier, but my London road before was good and fast off road too. It did suffer from toe overlap though, which the cotic doesn't.

Drop bars also have more places to put your hands than flat bars.

Saying all that, I may well try the Cascade with some swept back flat bars like the on one OG's at some point.

I also don't get why road bikes in general have to be so short and twitchy when their job is by and large going very fast in straight or nearly straight lines. Road bike geometry seems even more backwards than the XC bike market a few years ago and even that is slow to change for goodness knows what reason. Feel twitchy and near death experiences = racey fast???

How use to drop bars are you?

But basically yes it’s terrifying. Well not terrifying for me but I know what you mean

To me the fast handling is the whole point. On my MTB riding from home I can basically just pedal and go round the odd corner. On my gravel bike I’m swerving round roots etc.

They're total bum on anything properly offroad, but they're good fun for bimbling around on mixed surfaces or doing bigger distances because they're more closely related to road bikes. The niche they occupy is fairly small IMO My kinesis is more capable than my old topstone, but still nowhere near any sort of MTB for riding down stuff.

For me it works better as a companion to my enduro bike than a hardtail or hybrid because it opens up a type of riding I wouldn't normally do. For context, don't have or really want a roadbike, but being able to zip along roads at a decent rate to get to more interesting places is a useful thing.

Is there such a thing as a light, durable, racey, curly barred bike that is actually not terrifying off road?

I think it depends on when you got into mtb. I was racing XC 30 years ago, on mtbs less capable off road than a modern gravel bike.

Drop bars also have more places to put your hands than flat bars.

This was part of what got me on to trying gravel bikes. I had the vision of a MTB with a little less technical ability but more hand position variation to increase long distance comfort.

In reality, I believe a well designed rigid 29er MTB with Conti 2.2 Racekings will be faster than just about any curly bar bike off road, even tow paths and long forest roads. If you need variation in hand positions and want to be more aero then fit some aero bars...

... which is what I guess most of the fastest Tour Divide style bikes end up being.

Toe overlap? On a gravel bike?
Don't even have any on my oldschool geo 51cm CX bike...

No problem with drop bars and spend a reasonable time on road bikes.

Started MTB around 20 years ago where a Marin Mount Vision was an absolute revelation to how fast you could go off road 🙂

I think the conclusion I'm coming to is a "gravel" bike is a trendy road bike for UK churned up roads and the occasional cautious off road shortcut which you wouldn't do on a full on road bike, rather than a more varied hand position MTB for longer less technical rides which was my original thought.

Good to hear I am not too far wide of the mark on my first impressions 🙂

I love mine. I've had quite a few of them too. Currently on a Pipedream Alice and it's awesomne. Perfect for what I need, mixture of tame trails, pootling around the countryside and canals, covers it all.

I don't really understand why folk compare the grave bike to a mtb, it's completely different. It's just a bike that bridges the gap in the market. I don't need an mtb for what I ride or a road bike, a cx bike is to racey and not enough tyre clearance. This bike does exactly what I need it to.

If your getting toe overlap then that's just a wrong size bike for you. As for it being terrifying to ride off-road, what terrain are you riding? Everything I ride isn't technical (due to location and skillset) and no matter what mtb I ride it always feels dull and boring to ride, my gravel/adventure bike makes "the trails come alive" (as Giant would once say) I love riding mine offroad, proper makes me grin and enjoy cycling again. But they're not for everyone, The Enigma is more of a road biased gravel bike I would say, same with the dales. Perhaps you should try the Nukeproof, Ragley or NS Rag. That might offer you a more confident ride that you could get on with.

even tow paths and long forest roads.

Nah, cross and gravel bikes are chunks faster than MTBs on trails like that.

the best gravel bike ever is a nice lightweight 100mm forked hardtail.............FACT

Even gravel double track was terrifying and I struggled to get any speed up for fear of all things bad. This is with the context of enjoying a road bike on the road and bombing around on a rigid SS which isn't exactly forgiving off road either.

I would agree that the average MTB very much dulls a lot of the rides I would naturally do. I put a 100mm SID on my rigid SS and hated it. I think in my SS, I may have just found the balance of "making the trails come alive" and not having too many 20p/ 50p moments than I'd ideally like which makes bouncier MTBs and twitchier gravel bikes feel a bit pointless

the best gravel bike ever is a nice lightweight 100mm forked hardtail………….FACT

Mrs says I can get one. 🤔😜

I can't explain it, but you can pry the curly bars (and steep roadie geometry) out of my cold dead hands 😎

But then, I don't suffer for trying to ride MTB trails on my gravel bike. Fast, rocky, slippy yes, but fast handling helps here and weight over the front isn't necessarily a hindrance. But steep, techy or requiring lots of braking? Give me a 29er with big monkey-wide flat bars please 😎

Nah, cross and gravel bikes are chunks faster than MTBs on trails like that.

the best gravel bike ever is a nice lightweight 100mm forked hardtail………….FACT

Going back to my Tour Divide example, some people fit aero bars to MTBs and some people bulk up gravel style bikes and as far as I recall, the MTB (and of course rider) is most often fastest. Or the fastest guys and girls choose the MTB depending how you look at it. That is obviously an extreme event but probably a good illustration of what gravel bikes are sold as (long distance in comfort and speed), but not really being that good at IMO

esselgruntfuttock
Free Member
the best gravel bike ever is a nice lightweight 100mm forked hardtail………….FACT

Mrs says I can get one. 🤔😜

specialized rockhopper elite.

I think the conclusion I’m coming to is a “gravel” bike is a trendy road bike for UK churned up roads and the occasional cautious off road shortcut which you wouldn’t do on a full on road bike, rather than a more varied hand position MTB for longer less technical rides which was my original thought.

I'd pretty much agree with that.
Took me a fair bit longer and more bike experiments to come to that conclusion though!

I came to the same conclusion back when CX bikes as quiver killers were all the rage. Initially quite fun but eventually realised that they didn't do anything particularly satisfactorily, bar CX races (even then cantis and drop bar levers were terrible). My Scandal with a 100mm fork was a better bike by a mile.

I'd still buy a gravel bike but it'd be as a tourer alternative. Indeed I have a charge plug built as a commuter/winter type thing.

The bars thing is interesting though. There was a great article written many years ago, possibly on mtbr, maybe by Shiggy(?), on drop bars and use off road. IME the more alt or sweep the bar has the less control you have but more comfort,this is negated if the drops are below where you would have a flat bar.

When you say 'good off road' what do you mean? They're not for singletrack or anything steep or interesting. They are for covering ground on fire roads, vehicle tracks and the like. You CAN ride singletrack or technical things on them if you want, but that's done by people who just want the challenge. They're not actually good at it.

I ride a steep angled rigid MTB with relatively narrow flat bars but big tyres. For me this is the best of all worlds, because it can properly MTB albeit slower than a suspension bike, but it is still great on road and fire road. A long local ride for me might involve ten miles of road, some fire road, a rock strewn gulley climb, a track across the moors, a technical descent through a forest and ten road miles home. Such rides are a chore on a trail bike, but the technical singletrack is not so good on a gravel style bike. It also has MTB gears which many gravel bikes don't. This is important on very steep loose terrain.

The stuff I like most on a gravel bike is stuff you *could* ride on a road bike but it would just be a bit shit. There's a surprising amount of that stuff about but it's often linked with more tarmac than you'd typically want to ride on an MTB.

FWIW even though I really like drop bars I don't think they're the be all and end all so if you prefer flat bars then just stick with them.

I also don’t get why road bikes in general have to be so short and twitchy when their job is by and large going very fast in straight or nearly straight lines.

Not true. There are lots of times the lively handling of a roadbike helps - in a bunch, on poor road surfaces, cornering fast. Riding a road bike with a geometry that suits your riding style is a great experience.

Going back to my Tour Divide example, some people fit aero bars to MTBs and some people bulk up gravel style bikes and as far as I recall, the MTB (and of course rider) is most often fastest

Tyre size is the important thing for something like that, 29ers rule whatever the bar type. And on a shorter ride a bigger tyre + wheel is always going to allow more speed and grip esp downhill than an average gravel bike tyre.

probably a good illustration of what gravel bikes are sold as (long distance in comfort and speed), but not really being that good at IMO

You're basing that opinion on one test ride if a bike which sounds like it didn't fit you? 😎

I treat my gravel bike for what it is, a road bike with slightly bigger tyres and slightly lower gears. My road bike would be horrible if I stuck loads of luggage on it (that's why tourers exist) and similarly my road bike isn't really much fun if I just want to go for a gentle bumble.

Perhaps what gravel bikes are actually 'good' for is just too specific a niche for many, and yet... I seem to find endless fantastic gravel riding everywhere I go and am rarely tempted to dust off the 29er. Weird

re the bars, a flat bar with bar ends is almost the same position to ride in, that MOST people will ride in using dropped bars on a gravel bike.

But no. They’re poopy

Would sir like a growacet prescription? 😀

I think gravel bikes are great in the UK as long as you have enough rubber. I suspect less than 45c is going to limit what you can do and how fast in a lot of places, unless you are very light. And given that a lot of our off-road is in places where no-one wants to put a tarmac road, lower gears are probably going to be useful.

You CAN ride singletrack or technical things on them if you want, but that’s done by people who just want the challenge. They’re not actually good at it.

This pretty much sums it up for me too

My cx bike makes the woods at the back of Nationwide come alive, and that’s good enough for me.

I’m crap at being a proper mountain biker but drop bar bikes seem to work for me right now. They make tame off-road more interesting/fun and don’t feel sluggish which I hate about my mtb.

You CAN ride singletrack or technical things on them if you want, but that’s done by people who just want the challenge. They’re not actually good at it.

Is this true though? If you're not braking or going over bumps, I reckon a drop bar bike would actually be faster on a lot of singletrack (granted, not technical terrain). And it's amazing how much of the 'right' sort of singletrack actually exists where drop bars feel fast and fun.

re the bars, a flat bar with bar ends is almost the same position to ride in, that MOST people will ride in using dropped bars on a gravel bike.

... except wider, and more upright, and you don't have the brakes and gears at your fingertips.

I've dicked about endlessly with flat bars and bar ends trying to make my 29er more like my gravel bike, but nothing feels as ergonomic as a proper drop bar set up (but I haven't fallen for the slammed stem nonsense, my drops are at a useable height)

The red at Dalby is quite fun on a gravel bike with the exception of a couple of drops that are easy rolls on an MTB and “no thanks I value my wheels / chain ring / skin” on a gravel bike.

Sherwood Pines red would be mint.

The red at Dalby is quite fun on a gravel bike with the exception of a couple of drops that are easy rolls on an MTB and “no thanks I value my wheels / chain ring / skin” on a gravel bike

That's the rub though, on a fast HT, you see a sneaky trail when passing a wood, you can jump on and check it out, if it gets a bit rooty or rocky it's ok, but on the gravel bike you've lost that option, you just keep going down the fire road having your soul sucked out of your brain

You do have to peer at geometry tables a bit.
My experience is that we've one CX bike - steep angles and very rigid.
My 'do it all' curly worly bike looks identical. Indeed it's within millimetres of the CX bike in many ways....apart from head angle. The front wheel is kicked out a fair way. Soooooo much more stable and more intuitive.

I was chatting to a friend on a bike tour who was desperate to persuade me that a fast, really fast handling road bike was what I needed. It apparently 'nips around' and 'bat of an eyelid and it's turning' yaddayadda. I challenged him that at 30mph, like a modern mountain bike, would stable and carving not be better for most riding? Nippy is maybe great in the TDF peloton, less so rattling around Highland roads that we were on at the time...

Curly worly bars, I'm still meh on. Mrs_oab is back on flats, and much prefers being able to reach brake levers. (Yes we did space them in and get bike shop to check our set up. Thier advice - tiny hands and shifting or braking wasn't the best...)

Oh, and +1 on the bikes are for totally different riding.

MTB = bumpy tracks, single track, 'proper' mountain rides.

Curly wurly do it all bikes = roads, tracks, tours, commuting, shopping etc. Mine is not really 'gravel' set up, with 36mm nearly slick tyres, but it's amazing what it gets up and down. However, I live in a place where we can maximise it's use from our door.

That’s the rub though, on a fast HT, you see a sneaky trail when passing a wood, you can jump on and check it out, if it gets a bit rooty or rocky it’s ok, but on the gravel bike you’ve lost that option, you just keep going down the fire road having your soul sucked out of your brain

Au contraire. One, why wouldn’t you nip down an interest sneaky trail? I have. Sometimes it doesn’t work. Two, why were you restricting yourself to the fire road in the first place. Gravel bikes on singletrack are great - just keep the bars high enough to stay in the drops.

PS - I also have a fast hard tail. And a full suss. But given my skills are probably better than my confidence at speed, gravel bikes on tech trails have their advantages.

Toe overlap can obviously be more of an issue if you have big feet or like to ride with your foot further forward on the pedal. Mudguards make this even worse.

Toe overlap can be properly dangerous when ridden off road. Less of an issue on road.

I think a racey hardtail with semi slicks is the best type of bike for fast off-road that can also ride more technical trails.

I can get down most of my local trails on my cross bike but it's not fast nor easy on the more challenging trails.

It’s interesting how popular gravel bikes are given the number of posters on this thread who say they are rubbish. 🙄

Given the "Gravel Worlds" this week, the best gravel bike is actually a road bike.

You seen something like the Evil Chamois Hagar? Bit of a bastard child, but no toeverlap and a circa 66° HA.

OP: whereabouts do you live/ride?
Maybe a gravel bike doesn't "work" in your locality...?

When you say ‘good off road’ what do you mean? They’re not for singletrack or anything steep or interesting. They are for covering ground on fire roads, vehicle tracks and the like. You CAN ride singletrack or technical things on them if you want, but that’s done by people who just want the challenge. They’re not actually good at it.

Exactly this. Of course they are not as good on MTB off road stuff but that is not what they are for. They can do it, just as I do it on my brakeless fixed gear but I am not going to tell anyone my bike is ideal for it.
And if 'best' means fastest and a gravel bike is ridden on road and fire roads and the like the gravel bike will just simply be faster and in many cases a road bike with slightly bigger tyres will be faster (better?) still.
If best means more suitable to a particular rider who doesn't like drop bars, doesn't want to go at the optimum speed for their power then that bike may not be a gravel bike.

I also don’t get why road bikes in general have to be so short and twitchy when their job is by and large going very fast in straight or nearly straight lines.

All my road bikes are planted and stable at speeds up to the UK national speed limit. The are also very easy to change line and move around on.
Though, if you try to steer by sawing on the bars and are holding on for grim death, they do get a bit lively, but then, so do mountain bikes.

Even gravel double track was terrifying and I struggled to get any speed up for fear of all things bad

This surprises me even more, i've been riding on gravel roads on my road bike (23 or 25mm tyres, 90's race geo, rim brakes) for the last 15 years, as that what i have here, almost every road ride includes gravel and double track. I only swapped to a new school geo with bigger clearance because i wanted bigger tyres (32mm now) and discs for when it's hooling it down, i can also get studded tyres now. 50 kph is fine.

Did you have the saddle wedged right up your baackside and your knuckles grazing the front tyre?

even tow paths and long forest roads.
Nah, cross and gravel bikes are chunks faster than MTBs on trails like that.

I’ve owned a couple of gravel bikes over the years. Genesis Day One Disc, Cotic Escapade, NS RAG+ and Genesis Fugio. On the Marple canal my Stooge, Soul and now Titus Fireline are all just as fast but roughly a bazillion times more comfortable.

For anyone used to riding relatively modern MTB’s they just feel like road bikes if you don’t ride actual road bikes. I think they’re the best thing for commuting or just travelling about. Other than that not for me but your mileage may vary. I’d love a go on the Evil one though. Proper head angle and no toes scraping the front wheel. There’s just no need for that shit.

Given the “Gravel Worlds” this week, the best gravel bike is actually a road bike.

The best gravel race bike.
Doesn't mean it's best gravel bike for other rides.
🤔

It’s interesting how popular gravel bikes are given the number of posters on this thread who say they are rubbish. 🙄

Fat bikes a few years ago, single speed before that. Marketing innit!

The MinorTaur blue trail at CyB is a hoot on a gravel bike. Flicking the back wheel round, popping off little rises, accelerating hard out of corners without the weight of a bigger bike holding you back. It's good old fashioned fun, and that's what I ride bikes for.

I also enjoyed singlespeed for many years so maybe I am a marketeer's wet dream. Never rode a fat bike though.

Aye I’ve had 2 gravel bikes(sucked in by the spiel) thought the first maybe wasn’t gravelly enough and was shit. Got a newer up to date gravelly one it was just as shit !!

Hardtail for me 🙂

Had a few gravel bikes. Had tons of hardtails, including very light weight XC…..
For rides like the ridgeway and SDW, the gravel bike was fine. But it was much more comfortable on the 100mm hardtail. I don’t think there was much in it time wise.
I ride Delemere quite a lot, most of the singletrack is fine on the gravel bike, but again it’s quicker on the hardtail…..
But I have a 10 mile road ride to get to the trail and there’s tons of fire roads around Delemere, so the gravel bike makes a lot of sense, I just accept it’s limitations.
My gravel bike only takes 42mm tyres, I would like wider but fear that wider tyres will make the road side of my rides a boring slog.

I ride a cross bike as my 'gravel' and road bike.

Now it has tubeless and inserts I think it's really good for a lot of local singletrack that my mtb is slow on. Tighter corners, closer trees, lots of accelerations required. Also great in mud, muddy fields etc (of course!) Plus if you come across a set of steps, unrideable climb, styles etc it's so much easier to shoulder and carry

Wouldn't agree drop bar bikes are poopy off road but there is a learning curve

Separate road wheelset that swaps over to cx race wheels for the winter. Found I am very comfortable doing towpaths etc on 30c slicks

Trying to smash out a ride with lots of rocky bridleways on any drop bar, rigid bike with skinny tyres does seem a bit niche though!

My gravel bike is also a cx bike, 40c at the front 35c on the rear. I use it most weeks around Surrey hills and bridle ways and it’s fine. Did the Nirvana cycles killer loop on it on Sunday, wasn’t terrified at any point.

I have a fast hardtail (Canyon Grand Canyon) but haven’t really used it much and the full sus hasn’t been used in a couple of years. Cx gets much more use and is much nicer to get out to the trails on.

Tldr different people like different thing

Surely the answer is to balance different attributes?
And at the end of the day, any bike will do.
https://singletrackworld.com/shop/rough-stuff-fellowship-archives-2nd-edition/

I once bought a bike the wrong size & unsuited to the terrain I was riding, when I decided I'd been sucked in by marketing I went on a forum to seek solace in rubbishing a whole genre of bikes I don't understand.

I've ridden most of the mountain bike trails in & around Ladybower/ Hope Valley on my gravel bike, they weren't all fun or easy but now it's the only bike I have & perfect for the riding I do.

I don't get super enduro bikes, doesn't mean they are wrong or just for people too afraid to commit to DH.

For years a lot of people were searching for the best 'do it all bike'.IMHO gravel bikes are as close as you will get,but,and it's a big but,they also need to match the type of riding that you do most and available terrain.
Commuter (on crap roads) - Yes
Tourer - Yes
Winter road bike - Yes
Chain gangs ( with double chainring and skinny tyres) - Yes
Forest roads,canal paths and tame single track - Yes
*Downhill course - No
*Rock Gardens - No
*Lots of tree roots - No

*All depends on skilz and determination

😃

will make the road side of my rides a boring slog.

Isn’t that what road riding is supposed to be?

(Runs and hides).

All about compromise at the end of the day. I’ve stuck with a 130mm HT as my only bike. I hate riding on roads anyway so nothing is going to improve that aspect and I find a HT to be a lot comfier than anything else and the best all rounded for where I live. If I could afford I’d possibly get another gravel bike and start commuting and going for exploratory bimbles.

For those whining this thread was clearly started as a piss take so cheer up. Typical miserable roadies 😉

Fat bikes a few years ago, single speed before that. Marketing innit!

Clearly those bikes had their time in the sun, but they were only ever niche markets. Gravel bikes are all over the place. Something like a fat bike remains a curiosity.

Why do people who like their gravel bike, and the type of riding they do on their gravel bike, feel the need to "sell it" to those who don't?? If you don't like riding a skinny tyred, curly barred bike offroad, then don't ****ing buy one! Simple.
My "gravel bike" is actually called an Adventure Bike, cos the word gravel meant something you put on your driveway back when I bought it. I'd have it as my only bike, if that was something I had to do. But I don't give a toss what anyone else rides! 😛

Build something that works for you. For this type of riding I personally like old school mtb geo with haddlebars of my choice. Some wide semi slicks.

Sounds like you would like drops so take that route. Embrace the journey of creating the bike that works for you. Don't listen to the marketing ****arketers and pushing a solution.

What makes a 'gravel bike'?

Subjectives and compromises, adjusted to taste

Trying to smash out a ride with lots of rocky bridleways on any drop bar, rigid bike with skinny tyres does seem a bit niche though!

For me this is the thing - in parts of the country the rocky bridleways are a large portion of the trails.

I think I lucked out, because I fell for the marketing* and now have a bike that's perfect for me and my riding i.e. across fields, some road, bridleways and trails which are on the less technical side.

*I'd rather forget about the expensive mistake that was plus-sized tyres, but some love 'em.

90s mountain bike with 40mm slicks (triple chainset optional), Ritchey Kyote bars up front, and a set of bar ends mounted in the middle so that you can get all aero when you need to. You can probably be on the road for less than £200.

26 ain't dead!

What makes a ‘gravel bike’?

Objectively what I have learnt from this thread is "road bike with big tyres".

That was the main goal of the thread for and not to bash gravel bikes. ^ That was my interpretation on a quick test ride and looking at geo charts and I haven't seen anything here that challenges that.

All those who say they like the challenge of riding a gravel bike on some off-road bits I wonder if they may also "feel the trails come alive" with a rigid 29er? Maybe both work relative to whatever you are most used to and it becomes a question of bar preference more than anything.

Interestingly the Cycling Weekly review of the Evil gravel bike raised another point I had wondered about which was despite the edgy marketing and slack angles, it is still hard work off road due to the road position/ fit and drop bars which make it hard to get the front wheel out of holes and not just plough in to everything.

I think I've come to the conclusion that the gravel dream the marketeers are selling is BS for me and if I were looking at a non-technical off road route like say KAW then I'd be better suited to a rigid 29er with fast tyres and if I fancy some curly bar speed then I'd go full aero weenie with a modern "race" bike

DanW
Free Member
What makes a ‘gravel bike’?

Objectively what I have learnt from this thread is “road bike with big tyres”.

quite a lot of gravel bikes now are like mountain bikes with dropped bars

Why do people who like their gravel bike, and the type of riding they do on their gravel bike, feel the need to “sell it” to those who don’t?? If you don’t like riding a skinny tyred, curly barred bike offroad, then don’t **** buy one! Simple.

This is probably half of it, but then I don't get why those who don't get on with them seem to want to knock them so much either. If I came on here saying I'd bought a 10 inch travel downhill bike, and I'd found it was rubbish at riding uphill and therefore it was rubbish and everyone who liked bikes like that was daft, I'd be roundly told to get in the sea, I suspect.

I like mine, it works for me. There's a lot of non-technical bridleways round the edge of fields round here linked up with drags on the road. I don't particularly like MTB bars for long stints on the road or non-technical bits, but others do *shrug*. I'd take the MTB for a weekend away in the Peak District, though...

personally I find road and gravel tracks are the dull bits in between the bits I enjoy riding, I’m lucky, where I ride there’s no end of the sort of riding I enjoy. I can’t see the point of downgrading the capability of the bike to make the dull bits more interesting. It just seems reductive [to me] I guess that may be different if one had different terrain.

Having said that I still think that HT with suspension and decent geometry would still be preferable to a rigid drop bar bike off road. I just think it’s a better tool for the job

Sometimes using the best tool for the job is not the point though.

I like full suss, hard tails, gravel bikes , road bikes etc. I even play with TT bikes.

I like riding the same trails on different types of bike and getting a slightly different experience.

I don’t like jumping doubles or gaps.  I don’t heal as well as I did 30 years ago.

quite a lot of gravel bikes now are like mountain bikes with dropped bars

I’ve read this a few times but other than the Evil I’ve not seen anything that would fit this description unless we’re talking MTB’s from fifteen years ago. They’re still very much road bike leaning.

Sometimes using the best tool for the job is not the point though.

I have to say that I just don’t understand that philosophy of riding. It’s just a bit too “Calvinist ” for my taste.

Sometimes using the best tool for the job is not the point though.

I have to say that I just don’t understand that philosophy of riding. It’s just a bit too “Calvinist ” for my taste.

I agree, personally. Using something that's poorly designed for a task does not fill me with fun. If I want to make my riding harder I can just go faster and get more fun from the speed at the same time.

Re gravel bikes I think that the riding position that makes them good on road and fast stuff - head down road position - puts too much weight over the front wheel to be secure on technical things. So once you make the riding position higher and shorter you may as well be on an MTB. My rigid bike has steep angles but it's longer than a road bike (I sized up slightly by choosing large, I can usually choose between M and L) and I've chosen a relatively narrow flat bar and low stem. This makes it a true hybrid of a gravel bike and a modern MTB, and it's the kind of bike I think a lot of people would love. But they aren't being marketed as UK style adventure bikes - Salsa even stopped making them.

Having said that I still think that HT with suspension and decent geometry would still be preferable to a rigid drop bar bike off road. I just think it’s a better tool for the job

It is, but I really don't like riding suspension bikes on road much at all, even locked out. They're just not as positive feeling. FS frames flex more and and often front suspension doesn't fully lock out anyway.

The point for me is where I live. I want to ride a bike from my door, traffic free. I don't have any gnar trails from my door and roads are shit, so unless I'm specifically going out with some mates I don't particularly like riding the roads on my own. I do sometimes but prefer to be off road

What I do have on my doorstep is loads of rough but fairly flat canal tow paths and bridleways. Too rough for a road bike, (I've ridden these paths with 25, 28, 32, 35 & 40mm tyres. 35 upwards is ok but still a bit uncomfortable in places at 40mm) but not rough enough or hilly enough for a full on MTB. I had a gen 2 cotic Solaris with 100mm then 120mm suspension. This was fine to ride but I always thought rigid and drop bars would be better.

My gravel bike with 2.3" tyres is great for this sort of riding. I might try it with some swept back handle bars in the future as, I'm not wedded to drop bars, but the drops do get me into a nice position.

And that's it. Gravel bikes work where I am. A rigid or short HT would still be fine, but I like the racier nature of the gravel bike.

I don't really like the name gravel bike but it needs a name so....

I was chatting to a friend on a bike tour who was desperate to persuade me that a fast, really fast handling road bike was what I needed. It apparently ‘nips around’ and ‘bat of an eyelid and it’s turning’ yaddayadda.

He may be wrong about it being what you want, but he's bang on about the appeal of a proper road bike.

More relaxed "endurance" road bikes can just be a bit dull by comparison, IME. And wide tubeless tyres mean racy bikes are more comfortable than endurance bikes used to be anyway.

But if/when I get a gravel bike, I'll want something more relaxed and off-road focused - as I already have a nice sharp road bike.

All in all the whole topic of gravel bikes would be easy to rationalise if we were talking about optimised designs and we all had similar handling ability or to ride smooth+light, take the rough sections w/o getting beaten up etc.

I see 2 things crossing over with typical gravel bikes - underbiking is a valid way to get your kicks and road race bikes are a brilliantly optimised design. If you enjoy riding a light, agile drop bar bike fast on tarmac and find underbiking fun then mixing up those two in one ride is generally where these bikes find fans. It's what they are to me, YMMV. You might just want a comfier road bike which is equally valid since road bikes are mostly based on that optimised race design while few of us are optimised for actual road racing.

The aspects of gravel that I question are the marketing ads that clam full go-anywhere freedom and wide off-road or load carrying ability, or show steep shreddy terrain being ridden on them. There's more stretch there than the marketing of Enduro, DH and road bikes. The vast majority of gravel bikes I see being ridden on average byway/bridleway downhills are going very slowly ridden by riders who look precarious or even a bit scared. Whatever the rider skill, the bike format is a real handicap in those situations (but not nec a negative if underbiking appeals).
Funny thing is gravel bikes don't even fulfill the 'ATB' promise that mountain bikes of the 80s did imo - the marketing depts have gone too far in some cases. I know I rode trickier off-road terrain and faster downhill on my late 80s Marin than pretty much any gravel bike around now that isn't a flared bar 29er, and it wasn't just being younger and more fearless. Again YMMV.

Gravel bikes are all terrain bikes for the post-road bike boom era. Early MTBs were all-terrain bikes for the post-hippy era?