[Closed] Buy your second hand frame in the USA!!

Man yeah, what are they thinking?
Imagine having a business contract in place with one of their best global customers and not wanting to ignore it by selling you a frame, geez.

I was in the states, buying a frame in the states, but they wouldn't sell it as I had a UK credit card.

Within Europe such practices are illegal, and a restriction of trade.

You buy a frame in the UK from an authorised dealer so you have local contact if anything goes wrong.

No doubt if you bought direct from the states and you had an issue you'd expect them to pay postage there and back to sort it for you.

Shock horror business wants to export and provide proper local support for end users.

I can't imagine Harrods refusing to sell to Americans, can you??

They would have sold me a full price frame, just not a sale one.

[quote=dantsw13 ]I've only just calmed down after ....... last year
What an interesting and full life you must lead.

I can see the OP stamping his feet and shouting ''It's just not FAIR!"

Company's can set their own rules for who and how they sell their products look at Trek in uk with 'no mail order' rules.

Trust STW to get to the nub of an argument

It's not just unfair, it's also illegal under EU law.

I bought one of my frames (an Evil Sovereign) new for £420 from the USA 6 years ago because Silverfish thought £850 was a perfectly reasonable amount to charge. It's out of warranty now anyway, and has been fine, so who cares? I wasn't fobbed off for an extra £430 when I didn't need to be. If it had been a reasonable mark up then fine- I'd have paid maybe £600 for it when the dollar was at 50p.

Looks like you got a good deal dantsw13. Not realy getting those posters giving you grief ❓ It almost sounds like you've done them out of money LOL. Perhaps they should get a life.

Trust STW to get to the nub of an argument

**** that!

Why do that when there is a person here that we can belittle in an delusional effort to improve our own self esteem

Getting back on topic..

FWIW I've been in a mood for nearly thirteen years about how quickly my toothbrush has worn out..
I'm refusing to replace it as a mark of protest

That'll teach 'em

Ah - some sense!! Order is restored in the universe. I am dead chuffed with my new(to me) Heckler though. Pics may emerge next week of it built up in Alps mode ready for the summer!

I bought my TRC new from the USA. it was basically half price, gotta be prepared to get shafted if it breaks though!

Good on you for working the system to your advantage~ sounds like you got a bargain and made some folk jealous.

Surely U.S. RRPs include distribution and warranty, with staff and premises to pay for, so how is it that an additional 40% is dolloped on top to add to the insult of the weather we have to endure.

Many companies in the UK and the USA will not deliver to an address that is not that of the cardholder.

A great way to buy, I got a 2003 Heckler in 2005 for £250. It needed a new swingarm and SC USA gave me one - Jungle refused as I was not the original owner, which I thought was a bit crap.

I bought my TRC new from the USA. it was basically half price, gotta be prepared to get shafted if it breaks though!

I bought a SC Blur XC in the US a few yrs ago on a UK CC with no problems at all. I then moved back to the UK.

I then broke the rear-stay, which SC UK fixed under warranty. SC UK know I bought the frame in the US.

Personally I think the OP just caught someone who was having a bad day & didnt want to sell their stuff to him. Bizarre I know but sh1t happens.

edit: I've also bought a SC Nomad from Competitive Cyclist in one of their sales & had it exported to the UK. I saved about £500 including all taxes. So it can be done..

SC USA would sell me a full price frame, but the terms and conditions of the fire sale required a US card for payment " Due to agreements with our international suppliers"

Rip off Britain.

Errr, rip off USA if anything 😉

How? The high prices SC charge in the UK were the reason not to let UK cc holders buy cheaper frames in the states. What is the justification for a 40-50% markup in the UK?

It's an American company refusing to supply you, not a uk one?

*everything* in the uk costs 30-40% more than the equivalent uk price. 25-30% of that is import duties and VAT.

25-30% of that is import duties and VAT.

I still don't fully understand why UK prices can be so high. Normally the £=$ on most things. Surly the frames that reach the UK are imported from the factory where they are produced? Am I missing something?

There is vat and extra duty that makes up some of the uk rrp
Its not all going to the uk importers.

No doubt if you bought direct from the states and you had an issue you'd expect them to pay postage there and back to sort it for you.

Shock horror business wants to export and provide proper local support for end users

*everything* in the uk costs 30-40% more than the equivalent uk price. 25-30% of that is import duties and VAT.

I still don't fully understand why UK prices can be so high. Normally the £=$ on most things. Surly the frames that reach the UK are imported from the factory where they are produced? Am I missing something?

Ska-49 - it's not as simple as that.

Taking Santa Cruz as an example. SC sell direct to US shops who sell to US retail.
Elsewhere in the world - SC sell to an importer, the importer transports the frame to their country, pays the shipping, duty and taxes, then the importer sells the frame to a shop who sell it to retail.

That's a lot of additional expenses to incur.

Sounds like you got a good deal but SC choosing not to sell you the first time has nothing to do with Britain or EU Law. The main reason being that as you seemed to mention, you were in the US.

Drac - I completely agree. I was merely pointing out what happened to me is illegal between two EU members, as an example of how it was not ethical practice. They obviously can do it, as they did.

I still don't fully understand why UK prices can be so high. Normally the £=$ on most things. Surly the frames that reach the UK are imported from the factory where they are produced? Am I missing something?

[i]I still don't fully understand why UK prices can be so high. Normally the £=$ on most things. Surly the frames that reach the UK are imported from the factory where they are produced? Am I missing something? [/i]

Yes, people here think that a SC is a 'boutique' brand 🙄

A bit like BMW. Here the dealer tells you what to pay and what spec you are getting, in Germany I was offered a discount on any.

I still don't fully understand why UK prices can be so high.

There's no competition. Where there could be, it's locked down.

* overseas brand has an exclusive deal with a UK importer, the brand needs this to get established, and the importer in effect controls the distribution chain ie the network of LBS they supply
* the brand forbids anyone else (eg retailers in their own country) from shipping to the UK, probably on pain of having their supply cut off. This is probably part of their deal with the importer
* the importer will only supply specific shops, and can basically control the price

All the various parties will tell you this is in your best interest, but if they were really working in your best interest they'd open up the distribution chain from these exclusive interests and let it find its own level. Basically there is no free market.

There is an upside - this system allows a space for the home-growns too operate in, eg On One, Cotic, Genesis, Singular, Whyte and so on. Canyon also get in under the radar.

But if the product you fancy is American, you're stuffed. Even hardtails like Niners and Canfields are knocking on to 900 quid. You may be happy to import a hardtail and build it yourself, but the option is not avaiable to you.

Unless you go to the US yourself!! I've also bought back GoPro Blacks from the states for mates for a good deal less!!

I had similar when I tried to buy a Cove Hummer frame direct . Price was just over £600 compared to £1500 over here . Got around to deciding size when someone else came on the phone and said as I was in the UK I would have to source one here . This was after I had discussed shipping costs .Would have been no more than £750 I reckon .

dan yes, unless, from ^^:

I was in the states, buying a frame in the states, but they wouldn't sell it as I had a UK credit card.

I've not heard of that before.

Also my understanding (could be wrong) is that if you use the bike before you import it to the UK it's no longer 'new' and isn't subject to VAT or import duty.

The downside is you take a punt on warranty. That's part of the equation.

I once imported a high end major brand snowboard from the US (to France) and saved about 40% compared to the shop down the street. That was the difference between affordability and walking away.

Also my understanding (could be wrong) is that if you use the bike before you import it to the UK it's no longer 'new' and isn't subject to VAT or import duty.

Thats typical 'some guy in the pub said' rumour. It would be subject, tho you could argue at a slightly reduced rate due to not being new... until they find the receipt in your bag. Hence why lots of people buying stuff post receipts home, slightly naughty tho not exactly crime of the century.

How dare a punter want to get himself a good deal, it's not like he may have worked hard for his money and wants to get the most bang for his buck. Whilst the most appropriate response from those trying to do business here, in no doubt challenging times, would be to congratulate the op in getting himself sorted, and then explain the economic reality of trading over here and then to promote the added value the distributor and lbs network brings to the customer. What we get is a sneering response from a distributor and the usual bitter STW'ers, says a lot really.

I may have missed something here, but if a US company refuses to accept a UK credit card while you're in the US and you want the item delivered to a US address, then why not just get a friend or colleague with a US credit card to buy it on your behalf and give them the money ?

On a frame how much do you think a distributor and then shop should/could make? Don't forget shipping, tax, vat, handling and possible dumping tax in some instances. 🙂

I bought a second hand set of Reba 29's from one forumite and had them delivered to another Canadian forumite, he posted them on again to me in UK, I sent him a few extra £ to cover the hassle. I still ended up saving a lot over UK prices, as this was 6-7 years ago when 29er bits were rarer over her.

On MTBR, a guy in the US has just been complaining that he can get an On One Fatty cheaper from the UK than in the US.

MTQ Graham. I travel to the states a lot with my job. I do have mates over there, but don't like asking financial favours. Also, it was the last day of their sale. The really annoying bit was that they would have sold me it at USRRP, the agreement with foreign importers only stopped them selling me the sale price frame.

As it turns out, I now have a mint second hand frame for an even better price, so SC can go take a hike for my cash!!

Ah, OK, I guess it depends on how well you know someone as to whether you want to involve them in your finances or not.
The "Do you want to buy this on your credit card, so you don't actually pay for it for at least 30 days, and I will do you a bank transfer so the money goes in your account today ?" approach is always worth a try.

He is some way beyond actually buying stuff now. I think he is well on his way to bringing down the international bicycle market one second hand frame at a time. 😐

When I was in the US a few years back I very nearly bought a Yeti ASR5 full build as it would have worked out a great deal cheaper than over here, even with shipping etc. I would have gotten a member of my family (American) to send it on for me afterwards. The guy in the shop had no problem with this.

Apologies for the dreary anecdote.

I've just found my hindsight spectacles with adapt and overcome lenses. Wearing them gave the idea of getting some sort of bankers draft (or merkin equivalent) or even cash to buy the bike you couldn't buy with a UK card.

Looks like it worked out in the end though. Enjoy the new bike 😀

if they refuse a UK credit card then just pay with cash.

As for 40% mark up...well there is 20% tax and then import duties, shipping costs and then the importer kind of needs to make some profit or are expecting them to work for free and provide free customer service?

When buying from america there are often sales taxes that we don't realise are there as they are different depending on what state you are in. Americans understand this, we often miss this small point when comparing prices.

But yes, buying direct does save money - the importers cut and tax if you manage to avoid it but that's tax evasion I guess.

My original point in the OP was really a bit of a PSA to anybody who may go to/know somebody who goes to the USA that bargainous deals can be had on 2nd hand US brand frames.

Obviously, being STW, the thread departed stage left onto a minor topic!!!

Anyway, I'm off to my shed to build my new baby!!

well going back to 2nd hand frames - yes I have been very tempted but the risk of getting shafted is a lot higher as you can't exactly drive down to have it out with the seller.

But if you are over there and can inspect it yourself or have someone else who an then go for it.

I don't object to distributors milking a reasonable amount off it, but the frame I bought was more than double the price over here. If the distributor bought it at trade (say 30% off the US RRP) then added all taxes it still wouldn't be that much by the time it lands in the shops.

Jungle are by far and away the worst for this, although looking at my story about my Evil and the story about the Cove above (and the prices of Rocky Mountains now they're dealt with by Evans) it seems Silverfish are also bad.

You can pick up secondhand heckler frames in the uk for that price??

I was looking at a mint 2011 frame for not much more than that but it also came with a few bits too?

I wouldnt of had to lug it all the way back from the US either??

To be fair to silverfish, they have reduced the price of turner 5 spots this year. Obviously they are buying them cheaper, but they have passed the saving on. I very much doubt jungle would do the same.

Really?? My 2006/7 old style Heckler sold for £375. You often see 2010/11 good condition Hecklers go for £6-700, certainly not £330.

2013 Santa Cruz Bicycles Blur LT Carbon With FOX CTD Kashima $2899

$2899 - 30% = $2029.3 / 1.45 XE = £1399

£1399 + £50 shipping = £1449 + 5 ish % import duty (£75 ish) = £1524 + handling around £20 so £1544.

£1500 ish to get that frame here, add dealer margin of 30% ish minimum (£450 ish) £1950, and the distributor profit and VAT at 20% makes the frames about the right price. I'm not saying that its good value, but not the rip off by the distributor some claim.

2013 Santa Cruz Bicycles Blur LT Carbon With FOX CTD Kashima price $2899

(Ah, I see, that's what -30% is ?)

But how is it, Si, that you could sell a Chumba HX1 hardtail at £399 when in the US they're £329? If you can do that then surely Jungle can take in something similar.

2013 Santa Cruz Bicycles Blur LT Carbon With FOX CTD Kashima $2899

$2899 - 30% = $2029.3 / 1.45 XE = £1399

£1399 + £50 shipping = £1449 + 5 ish % import duty (£75 ish) = £1524 + handling around £20 so £1544.

Jungle won't be buying the frames at US RRP less 30%. Even the US shops will get a better deal. What about the US tax which is also non payable.

There was a lad on here called cooie selling a 2011 lime green one complete with headset etc for £475

Agree, some will be getting better deals on trade prices.

The fact is that the sales of these products are quite low volume, and when you consider advertising, sponsor ships, warranty work etc then it all adds up to expensive product.

Freeborn act as distributor and retailer for ellsworth and banshee and manage to sell them at a comparable to US price. So you do have to ask why SC, yeti and others are marked up so high.

475 is a lot more than 330, and that is a very good price - you don't see many go that cheap.

The fact is that the sales of these products are quite low volume

Due in no small part to them being very expensive. I nearly bought a Niner or a Ritchie, but walked away due to daft pricing and bought a Singular instead. That's Niner's loss really.

Thinking about this some more though it's not a such a bad thing. Four of the last 5 frames that have passed through my hands (Cotic, Dialled, Singular, Whyte) have been from British firms, tiny on the world stage. I'm glad they exist and the markup on US product coupled with distributor lock-in makes it easier for them.

Don't know if this would be useful to anyone, but I have used shipito.com to provide a US address, and forward parcels.

For a fee they will also buy items with their credit card, but I just used a UK credit card.

I got a snowboard that cost £250 in the UK for $120. It ended up at about £160 by the time shipping and customs were paid. The biggest bummer was TNT charging a flat £15 fee on top of the vat/import.

The crazy thing is that the board was made in Europe, by a European brand!

The shipping actually cost less through shipito than the online shop (who provided free delivey in the US).

I was in the states, buying a frame in the states, but they wouldn't sell it as I had a UK credit card.

This was specific to the terms of the "yard sale" promotion which I think was intended to be a bit of a treat direct from Santa Cruz for their US customers. There were some corking deals but they didn't really want to share them with penny pinching lawbreaking Englishmen - it's their call. I bet they still sold all the frames and they won't have lost any sleep.

If you'd have walked up to the factory with dollar bills, and faked an American accent you'd have been hit with the applicable sales tax even if you we're taking it out of state